[Article] EU agrees on single air traffic system plan

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-799926439-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews.asp

End to Shannon stopover sought by Continental
21/12/03 00:00
By Neil Callanan

A leading airline has come out in favour of the abolition of the Shannon stopover. Continental Airlines said that it supported an open skies aviation policy between Europe and the US.

The stopover is expected to be phased out when a new agreement is reached between the two sides, but the Irish government is fighting to delay its abolition.

"We would like to see the Shannon stopover rule abandoned, since we believe market forces rather the governments should dictate how we allocate our capacity," said Mike Carter, Continental's senior director for Britain and Ireland.

"However, whether or not this happens, we remain committed to serving both Dublin and Shannon from our New York/Newark hub, since both routes have been highly successful for us over the past five-and-a-half years."

Continental has operated the wide-bodied 235-seat Boeing 767-400ER on both the Dublin-New York and Shannon-New York routes during the summer months, rather than the normal 172-seat Boeing 757. Despite the 37 per cent capacity increase per aircraft, the airline said it has continued to record strong load factors on both routes. The airline does not publish figures for individual routes.

Continental would not comment on whether it would increase the number of cities it serves in the United States from Ireland if the stopover were abandoned. The airline has announced only one new transatlantic route for 2004, from New York to Edinburgh.

Continental chairman and chief executive Gordon Bethune said he believes one of the other main US carriers will go out of business next year. "There is going to be more and more consolidation. It will continue in the United States, and the routes and people will be absorbed by others," he told a news conference. "Sooner or later a competitor will go out of business."

Bethune said he did not believe low-fares airlines would target the transatlantic market. "They can probably fly transatlantic but you would probably have to swim the last half," he said.

Continental Airlines will probably break even next year, he said. He has previously said that the current and upcoming quarter would be a "tough six month period" for the airline.

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-408226223-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews-2FWorld.asp

EU agrees on single air traffic system plan
14/12/03 00:00
By John Regan in Brussels

European Union negotiators have agreed on a plan to consolidate air traffic control into a 'single European sky' to reduce flight delays, which cost airlines up to €1.9 billion a year.

The committee, made up of representatives of EU governments and the European Parliament, has outlined its plan to erase national borders in air space and assure cooperation between military and civilian authorities.

Passenger demand fell after the terrorist attacks in September 2001 and an economic slowdown, which temporarily eased congestion in the sky.

After 14 years of lobbying, the industry needs a new control system as air traffic rebounds.

According to the European Commission, which proposed the `single sky' rules in October 2001, the patchwork of national air traffic systems adds to air traffic delays.

"It will help us build the new Europe in the air sector," said EU transport commissioner Loyola de Palacio. She said the rules will improve safety as well as efficiency in routing flights.

The negotiators struck a compromise between EU governments seeking to retain sovereignty over their airspace and the European Commission and European Parliament seeking to create `cross-border functional blocks' for air traffic control.

The air traffic rules must receive final approval in a vote of the European Parliament.

Capt'n Midnight

Will this affect the so called "open skies" deal where US airlines share rights with EU airlines - except since the US is one country and the EU many it ain't so open.

Will EU now be a single area
Or will we still have the discrepencies like Sardinia not being an internal flight (territory continuity?) for the purposes of jacking up the price of a ticket

Capt'n Midnight

Bethune said he did not believe low-fares airlines would target the transatlantic market. "They can probably fly transatlantic but you would probably have to swim the last half," he said.

Skytrain / Sir Freddie Laker

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/10/18/news_pf/Business/Airline_pioneer_Laker.shtml
also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddie_Laker
Left wing view http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samecris/eccrisis/eccris04.htm

BTW: aren't Virgin a "budget" airline in transatlantic terms ?

ZENER

aren't Virgin a "budget" airline in transatlantic terms ?

Not at all - not only do they serve drink to their passangers, they even supply it to their Pilots !!!!

tinky

gurramok

Continental like other airlines should not have to be restricted by the shannon stopover.

There should be free competition in the marketplace for airlines and passengers alike to choose whether they want to stop at shannon or not.

The stopover is monopolistic behaviour and should be abolished.

ZENER

The stopover is monopolistic behaviour and should be abolished.

I'm not quite sure that this is the case. This stopover is a throwback to when transatlantic flights were required to land at the nearest airfield. This was mainly due to the limited range of early trans-atlantic aircraft.

Even though the stopover has not been nessacary for the past 35 or 40 years, due to better aircraft, the status quo has been maintained by successive governments to appease voters in the area and without doubt it has stunted Irelands tourism growth potential.

If the current position is changed ( and I hope it will be ) then one must wonder what will become of Shannon Airport post brake-up! They currently rely heavily on these flights for their income.

