Manager screaming abuse. How much is too much?

vibe666

posting for another friend again.

Basically someone I know is getting major abuse from a new manager (who will be moving into the GM's position in the new year) and she's not the only one. the whole staff have had this guy shouting (and I mean shouting to the point where he has left both women and men in tears) at all his managers because in his eyes nothing is good enough, not matter what they do.

now, we're not even talking about junior managers, we're talking about department heads and all the senior managers here, and he has done nothing but scream abuse since he walked in the door.

as far as i can see it's only going to get worse too. the assitant GM is almost out the door and and this new guy has just moved in to the same level at the moment, but will be taking over the GM's position when he leaves in the new year.

someone came to him with a problem the other day, and he got up while they were in the middle of a sentance and without a single word turned off the lights and walked out the door, with no explanation or anything.

all this and he's moved into a workplace which is at breaking point stress wise already.

the question is, can he do this?

can he really do this much emotional damage to his staff without it being considered too much?

where does the law stand with regard to someone giving this much abuse to all his staff? I'm talking grown men (and women)sobbing their hearts out and petrified to say anythig against this guy.

I'm not getting this from one person either, I know 4 people in senior management positions there and every onbe of them has been in tears just telling me the things he said to them (3 girls one guy btw).

he's an animal, and i want to be able to tell these guys that they can do something about it.

he's even forcing one of the managers to work xmas day even though he knows her mother is very ill with a potentially life threatening disease. she's not even going to get anything extra for working!

the current GM is out of the question btw, he doesn't give 2 sh1ts about anything there any more cos he's going at xmas.

Lafortezza

whoever his superior is needs to be contacted asap, even if that means going to the boards of directors or MD or owner of the company.

simple as that really, his boss(es) need to be told of his behaviour if its not possible to reason with him.

secret_squirrel

bollocks to that - If he's making MD they probably know just what he's like.
Tape him ranting and raving then take it to a solicitor and sue them for mental abuse.

No job is worth putting up with that for.

Sleipnir

they should all stop working at a specific time, all sending an email to himself and his immediate superior as to the reasons they have stopped working, outlined all grievences suffered by all workers.
You need everyone to do this though.
Don't talk to him, don't answer him, just wait for his boss to come asking questions.
NOBODY needs to take that kind of s**t from ANYONE.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
bollocks to that - If he's making MD they probably know just what he's like.
Tape him ranting and raving then take it to a solicitor and sue them for mental abuse.

No job is worth putting up with that for.

He not making MD (Managing Director), He is or will be the GM (General Manager) and he has a boss who needs to be told about his employees behaviour.

Get those affected by this asshole to write a description of his behavious towards him and then go to his boss.

secret_squirrel

And having experienced that kind of manager in the past they are either petty tyrants or desperately under pressure themselves. Either way - ONE screaming session is unacceptable. The man is a bully and needs to be sorted out.

Doesnt the company have any handbook about what is acceptable/professional behaviour??

henbane

Originally posted by Kananga
they should all stop working at a specific time, all sending an email to himself and his immediate superior as to the reasons they have stopped working, outlined all grievences suffered by all workers.
You need everyone to do this though.

Never trust people to do this gandhi passive resistance trash - just go to the current GM/MD/Board of directors and advise him that you will be speaking to a solicitor about bringing a case against the job for bullying/harrassment if this does not stop immediately. Get as many people as possible to do this but even one complaint will land them in this shit. If they don't take you seriously then go to the solicitor and he will make damn sure his costs will be paid by the job and not the staff if it's as bad as you say.

Have a look through oasis.gov

uberwolf

I kinda like the idea of taping him. It is out of order, and some kind of united front needs to be presented, he's clearly capable of "dealing" with you on a one on one basis, up the numbers, traditional union tactics, used further up the chain than normal...

nellieswellies

Do you have a Human Resources Department? if so email them and ask that your complaint will be treated in the strictest of confidence. Make a complaint and as a footnote gently remint the HR department that people on the floor feel intimidated and dont feel as though they can approach anybody. Perhaps this will go some way to a mail for example assuring everyone that if they have anything they would like to discuss they can do so without fear of intimidation or bullying.

In essence this is bullying plain and simple and should not be tolerated within the upper echelons of any company, for christ's sake schools don't even tolerate it.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by vibe666
Basically someone I know is getting major abuse from a new manager (who will be moving into the GM's position in the new year) and she's not the only one.

