New PC technology

flogen · 06-12-2003 9:22pm #1

with the advent of sony's UMD (set to be used on the PSP, although Im not sure if their claims about it are totally proven just yet), do you think that the medium for PC games could change in the next few years?
CD are obviously the most popular form nowadays, but it is becoming increasingly the norm to have a game with 2 discs or more, causing alot of hastle, and returning us to the days of the 7 disked street fighter 2 on Amiga 500 (oh how i remember after each fight 'insert disk x, followed by another 5 minutes of loading...joy!). More recently DVD ROMs are being used, with games such as Metal Gear Solid 2 on PC, however many PC gamers dont have a DVD Drive on their PC as most have seperate units for DVD videos (often games consoles) or some find the quality (incl. screen size, sound etc) to be terrible when compared with your widescreen and surround sound. Forgetting this, the new UMD is more compact and reportedly bigger in size to a DVD disk, so it seems an all round winner.

so will this change PC gaming? or do you think we will be happy enough to use CDs or, in time, DVDs? Or do you think a new disc-type would damage game sales as people become confused with which to buy or if a 21st Centuary Beta/Vhs battle was started as a result?
Another possibility would be memory cards such as SD, Flash etc, however i think the countless types available will mean this wont ever happen as no single card is supremely better or more used than the other.

Flogen

secret_squirrel · 06-12-2003 9:46pm

Certainlly for handhelds big sized memory cards will be the way to go. Imagine the PSP2 or GBA SP3 with Secure Digital sized cards holding a gig or more???

DiscoStu · 06-12-2003 9:48pm

however many PC gamers dont have a DVD Drive on their PC

nonsense, oyu have obviously been taken in by the evil game publishers propaganda. pc games dont come on dvd not because there is not enough of an installed user base out there(i would estimate 90% of all pcs sold since 1999 have dvd drives and would easily wager a non essential body part on it being pretty close). over the intervening years the proportion of computers being sold with dvd roms also increased coupling that with the fact that very few pcs sold in 1999 are still gaming class is very slim would lead me to belive that there are very very few gaming pcs out there without a dvd drive.

publishers simply dont want to incur the cost of switching to a new format even though it would greatly reduce piracy in the short term due to the relative lack of recordable dvd and the chaos over the differing formats.

flogen · 06-12-2003 10:03pm

well fair enough, but in my experience i dont think that PCs have the drives, ive seen alot of people put off buying games such as MGS2 because they dont have the drive for it.
then again, i may be wrong, although i think that only in the last year or two have dvd drives become common or standard.

Flogen

Stephen · 06-12-2003 11:21pm

There's no reason not to have a DVD rom drive in your PC in this day and age, they are dirt cheap after all.

secret_squirrel · 07-12-2003 3:13pm

hell the decent multi format burners are only €125 now. Its only coz of the stupid +/- /Ram formats that they arent more popular. They have come down so much faster in price than I seem to remember DVD-ROMs or CD Burners doing.

po0k · 07-12-2003 4:21pm

Originally posted by flogen
well fair enough, but in my experience i dont think that PCs have the drives, ive seen alot of people put off buying games such as MGS2 because they dont have the drive for it.
then again, i may be wrong, although i think that only in the last year or two have dvd drives become common or standard.

Flogen

maybe it's because it isn't really a good game.
The first was hardly spectacular, I played through to the end on the PSX.
Wasn't all that impressed to be honest.

DiscoStu · 07-12-2003 4:42pm

Originally posted by SyxPak
maybe it's because it isn't really a good game.
The first was hardly spectacular, I played through to the end on the PSX.
Wasn't all that impressed to be honest.

I condem thee to hell

anyway, mgs2 didnt sell because every man and his dog had already played it long before it came out on the pc. the substance version flopped quite badly on all formats i belive.

Retr0gamer · 07-12-2003 6:36pm

maybe it's because it isn't really a good game.The first was hardly spectacular, I played through to the end on the PSX.
Wasn't all that impressed to be honest.

Blasphemy! All 5 Metal Gear games have been pure classics (forgetting the dodgy nes conversions and spin-offs).

Anyway i've had this argument with Praetorian many times and we always come the the same conclusion. Publishers and down right stupid for not putting games on DVDs. It must cost them more in the long run to put games on 5 cds instead of one DVD. Also There have been hardly any PC games in recent times that have had any decent FMV.

secret_squirrel · 07-12-2003 6:40pm

Originally posted by Retr0gamer
decent FMV.

A contradiction in terms surely?? There are very few decent examples of FMV - personally I hate it. The only good FMV that springs to mind is the C&C series. Maybe Wing Commander 4 - but that meant a stupid number of CD's.

I for one am glad DVD's aint made much of a breakthrough. A CD full of FMV is bad enough let alone a DVD full.

po0k · 07-12-2003 6:44pm

MGS was a game.
I played it pretty much to the end, it didn't leave me wanting more.
Ergo, it's not a good game in my not so humble opinion.