I firmly believe that the ceasation of the stopover will serve to increase traffic from transatlantic routes and other routes like Asia thus increasing tourism potential for Ireland.

Tinky

Bluehair

The shannon stopover has been a political football as long as I can remember and the arguements are clearly in favour of the abolishment of this ridiculous policy.

From what I hear though at this point it's a question of 'when' rather than 'if' with our participation in the ongoing EU-US open skies negociations. There are apparently various carrots on the table for the region (grants etc.) from the EU if the gov can be convinced to jump on this matter rather than enivitably be pushed.

Something to replace the current traffic is the main aim of the shannon lobby but one idea I thought would be ideal would be a cargo hub. Shannon is ideally situated for a transatlantic cargo hub, its far enough from anywhere urban to avoid major night-flight restrictions, there's capacity galore and a long enough runway to handle the heavy aircraft plus land galore to build the required facilities!

Get the IDA involved (think of the jobs!) with some kind of participation from the EU (lets us give huge grants to whoever wants to build the facility) and you could be on to a real winner.

Whilst the big players have european hubs the potential advantages of working from Shannon could be worked to convince them it's a good idea! Any thoughts?

ZENER

Sounds like a terific idea in theory! The only downside is that the revenue it would generate would not be as large as that raised from passanger carriers.

The airport gets about 5 euro for each passanger that boards an aircraft plus the income from dutyfree/taxfree shopping, what would replace that ?.

Without tourists in the area many businesses in the vicinity - Shannon Great Southern for example - would not be able to survive.

When/If the airport becomes independant it will have a hard struggle to convince tourists to land there. It's in the middle of nowhere !

I can see Cork surviving OK, being in the middle of a large city etc. and close to one of the biggest tourist destinations in the area - Kerry.

Sure Cargo would be a good short term answer but tourists bring money with them to spend and that is what needs to be tapped IMO.

Tinky

parsi

Originally posted by tinky
I'm not quite sure that this is the case. This stopover is a throwback to when transatlantic flights were required to land at the nearest airfield. This was mainly due to the limited range of early trans-atlantic aircraft.

Even though the stopover has not been nessacary for the past 35 or 40 years, due to better aircraft, the status quo has been maintained by successive governments to appease voters in the area and without doubt it has stunted Irelands tourism growth potential.

I don't see how it has stunted tourism.. if anything it has given direct access to the Wesht of the country which is quite good for the American visitors.. it also provided good Shannon-Dublin links - I remember as a kid going on the inbound New York flight (a jumbo) from Shannon to Dublin as part of a school tour (return leg was by train) and it was cool meeting American people..(long time ago..)

.. when the stopover arument was running it was said that tourists would go to London and then to Dublin because it was faster to chnage planes in heathrow rather than spend 30 mins in Shannon- yeah right.

Also I'm sure Continental also have a problem with the fact that not only is there a stopover but there is also an agreement that goes something along the lines of Irish carriers and American carriers have to have the same number of flights so effectively Aer Lingus can throttle back growth by refusing to add services...

parsi

ZENER

I accept your view but my previous response was referring to Shannon as a cargo hub.

US carriers have for a long time objected to the Shannon stop-over maintaining that more capacity could be available were it to be abolished, The extra cost incurred by the stop-over has been a deterent to many of these carriers.

The US authorities at the moment dont permit many of the airports in it's country to be hubs to europe and the link below from the IHF indicates that this could soon change but will require the abolishing of the stop-over.

Irish Hotel Federation

Aside from that I personally believe Cork Airport (with a suitable runway extension) is a far nicer place for tourists to enter Ireland from the US. It's in the center of a major city close to hotels and beautiful countryside and also close to Kerry - a major tourist destination for US travellers.

Tinky

Victor

Originally posted by tinky
Aside from that I personally believe Cork Airport (with a suitable runway extension) is a far nicer place for tourists to enter Ireland from the US. It's in the center of a major city close to hotels and beautiful countryside and also close to Kerry - a major tourist destination for US travellers.

It is very difficult to extend the runway in Cork as the airport is on top of a hill. Large aircraft (747 etc.) can only land there when lightly loaded.

Bluehair

Working in the industry I can tell you for a fact that forcing tourist and business pax to stop in Shannon is a major irritation at the very least and a genuine incentive to fly via another airport at worst (30 mins in Shannon? You gotta be kidding, double that at least depending on the flight)

There is no 'tourism' arguement for Shannon either, what many seem to forget while you can legistate and insist the aircraft lands there you can't demand the tourists get off and spend some dollars in the local area/hotels! It artifically maintains some jobs in the airport and ancillary services but thats about it. The 'wesht' has many unique selling points to tourists but sending near empty aircraft between Dublin and Shannon is not one of them and does not contribute much.