1) Get his email address and telephone number off your friend.
2) Post them on Boards.ie
3) Let nature take its course

It won't help your friend but might make her feel better.

secret_squirrel

Oh yea best correct myself - In my anger at this toad I forgot a tape made without the knowledge of one of the participants would probably have no legal validity. Although it might be constructive to show his superiors - although I would have thought at a GM level - they will already know what he is like an are likely turning a blind eye - coz he 'gets things done' or some similar management b/s

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by lafortezza
1) Get his email address and telephone number off your friend.
2) Post them on Boards.ie
3) Let nature take its course

It won't help your friend but might make her feel better.

I realise this was probably posted in jest but both the poster and Boards would be in seriously dodgy legal territory doing this. (I think)

Tiesto

Originally posted by Kananga
they should all stop working at a specific time, all sending an email to himself and his immediate superior as to the reasons they have stopped working, outlined all grievences suffered by all workers.
You need everyone to do this though.
Don't talk to him, don't answer him, just wait for his boss to come asking questions.
NOBODY needs to take that kind of s**t from ANYONE.

Yeah best idea imo

Borzoi

Manager screaming abuse. How much is too much?

Any amount is too much. Fortunately you have both civil law rights and labour law rights.

If this guy (well it usually is) starts with any either overbearing langauge or manner. Interrupt, very calmly say excuse me, I find your behaviour/manner/language unacceptable, and unless you are going to moderate it, this coversation is at an end. Don't at any point engage this person while tempers are still up.

This will usually bring stunned silence - if they start again, walk away. Deliberately and calmly. Firstly towards your desk/station then either to a more senior member of managements office/ trade union official, basicly anybody who will look credible if this goes further.

Once the immediate flare up is over, write as comprehensive report as possible of events, send them to the highest person in the company chain/your HR manager/the owner. There is no real need to comment on the events except to say that you find them unacceptable.

After a number of events, don't walk back to your desk, walk to your solicitor's, take your letters of events, and start procedures for constructive dismissal.

Adios gob****e, hello Bahamas

secret_squirrel

The only real way to handle it. Best advice ever Borzoi.

Do what Borzoi said.

KoNiT

If this guy (well it usually is) starts with any either overbearing langauge or manner. Interrupt, very calmly say excuse me, I find your behaviour/manner/language unacceptable, and unless you are going to moderate it, this coversation is at an end.

Don't at any point engage this person while tempers are still up.

Borzoi is bang on with that statement, contact your solicitor anyway for advice. I was bullied at work, its terrible & frightening, leaving you feeling very inadequate. I couldn't leave at the time as jobs were scarce , but I fought my way through, If I had any cop on I would have sought advice, I'm glad at least your friend has

vibe666

to top it all off, the manager directly below the Assistant GM was browsing one of the jobs boards (looking for a way out) and found that they had advertised for the assitant gm's position, but included about 2/3 of her own job description in there as well. not a word to her or anything, just pretty much made her fell completely worthless at a time when she's been working harder than anyone else in the place.

i said it might just be to take some strain off her, but it's all the things that make her job what it is, leaving her doing petty stuff that she should be able to delegate to those lower down the management hierachy.

not a nice way to find things out at all.

po0k

It's amazing what a hatchet will do to a kneecap given sufficient force and angle of attack......

Seriously: follow Borzoi's advice to the letter.
We did a bit of Industrial Management & Finance last year and one part of the course (3 months was spent on HR and Labour relations), and we were told to do pretty much what Borzoi said, along with going through the various state legal bodies.

vibe666

sounds like good advise to me. thanks again for all the replies. i'll let them know they aren't all completely fvcked! well, not quite anyway!

now, where did I put that axe

Ruaidhri

Originally posted by SyxPak
It's amazing what a hatchet will do to a kneecap given sufficient force and angle of attack......

naw..too messy
tranquilizers in his tea...

vibe666

if i was putting something in his tea, it'd be lots and lots of laxatives.

the guy's so full of $hit it would do him the world of good!

Hobbes

What Borzoi said. Bare in mind most companies take bullying/harrassment very serious as because it is the company that gets sued not the guy screaming at you.

Victor

This is likely either straight out bullying (pathological), indirect bullying or other mental health health issue (clinical stress in particular comes to mind). We had to deal with an MD in another company who had "issues" (I also had and have issues) with his wife (I think she was seriously ill at the time). We got a copy of a letter of him giving out stink to a subcontractor for no reason (subbie dared ask for money). We decided to not comment on the letter directly, but have a quiet word his contracts manager in a not argumentative way to say that we understood there were issues and would make accommodations, but there were boundaries.

In this case a councellor's / psychotherapist's business card might not go astray.

Originally posted by Borzoi
Once the immediate flare up is over, write as comprehensive report as possible of events

I cannot stress the above enough, keep diaries of this behavior, judges love contemporaneous accounts.

