Swastika to be banned by Microsoft?

Yoda · 14-12-2003 12:58pm #1

The following story is really astonishing. The "offending" characters in question are, I take it, the left-facing and right-facing swastika symbols, often used in Tibetan, found among the Chinese ideographs 卍 U+534D (yung-drung-chi-khor) and 卐 U+5350 (yung-drung-nang-khor).

I hope that this story is not true.

SEATTLE (Reuters) - Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) said on Friday that its latest version of Office software inadvertently contained a font featuring two swastikas, and said it would offer tools to remove and replace the offending characters from the program.

The swastika, which was made infamous by Nazi Germany, was included in Microsoft's "Bookshelf Symbol 7" font. That font was derived from a Japanese font set, said Microsoft Office product manager Simon Marks.

"It was discovered by one of our customers a couple weeks ago," Marks said, adding that there was "no indication of malicious intent."

The Redmond, Washington-based software maker said that it had contacted various Jewish organizations about the font and said a utility would be immediately available on its Web site that would remove the characters from the system.

Microsoft said it will release other tools at a later date to remove only the offending characters.

A form of the swastika has been used in the Buddhist religion to symbolize the feet or footprints of the Buddha. The symbol, which was also used widely in the ancient world including Mesopotamia, Scandinavia, India and the Americas, became common in China and Japan with the spread of Buddhism.

German dictator Adolf Hitler adopted the swastika as the symbol of the Nazi Party because of its nationalist identification, according to the Los Angeles-based Simon Wiesenthal Center, an international Jewish human rights group.

Capt'n Midnight · 14-12-2003 1:19pm

Anyone remember the Swatika laundry in Dublin ?
The reverse swastiks was also an early christian cross.

I reckon a large portion of the one billion muslems might have an opinion on the star of david appearing (is it in windings ?) .. And the letter K might be deemed to be offensive to afro-americans, in the same way the number 7 might be upsetting to south africians.

Microsoft - anyone remember the time zone selector in the original windows 95 - they turned off the option to click on time zones because of political correctness.

In fairness they should also remove any offensive kanji....

Bit like the Master-Slave jumpers really.

bugler · 14-12-2003 1:34pm

None of those other symbols possess anything like the potency of the swastika, due to 'achievments' of the Nazi regime.

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If they offend the users greatly then MS is offering a tool that will remove them. They don't have to if they don't want to. And like it or not, no one thinks first of Buddhism, Tibet, or any ancient civilisation when they see the swastika.

Yoda · 14-12-2003 1:44pm

These characters are offensive Kanji!

You can see them in this 5 MB file from the Unicode Standard: CJK Unified Ideographs.

Yoda · 14-12-2003 1:45pm

There are lots of such symbols in Unicode. There's ॐ U+0950 DEVANAGARI OM, ੴ U+0A74 GURMUKHI EK ONKAR, ☦ U+2626 ORTHODOX CROSS, ☧ U+2627 CHI RHO, ☨ U+2628 CROSS OF LORRAINE, ☩ U+2629 CROSS OF JERUSALEM, ☪ U+262A STAR AND CRESCENT, ☬ U+262C ADI SHAKTI, ☭ U+262D HAMMER AND SICKLE, ☯ U+262F YIN YANG, ☸ U+2638 WHEEL OF DHARMA, ♰ U+2670 WEST SYRIAC CROSS, ♱ U+2671 EAST SYRIAC CROSS, ✝ U+271D LATIN CROSS, ✠ U+2720 MALTESE CROSS, ✡ U+2721 STAR OF DAVID...

davelerave · 14-12-2003 2:01pm

they are offensive and should be removed

Yoda · 14-12-2003 2:08pm

In what way is the Wheel of Dharma offensive, DaveLeRave? :rolleyes:

DadaKopf · 14-12-2003 2:11pm

They're just symbols. Not just symbols, but very widely used symbols. You don't hear people looking to ban U, S and A because of their associations with one particular murderous global superpower and their closest ally, the Star of David.

oscarBravo · 14-12-2003 2:17pm

Yoda (I know you're a Mac guy, but...) do you know of a font in X that will contain all the characters you're referencing? Of your last post, the only one I can see is U+2721.

My MS fonts (Arial, Times New Roman et al) seem to skip from U+266B stright to U+E801.

Barry Aldwell · 14-12-2003 2:30pm

Interesting note on the use of the swastika - During World War 2 the Finns fought the Russians, using British fighters, some of which had swastikas painted in the side. The Finns used the swastika as a military marking, as it was easy to identify.