The crux of the problem is that Shannon and Dublin are unique markets and Shannon has been an anchor around the neck of Dublin forcing any potential expansion for that region to consider the extra (unneccesary) cost of stopping in Shannon.

As Continental indicates (and a position I would take) market forces should dictate capacity. This would allow them and other airlines to serve the cities differently with increased services to Dublin non-stop (what the region wants) and more than likely more charter traffic to shannon (what the region needs).

Btw there is no such aggreement that allows Aer Lingus a say (directly or indirectly) in the amount of other airlines trans-atlantic growth. The only rule that applies unilaterally is the Shannon stopover. In fact while the stopover continues Aer Lingus is constrained in the number of US destinations it can have (it's currently at the limit) while any US carrier can fly from anywhere in the US to Ireland (as long as it obeys the 50% stopover rule.)

The sooner the stopover goes the better for Irish tourism and business links as a whole. I have my doubts it will be this year but would really hope it would be in time for summer 2005.

ZENER

I agree 100 %, I'll bow to your knowledge about the technicalities of the stop-over agreements, could you point me to more info on the matter ?

Maybe with next years cabinet reshuffle things will move on again, I believe 2005 would turn into 2009 if something isn't done this year (2004) to get the whole situation sorted !

It's bad enough that we are now one of the most expensive destinations in Europe for tourists - we must offset this by making life easier for visitors and not pamper to the needs of a few merely to justify their airports existance !!

@victor: not familiar with Corks geography so I stand corrected

Tinky

Sarsfield

AFAIK, another reason the airlines dislike the stopover is maintenance. Aircraft wear-and-tear, and therefore maintenance schedules are based to some extent on cycles (take-offs and landings) rather than time in the air.

Therefore, the Aer Lingus trans-Atlantic fleet (all of which has to deal with the Shannon stop), suffers much more much wear and tear as its competitors. This increases maintenance costs and decreases aircraft utilisation.

So our national airline suffers greatly as a result of this rule.

If the Shannon lobby was to concentrate on the future and look to increase direct European traffic (German & French tourists love the west as much as the Americans), and also look to develop a good feeder service from Dublin, they would really be doing something useful for the region.

Capt'n Midnight

IIRC Cork is very expensive for fuel - planes from the UK used to land with enough fuel for the return trip rather then buy it at Cork. (even accounting for the extra wear and tear 'cos of the heavier landing load)

Note: most planes can't land with a full load & full fuel.

ZENER

IIRC Cork is very expensive for fuel

Can't think of any reason why cork should be so expensive for fuel unless the fuel companies operate some form of cartel ! Any more info on this ? Where did you hear it ?

I'll check tomorrow at work if thats the case and post back here.

Tinky

Capt'n Midnight

This was going back a long time hopefully changed now. Something to do with it having to be trucked in from further away..

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
This was going back a long time hopefully changed now. Something to do with it having to be trucked in from further away..

Not really. The Whitegate refinery is in Cork and the journey isn't materially greater than the journey between Dublin Docks and Dublin Airport. In fact their is a fuel depot in Tivoli in Cork that could be used. It may be down to fewer fuel operators in Cork than Dublin and less competition / critical mass. I imagine much of the fuel through Dublin Port is sourced in the UK, aswell as Whitegate.

Cork has the advantage of being a few hundred feet higher than Dublin os Shannon, meaning less fuel is needed for takeoff.

Shannon has it's own fuel terminal for ships, so it can take fuel from a variety of suppliers.

There are plans to create a pipeline form Dublin Docks to Dublin Airport.

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-446989465-pageUrl--2FHome.asp

Compulsory US flights into Shannon set to be halved
01/02/04 00:00
By Niamh Connolly

The number of compulsory US flights into Shannon Airport will be halved by next summer in a radical change to the US-Ireland bilateral trade pact on the Shannon "stopover", The Sunday Business Post has learned.

The controversial dual gateway, which obliges half of all flights between the Republic and the US to land at Shannon Airport, brings 900,000 American passengers a year into the west of Ireland airport, and €10 million in revenue.

Representatives of the Irish government are to enter into negotiations shortly with Aer Lingus and US authorities to reduce the compulsory flight requirement by 50 per cent in summer 2005.

Aer Lingus and American airlines would no longer have to match each US flight into Dublin with a non-stop flight to Shannon. The obligation to land at Shannon would be reduced to a one-in-two requirement.

According to Aer Lingus, this will allow the carrier to negotiate more landing rights in the US beyond its current five gateways in New York, Chicago, Boston, Los Angeles and Washington.