Originally posted by Ruaidhri
naw..too messy tranquilizers in his tea...

And photos of him asleep at his desk (make sure there is a window showing daylight in the background).

Peace

Just hit him where it hurts....in the balls!:p

Hobbes

Its not this guy by any chance? :d

http://www.internalmemos.com/memos/memodetails.php?memo_id=2006

vibe666

no, but it might be a relative!

it's apparently getting worse too. now all the senior managers who are backed against the wall are starting to cc him emails to cover their own asses when they should just be getting on with things and sticking together.

if anything comes up, people are making sure thy're ass is covered in their email replies and cc'ing everything onto this guy, any time they want to make it look like they are doing exactly what he wants.

everyone is turning against each other and the whole place is turning into hell.

gandalf

I think Borzoi's advice is bang on.

You need to tell your friends to note everything down, to keep copies of all relevant emails. What they need to do is build a case that shows he is bullying to an outsider. Talk to an employment solicitor, I think the first appointment is normally free (make sure to check with them 1st). If there is a HR dept (and it sounds like there is), tell them to send a complaint to them (making sure they keep a copy of the complaint for future use if necessary).

Bullying in the workplace is a very serious issue and if the company do not address it, especially after a complaint has been made then they are lining themselves up for a large claim.

Gandalf.

shabbyroad

tell your friend this :

bottom line advice : go speak to someone who knows what they are talking about.
all of us here have our own interpretations and understandings of the law but none of us are qualified.
they will have a specific course of action to take. start with a solicitor specializing in labour law/employment legislation. (there is specific legislation in this country to deal with this abuse)

Here is what I do know : this person is a liability to the company and right now (believe it or not) you and your colleagues are in a very strong position.
Here's something else I know : don't depend on anyone else to stand up and be counted because if you do I can assure you that you'll be left high and dry. Look after number one - no-one else is going to do it for you. Be a hero/martyr in another lifetime and on someone else's dime.

Right now those members of staff are looking at a nice compo package and the company is looking at a major bill. There are laws to protect you and they have been used against senior managers in companies on this island. I personally know of one case (documented in the Irish Times) where a senior manager (couple dozen staff in his division) was suspended as soon as HR found out that there was an allegation of bullying. He was dismissed and subsequently settled on the steps of the high court when he tried to take an 'unfair' dismissal case against the employer. He's gone and his former staff are still employed.
Said employer has a (wrong) public perception of being tough to work for and in favour of this kind of behaviour. Nothing could have been further from the truth - they bounced his ass so fast out of the company it wasn't even funny.

(btw : that person who saw their job being advertised.... they're less than a year in the company yeah ? ... sounds like very familiar practice.... once you're there for 52 weeks you have certain rights.... less than that and you can be fired for no reason and have no come-back.... happened to my sister-in-law.... she saw her job being advertised and a week later (week 51 of employment) she was fired for no reason.... found out later that said company specialized in this method of keeping their payroll costs down)

chill

My advice is this.

He needs to go ahead with the idea mentioned earlier:

a) He and his colleagues need to make regular contemporaneous notes about his conduct.

b) Collectively, as many of them as possible agree to make a joint written approach to the Board of Directors stating that they intend to take the company to court for abuse, stress, bullying, constructive dismissal etc etc etc.

c) Start doing homework on a new job at the same time.

vibe666

half the problem is, that everyone is so shít scared of him that nobody wants to stand up to him. he has systematically destroyed any confinence anyone had in that place from the top down, and everyone has been working their asses off to get things done (they keep getting more and more work piled on them by the day) nobody has any energy to fight him. some of the staff have even been working through the night to get things finished and still don't have everything done he's demanding, and he's even had the cheek to accuse one of them of a 'lack of commitment to the company' when she's just pulled an 80 hour week.

i tell you what, if i ever meet this guy i'm gonna fecking murder him. some of these people are my best friends and there's not a single one of them with any fight left in them. it's fine for me to tell them what to do, but none of them has the energy to actually do anything anymore.

Oh, and one of the managers walked out last night too, determined that he wasn't coming back today after a completetly unnecessary grilling over something he hadn't done, even though it was something for which he has no responsibility for. i guess i'll find out tonight whether he did or not.

maybe he'll get *randomly* mugged or car jacked or something. :ninja: any takers?