Yoda · 14-12-2003 2:32pm

OscarBravo, what do you mean "a font in X"?

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 2:45pm

Originally posted by davelerave
they are offensive and should be removed

We have a fan of soundbite politics here, I see.

oscarBravo · 14-12-2003 3:05pm

Originally posted by Yoda
OscarBravo, what do you mean "a font in X"?

I meant a font for the X-Window System on Linux, but now that I think about it, it's a pretty silly question. A better question might be: do you know of a free TrueType font with a comprehensive set of unicode characters?

bonkey · 14-12-2003 3:07pm

There was a recent petition from 100,000 signatories about the exhibit fo the Enola Gay, where they wanted the relevant US museum to include a comment about how many people the A-bombs it dropped killed, and the suffering it caused....as opposed to what is the current commentary which simply mentions how dropping the A bombs effectively ended the war.

So, surely to these people the letter A - with its indelible association with atomic weapons and their use - is offensive. Should it be removed too?? Bollox it should.

Personally, I think its all a load of c0ck. If MS want to produce "PC Windows", or "PC Fonts" or "PC Office" for those who believe their own hangups are more important than the valid requirements of others, and leave the rest of us the fsck alone.

Seriously....just issue a "I'm unable to let go of the past" patch which will replace the swastikas with big black squares or something, and let those who are really worried about it apply this next time they visit windowsupdate.com. WTF they need to patch it for the rest of it us is beyond me...

jc

Victor · 14-12-2003 5:33pm

I propose the crusader "+" symbol be removed.

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 5:42pm

Originally posted by Victor
I propose the crusader "+" symbol be removed.

Old news...

Until the early 1970s two different sets of arithmetic books were used in Israel. One for the secular schools, employing an inverted “T” sign. In the early ‘70s the religious fanatics “converted” the (Labor) Party to the great danger of the cross in arithmetic, and from that time, in all Hebrew elementary schools (and now many high schools as well) the international plus sign has been forbidden.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/crimes_against_christianity/3.htm

Syth · 14-12-2003 8:52pm

The thing about the swastica is that for about 99.99% of people, nazism will be all they will think about when they see it.

But I don't think they should ban it altogether. M$ should just have it there and if you've got a problem then don't use those letters!.

davelerave · 14-12-2003 8:53pm

Originally posted by Yoda
In what way is the Wheel of Dharma offensive, DaveLeRave? :rolleyes:

sorry i was busy earlier and didn't elaborate.my argument is that the swastika is a symbol universally associated with hitler and nazi germany and is offensive to gays gypsies jews and others who were persecuted for no reason during the 2nd world war .

oscarBravo · 14-12-2003 9:06pm

Originally posted by davelerave
the swastika is a symbol universally associated with hitler and nazi germany

Universally? Should Carlsberg demolish the stone elephants at the entrance to the brewery because they bear swastikas? I hope not.

Context is everything.

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 9:15pm

Originally posted by davelerave
sorry i was busy earlier and didn't elaborate.my argument is that the swastika is a symbol universally associated with hitler and nazi germany and is offensive to gays gypsies jews and others who were persecuted for no reason during the 2nd world war .

Except that it is not universally associated with Hitler and Nazi Germany as has been pointed out in South and East Asia, where it is better identified as a religious symbol. No doubt they’re not as enlightened as you though.

Perhaps we should ban the hammer and sickle given its association with Stalinist Russia, which may be offensive to the families of those persecuted or exterminated for no reason before, during and after the World War II? I really would have to agree with bonkey and say this is all an amazing amount of politically correct horseshit.

davelerave · 14-12-2003 9:20pm

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Except that it is not universally associated with Hitler and Nazi Germany as has been pointed out in South and East Asia, where it is better identified as a religious symbol. No doubt they’re not as enlightened as you though.

Perhaps we should ban the hammer and sickle given its association with Stalinist Russia, which may be offensive to the families of those persecuted or exterminated for no reason before, during and after the World War II? I really would have to agree with bonkey and say this is all an amazing amount of politically correct horseshit.

i think i'm reasonably enlightened. can you make your point without personalising the argument. i think it's associated with nazi germany on this side of the world and will offend a lot of people

DaithiSurfer · 14-12-2003 9:20pm

Jesus, People make such a big deal out of the smallest things.
Its just a symbol. If people are so shallow that they think that just because a symbol is there that it is evil then they can download software to remove it. Problem solved, but i think its a bit overboard.
What should we do next, ban movies and documentaries from showing pictures of a swastika.