An EU-US open skies agreement, set to come into effect next year, will ban special trade deals such as the Shannon stopover. It is understood that the Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan, believes a phased approach would allow the Shannon authorities seek new transatlantic and European markets.

However, any watering down of Shannon's dual gateway status - viewed as the engine of US multinational development in the west - will be fiercely resisted by businesses and politicians in the region. The gateway is seen by Shannon Development as a major driver of regional growth, and a factor for US multinationals choosing to locate in the west.

The national carrier, US airlines and tourist bodies believe that the Shannon stopover inhibits growth in the tourist market in Ireland. US airlines oppose giving Aer Lingus new routes until the Shannon gateway restriction is eased.

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-188707261-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews.asp

Frankfurt Hahn route may return to Shannon
08/02/04 00:00
By Niamh Connolly

The chairman designate of Shannon Airport has met Ryanair to discuss moving the budget airline's Frankfurt Hahn route back to Shannon from Kerry after Aer Rianta is dismantled.

Pat Shanahan, who is also chief executive of the Atlantic Technology Corridor (ATC), confirmed that he had met Ryanair, Aer Lingus and other major customers to discuss future possibilities.

"The major customers of Shannon are Aer Lingus and Ryanair," said Shanahan. "Obviously, we'll have to look at all possibilities to try to grow their traffic out of Shannon."

The ATC chief executive was appointed to the board of Aer Rianta pending legislation incorporating the new Shannon Airport Authority. He conceded that the Shannon designate board had no legal or corporate responsibilities yet, although the members had met twice to get to know each other and discuss future scenarios. Legislation to establish independent boards at Dublin, Shannon and Cork is due to come before the Dáil next month.

Meanwhile, another member of the new Shannon board, director designate Tadhg Kearney, has criticised last week's EC judgment against Ryanair. "From a regional point of view, this is not a good judgment and it sends the wrong signal," he said.

Kearney added that there was a difference between "secret" and "commercially sensitive" information on discount deals, and pointed out that the court did not rule against the payment of fees on the first day of a new route launch or payment of marketing fees.

Kearney said that the EU's transport committee would have to look at state aid, with a view to ensuring that the diversity of airlines and destinations remains.

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-447084261-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews.asp

Job cuts sought at Shannon
08/02/04 00:00
By Niamh Connolly

Aer Lingus is seeking voluntary redundancies among cabin crew at Shannon Airport, and has launched a scheme to relocate staff to Dublin.

The airline wants to cut the number of cabin crew at Shannon from 245 to 204 through redundancy or relocation. The trade union Impact said that it would fight any moves for compulsory relocation of staff.

A spokesman said there was "a surplus of cabin crew in Shannon in 2004, and they are needed in Dublin.

"There has been a voluntary severance package on the table and there is quite a bit of interest in that."

Aviation analysts link the move to an expected halving of the number of transatlantic flights required to land in Shannon by summer 2005.

The Shannon dual gateway agreement requires that every US-bound flight from Dublin must be matched by a flight out of Shannon.

The reduction in the number of flights from Shannon will pave the way for an EU/ US open skies agreement. This will allow the EU to negotiate directly with the US authorities on landing slots, and will ban special agreements such as the Shannon dual gateway.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
Cork has the advantage of being a few hundred feet higher than Dublin os Shannon, meaning less fuel is needed for takeoff.

The problem with that is that there is more fog occurences there than at Dublin and Shannon (Knock was built in an even worse place), the prospect of flight cancellations isn't appealing to airlines at all.

Victor

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/04/22/story143891.html

Brennan to express support for re-negotiation of 'open skies' deal
22/04/2004 - 7:52:33 AM

Transport Minister Seamus Brennan is expected to express his support for a re-negotiation of the "open skies" agreement between Ireland and the US during a visit to Shannon Airport today.

Under the current arrangement, Aer Lingus can fly to five US cities, but US airlines can fly into Ireland from any American airport.

Aer Lingus has indicated that it could open five new routes to the US if this situation was relaxed.

Mr Brennan is expected to announce today that moves to address the matter should get underway in the coming weeks.

He is also expected to say that any future plan must includes guarantees about traffic levels at Shannon Airport.

secret_squirrel

hmm I can see lots of things to look forward too with a single atc system.

European ATC staff striking when its imposed/against it beforehand.
Unless they centralise it somewhere as well then Im assuming we'll still have to bypass france or italy when they head for the picket lines?

Woohoo more delays.

(Im in a cynical mood tonight)

therecklessone

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
hmm I can see lots of things to look forward too with a single atc system.

European ATC staff striking when its imposed/against it beforehand.
Unless they centralise it somewhere as well then Im assuming we'll still have to bypass france or italy when they head for the picket lines?

Already happened. The French went on strike last year for a day (*i think*) in opposition.