Lafortezza

your friends need to get some cojones! I can't believe that they all are willing to bend over and take this kind of treatment, and I can't believe that none of them are willing to go to this managers direct boss....just doesn't make sense.

vibe666

bottom line is, for everyone working there he's the boss, end of story. they don't have anyone to go to. the guy was put in there to 'shake things up' by the company directors so they aren't going to see it as anything other than him doing what he was put there to do.

the chances are whoever does go and complain is going to be doing it on their own and will end up getting fired for doing it. sure they can't fore someone for complaining about what he's like, but if he's been put there to shake things up and someone doesn't like the way he's doing it then they aren't going to last very long are they?

this guy didn't get this far in the company without the people above him knowing what he's like. i think though he must have got much worse due to the increased power he has been given. he has at least twice the responsibility now that he had in his last position within the company and i think it must have gone to his head.

btw, does anyone know if someone would have any kind of a comeback in a tribunal if they left this place because this guy had made it impossible to work there?

Lafortezza

You haven't said what company it is, but I'm guessing that its private sector, and I doubt any board of directors would encourage and head manager like this guy to act and treat his employees like this.

I'm guessing that the directors gave this new manager some savage tough targets to meet, and that they may have said to him to "apply some pressure on the workers to get the job done" and now he's taken it much too far.

They need to get written reports of all the behaviour he's shown towards them and then go to someone in HR, or ideally someone more senior than this asshole manager.

There's no other way to get the problem sorted that I can see.

vibe666

i have left that little detail out to try and protect the people working there a little from anything getting back to the company via this thread. if i even mentioned what industry they are in anyone in that industry who is working in dublin would know instantly the company, and the people involved, and i don't want that.

incidentally, the guy who walked out didn't come back, and one of the other managers who worked through the night to have a presentation ready for a big meeting today was told by this w@nker that he didn't think she took her job seriously, and wasn't committed to her work, blah, blah, blah. this from a guy who left the office at 6 in the evening while this other person worked all night without leaving, and got 1 hours sleep (in the building) before starting again at 5am to get everything done on time only to have everything she had worked for picked apart and thrown back in her face.

she could hardly even tell me what happened, and is a complete nervous wreak. i got her brother to come and get her, and she's spending the weekend at her parents. i got her mum to make a doctors appointment while she's there and explain to the doctor what a state she's in. hopefully he'll give her a sick cert so she can take some time to recover.

once she's calmed down, i'm going to speak to a few solicitors and see if they can offer any advice on the whole thing. i'd like nothing better than to see these bastards (one in particular) burn for the way they have been treating their staff.

i do feel guitly too, because i'm an it contracotr by trade, and i do bugger all in the way of hard work and get paid very well to do it, and quite often when i'm talking with these guy7s they ask me about my day. sometimes i have to make stuff up to stop them from feeling bad.:(

BrianD3

Story sounds a bit dubious to be honest. I could understand if it were junior inexperienced staff that were being bullied. But these people are supposedly heads of departments and senior managers, and they go crying their eyes out when this guy shouts at them? Firstly, anyone who gets to be a head of a department should be an EXPERT when it comes to dealing with all kinds of difficult situations in the workplace. Otherwise, they have no business being in such a senior position Secondly, it's a new manager who's allegedly doing the bullying - in my experience new managers tend to be wary enough when it comes to antagonising existing senior staff members.

Could it be that this new guy simply has a different management style than the people are used to? Perhaps he's a bit abrasive and demanding. Perhaps he wants to shake up the place and make an impression. Nothing wrong with any of that. I have seen this happen in companies. A new guy comes in. He's enthusiastic and efficient and wants to change things. The existing staff feel threatened by this new order and go on the defensive. One wrong move from the new guy and suddenly everyone is up in arms and making accusations of bullying, harassment and god knows what else.

Just being devils advocate here. I don't doubt that you're telling the truth and are simply relaying what your friends told you. I just think you may not be hearing the full truth from your friends. Two sides to every story remember.

BrianD3

Lafortezza

Originally posted by vibe666
bottom line is, for everyone working there he's the boss, end of story. they don't have anyone to go to

this doesn't make sense to me unless this manager guy owns the company, there's always someone higher up, even if he's a director then he's on the same level as the other directors and therefore he's in some way answerable to them.