I know some people who are offended by seeing cattle in a field on tv. Oh dear lets ban emmerdale.

Give people credit with some intelligence.

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 9:41pm

Originally posted by davelerave
i think i'm reasonably enlightened. can you make your point without personalising the argument. i think it's associated with nazi germany on this side of the world and will offend a lot of people

Which is why you simply argued an apparently blanket “they are offensive and should be removed” - that it may be offensive to people on the other side of the World if you censor it, because of their cultural and religious beliefs, did not appear to register in your argument. Neither did you address that in principle it would open the floodgates to censor dozens of other symbols that may be deemed offensive by any lobby group with enough influence.

Instead what you appeared to propose was a simplistic, black and white solution delivered as a sound bite. Then you wonder why I felt the overwhelming need to react thusly to an argument that screamed out; “I don’t know what I’m talking about”? Go figure.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, this was obviously an oversight on your part. The alternative would certainly not be enlightened. It would be moronic.

davelerave · 14-12-2003 9:46pm

and you're a moderator here !god help us

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 10:03pm

Originally posted by davelerave
and you're a moderator here !god help us

Another well informed argument I see... :rolleyes:

FYI, I’m not a moderator here - in this particular forum I have no special status.

davelerave · 14-12-2003 10:56pm

i'm saying you're spoiling for a trivial argument by personalising the thread in the way you have done ,i'm no more enlightened than anybody else but i feel the swastika is offensive to people who were persecuted during the war,that's my point of view and i am entitled to express my viewpoint without being denigrated by you .same as anybody

The Corinthian · 14-12-2003 11:16pm

Originally posted by davelerave
i'm saying you're spoiling for a trivial argument by personalising the thread in the way you have done ,i'm no more enlightened than anybody else but i feel the swastika is offensive to people who were persecuted during the war,that's my point of view and i am entitled to express my viewpoint without being denigrated by you .same as anybody

There’s nothing trivial in the ignorance of politically correct sound bite politics. In fact I find it, and by extension your viewpoint, quite offensive - that’s my point of view. I’m just doing to you what you would do to others you disagree with.

And if you don’t get the point by now, don’t bother responding.

davelerave · 14-12-2003 11:36pm

Originally posted by davelerave
sorry i was busy earlier and didn't elaborate.my argument is that the swastika is a symbol universally associated with hitler and nazi germany and is offensive to gays gypsies jews and others who were persecuted for no reason during the 2nd world war .

as you don't seem to have read it here is my point of view,it's not a soundbyte

The Corinthian · 15-12-2003 12:12am

Just because it’s your point of view, it does not make it any less simplistic or shallow. You’ve failed to counter the arguments levied by others against this view, choosing to ironically play the Freedom of Speech card, even though you’re advocating censorship.

As such, it’s little more than a sound bite (and certainly your first post in this thread was nothing more than a sound bite).

Capt'n Midnight · 15-12-2003 12:23am

Now while you might argue about who will see a unicode tibetan character - the vast majority of computers world wide contain windings...

Windings characters Hex55 (85) - 5A (90) something to offend most religons (what's 5C ? - looks offensive) UVWXYZ[\ <-- how do you change the font ?

Now the last character in windings is VERY offensive.
(renaming fonts is one way to banish it from screen savers)

Then there's windings2
Characters x82,x83 (130,131) are obviously islamic crescents and the pentagram is at (234) and there are 7 crosses in a row (198-) just to really intimidate.

Characters (60)-(78) are finger gestures, in some cultures these could be quite offensive..

And you can't educate people if the events/symbols are wiped from history. Look at what revisionist historians are trying to do to the holocaust.
so just for the record:
a) six million jews were slaughtered.
b) millions of non-jews were also slaughtered too.

BTW: loved that bit about the "+" being banned...

1941 German math lesson 1 卐 1 = 2

Bottom line - you can't have freedom of speach if you censor everything.

davelerave · 15-12-2003 12:31am

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Just because it’s your point of view, it does not make it any less simplistic or shallow. You’ve failed to counter the arguments levied by others against this view, choosing to ironically play the Freedom of Speech card, even though you’re advocating censorship.

As such, it’s little more than a sound bite (and certainly your first post in this thread was nothing more than a sound bite).

Corinthian,my beef with you is that you made a personal attack on me in the first instance which is unwarranted and unfair.