It think Borzoi summed up the best approach earlier.
If the your friends and the people they work with aren't prepared to act on this treatment by this manager asshole then its there own fault if they stick it out and are unhappy in their jobs. honestly not trying to be nasty!

any chance of a pm of the company involved, curiousity is killing me!

vibe666

Originally posted by BrianD3
Story sounds a bit dubious to be honest.

i really don't think you have a grasp of exactly how bad this guy is.

a department head came out of a meeting [read: grilling and abuse] picked up is coat, and on his way out told one of the other managers (my mate) that he wasn't willing to put up with that kind of sh1t from anyone, and wouldn't be coming back. true to his word, he wasn't. this isn't some guy working in a shop who's been there a few weeks, had an argument and decided it wasn't his thing and walked out. this guy was in his 30's and a long way up the ladder in his chosen career, and got so much abuse from this guy he just upped and left.

the other guys there are in a similar position and many of them are seriously thinking about following this guy out the door.

the girl i sent home to the doc's has been there 2 years and has had or or 4 sick days in the whole time she's been there. she's worked in some of the most high profile positions in her field, here and in london. when she was 21 she was given a position in london that made her the youngest person in the city to ever have achieved that role, and believe me, she's no pushover. you don't get to be where she is without being tough. this guy is just something else entirely and has reduced the hardest people there to quivering wreaks. this isn't people moaning about someone being a bit of a twat who they don't like, he's a complete animal and nobody has enough fight left in them to stand up to him.

eth0_

Is there a union you can go to about this?
Also, if he's such a prick to everyone, why doesn't the whole company organise some sort of meeting with him and give him an ultimatum, either he stops treating everyone like dirt, or you walk.

What's he going to do, fire the entire company? I don't think so. With people like this guy you need to stand up to them and fight fire with fire. Trust me, he's not going to sack the entire workforce, for one you could bring him to an employment tribunal and sue him into a black hole in space, and secondly his business would go down the tubes while he recruited new staff.

From what you've said, getting the entire company to stand up to him as one is the only way.

BrianD3

i really don't think you have a grasp of exactly how bad this guy is.

Oh, I think I do. I've come across several managers who sound like a carbon copy of this guy. You get these types all the time in private companies. Private enterprise is about profit, nothing else matters. Compassion for employees and giving them an easy life doesn't come into it. Yes, it's ruthless and hard nosed but that's just the way these companies operate. Example: you made the following statement in your original post:

"he's even forcing one of the managers to work xmas day even though he knows her mother is very ill with a potentially life threatening disease. she's not even going to get anything extra for working!"

This person should know her rights. Is there a statement in her contract which requires her to work public holidays if asked? If so, is this legally sound? If the answer to both of these is yes then it's pretty clear - she's obliged to work xmas day. It's written down in black and white and the fact that the new manager may or may not be a bullying monster doesn't come into it. Plus the ill mother isn't really a factor here. Unless there is some legislation or something in her contract which gives her entitlement to compassionate leave. Again she should know all of this herself.

Not nice, but she'll have to deal with it. If she can't, then she should look at moving to a different company or a different career area altogether.

What's he going to do, fire the entire company?

Depends on the company and the type of business. Take the IT sector. Loads of unemployed graduates, very few jobs. If a company decides to get rid of a few employees, it'll have filled the vacant positions within days as there is a huge glut of graduates out there desperate for a job. It's the principle of supply and demand.

BrianD3

ur mentor

There is a saying in poker if you cant see the patsy at the table then your the patsy.

Why is it all these senior managers etc. are unable to stand up for them selves and they seem to be getting you to do the running here? It is relatively simple to deal with tyrants now a days. plenty of advice above on this and mostly well known to senior managers.

just curious.

eth0_

Originally posted by BrianD3
If a company decides to get rid of a few employees, it'll have filled the vacant positions within days as there is a huge glut of graduates out there desperate for a job. It's the principle of supply and demand.

BrianD3

I didn't say a few, I said all, if they all take a stand. Besides, you can't just fire employees willy nilly, Ireland has become so litigious that even bastard manager from hell here would have to have a better reason than 'they questioned my management techniques' to back up firing a group of staff.

sceptre

eth0_'s almost certainly right IMHO. A few of them being fired after making an attempt to deal with the work environment described in the opening post (and I'm referring to the manager who obviously can't manage rather than anything to do with overtime/Christmas working) or even a few of them feeling they have to leave for the sake of their own sanity sounds like a day out in court as soon as someone hears of constructive dismissal.

Victor

Originally posted by eth0_
What's he going to do, fire the entire company?

Be aware "constructive dismissal" (forcing people to quit) is illegal, but all too often companies get away with it (because the staff are so fed up with the company that they want nothing to do with them once they quit). Potentially, this guy is just upping the turnover of staff (used to be common in the fast food industry as their was a 10% pay premium for staff there over a year).

vibe666

well, i think things are going to start happening now anyway. one of the staff is off to the doctor today to see about getting something for the stress/exhustion and maybe have a couple of days off to recover from the overwork. hopefully the senior managers will realise that they've been pushing things too far. even if they don't, they'll be a good case for forced overworking or constructive dismissal, asthey have been telling the bosses that there is too much work to do in the time they have got to do it.