The Corinthian · 15-12-2003 12:37am

Originally posted by davelerave
Corinthian,my beef with you is that you made a personal attack on me in the first instance which is unwarranted and unfair.

Fair enough, I probably should not have made a personal inference. However, if you'd chosen to argue your view point, I would have been able to attack that instead...

DaithiSurfer · 15-12-2003 12:44am

How about they just make word look for the letters N A Z I and if they appear in that particular sequence make it dissapear therefore nobody can type the word nazi ever. Just in case it might offend someone.

Capt'n Midnight · 15-12-2003 1:01am

So Joseph and Mary went to Naz[YOUR IP HAS BEEN REPORTED]

*Not an honest typo - obviously they were palestinians

bonkey · 15-12-2003 7:58am

Originally posted by davelerave
my argument is that the swastika is a symbol universally associated with hitler and nazi germany

....

I think it's associated with nazi germany on this side of the world and will offend a lot of people

So, "Universally" actually means "on this side of the world" to you.......seeing as how you've once more clarified that your point was the one made in the "Universal" comment.

I find it no coincidence that this...shall we say "slip of hte fingers"....is posted from someone who is supporting the concept of banning the swastika from a worldwide product based on our most known western connotations and ignoring the other perfectly valid reasons for its use in the rest of the world.

Interestingly, you're thinking is still incorrect, because the swastika remains a symbol used by some Native American tribes. Unsurprisingly, this is also controversial, as there are enough people who believe that they should set their culture and beliefs aside to avoid giving offence to anyone because of actions which took place over 3,000 miles of ocean away from them over half a century ago.

I wonder if you could also suggest how long the Swastika should remain banned for? Until there is no-one left alive from WW2? Longer?

If we shouldn't put any timeframe on this, then shouldn't the christian church and all of its trappings be also banned in hindsight for the atrocities it performed during the Inquisition and the crusades? And so on and so forth.

What if the Irish decided tomorrow to ban the Union Jack? After all, it represents centuries of oppression of the Irish people. Or maybe thats too specific, and we should just outlaw the wearing of black and tan colours together, for example? And the drink of the same name....out with it, I say. Would you support such moves as well? No?

We - unlike Microsoft - wouldn't even be exporting our bans across the world...just keeping them inside our own borders, so it should be even more reasonable.

So would you go for it?

jc

vorbis · 15-12-2003 12:08pm

its not that much of an issue guys. I din't really mind them issuing a patch to get rid of it. Oh and I think to be fair, the vast majority of the world's population associate a swastika with Hitler.

ixoy · 15-12-2003 1:41pm

I certainly disagree with it being removed. It's not just that the swastika was perverted by a mad tyrant and isn't - in essence - evil itself. It's the fact that we're trying to blot out a piece of history and pretend it doesn't happen.
What's in the future?

Kid: Dad, I heard those nasty Nazis had a symbol - what was it like?
Dad: Well I actually can't show you since the Powers That Be have decided I don't have the judgement power to use it properly and thus removed my ability to display it you. But it was squiggly.

It's not even a question of free speech v.s. Nazi idealism here, but removing the ability to take about an item in *any* context whether good or evil, whether for religious or Neo-Nazi purposes. For that reason, it's wrong.

vorbis · 16-12-2003 12:01pm

don't mean to be pedantic but its not actually being removed. You can remove it manually itself. I think its more for the type of people who get upset over GTA. Also face it, it doesn't affect anyone here. Get over it.

Yoda · 16-12-2003 12:13pm

Someone who works there says:

The article is true. When one has a symbol font that has no connection to Budhism, some countries have significant issues due to modern history. This probably would have not been an issue if it were in a font that would normally use the character, like in the SimSun font for Chinese. The symbol font had neither cultural context, nor correct Unicode mappings. I believe that our action was the right thing to do in this case.

There are no plans to remove the characters from fonts where there is cultural context with Unicode mappings.

Zombrex · 18-12-2003 12:32am

For thousands of years the symbol has been assoicated with "good-luck", "peace", "circle", "enlightment".

Then Hitler came allong and associated it (wrongly) with "power", and people began associtating it with the Nazi's.

The only way that the symbol is going to be restored to its true meaning, and its true cultural significance, is to keep using it, in its true context. It doesn't have to be constantly associated with Nazism, it is our ignorance of other cultures that is doing that.

Why should we let the Nazi's ignorance continue to destroy culture 60 years after they were defeated.

Swastika to be banned by Microsoft?

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