RE: FMV, 3 words
Final Fantasy Series.
Another 3 words:
Load of cock.

Retr0gamer · 07-12-2003 6:48pm

First MGS. Now Final Fantasy. Grrr!

I think a bit of FMV adds continuity to gameplay. Game engine cutscenes look far too cheap when they are being made by unimaginative american geeks who live on a diet of jolt cola, pizza crust, star trek and lord of the rings.

po0k · 07-12-2003 6:59pm

Fair enough, I happen to like the in-game cut-scenes, as long as there's a good engine with suitable accompanying textures, models and voice-overs. FMVs are from back in the day when the enginesand associated content couldn't produce anything life-like.
Today FMV is suitable for small cut-scenes which can't be represented in the engine or for stunning hi-res intro sequences.

I still stand by my opinions on MGS and FF.
I really enjoy a good RPG, but I didn't find anything I liked in any of the FF games I played. People raved at me when I said they were shit games and claimed it had the best story, atmostpherics and FMV of any game, ever.
It was an ok story. I get my fix of that from anime. I don't want to play through a "game" (I use the term game loosely here) having to wait around for the FMV so I can follow the plot and spend ages killing bosses with the same set of over-elaborate moves which look cool the first time or 2 you see em but quickly become annoying when all you want to do is hammer the opponent as fast as possible and progress through the game. Every other RPG I'e played, the combat is resolved quickly, you batter the bejaysus out of your foe, throw a few fireballs around and move on completing your quests and exploring the game-world.

For the unforgivable boredom the FF series has provided (ON 3 H0000GE CDS!) on several occasions I have to disagree with anyone who says it's a good game.

flogen · 07-12-2003 8:29pm

yeah thats true, most people who wanted mgs had it long ago

anyways, lets just say that everyone had a dvd drive and every game came out on dvd-rom, do you still think that there is room for a new technology?
after all, the UMD claims to be bigger than a dvd but is much more compact.... thats two advantages (although not THE most important thing)

Flogen

po0k · 07-12-2003 9:03pm

...but DVD is established, you can play movies on it.

/me remembers back to memory sticks

There's enough space on DVDs for another few years yet.
Dual-layer, multiple DVDs, provide tonnes of storage.
UMDs are proprietary.
No need outside of Sony products.

secret_squirrel · 07-12-2003 9:10pm

SyxPak is right yet another proprietry dead end for sony. You'd have thought Minidisc and Memory stick would have taught them something.

Be interesting to see which Blue Laser dvd wins Sonys (and their mates) or the other one (Blu Ray??)

Anyhow as I said earlier - I think the future of portable storage is solid state memory. Look how quickly capacities are growing - Mechanical technology (ie something spinning/moving) will be around for a good long while but storage is heading solid state and/or purely optical fast.

bonkey · 08-12-2003 7:43am

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
SyxPak is right yet another proprietry dead end for sony. You'd have thought Minidisc and Memory stick would have taught them something.

Youngster

You'd think betamax would have taught them something.

And MD is still doing a pretty good trade....which reminds me...

/me takes his stack of MDs off the shelf and puts them in bag to bring to customer site

jc

Matt Simis · 08-12-2003 12:24pm

Originally posted by flogen
yeah thats true, most people who wanted mgs had it long ago

anyways, lets just say that everyone had a dvd drive and every game came out on dvd-rom, do you still think that there is room for a new technology?
after all, the UMD claims to be bigger than a dvd but is much more compact.... thats two advantages (although not THE most important thing)

Flogen

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You claim games arent on DVDs as not everyone has one (I too would venture a 90% figure) but suggest an inferior format that absolutely no one has.

Why inferior?
Well, the specs Ive found state UMD holds a capacity of 1.8GB, far less than the 4.6GB (single sided) DVD offers.
UMD Discs and drives would no doubt cost substantionally more than DVD, a DVDROM costs only €40 these days, less than the price of a game.
Dog slow 11Mbps transfer rate

UMD is designed for portable devices, DVD is designed for fixed place devices. Each have their benefits (in their own markets) and it seems DVDs support the PC (and current Consoles etc) quite well. There is no need to change to an entirely new medium. Such a change will require- bigger, faster and cheaper as well as some source material requiring massive capacity.

Matt

adnans · 08-12-2003 3:33pm

serisouly, i hate switching discs for a game. maybe its the lazyness factor, i dont know. wish they would keep the game on one disc whether its dvd,cd or whatever the format de jour is.

again i would like to disagree with some 'gamers' on this board who shall remain anonymous: in-game cutscenes rock. take for example the cutscenes in Vice City or the new Vampire game that uses all the cool ass HL2 engine. whoever played the alpha version of doom3 will know how the ingame cutscenes add to the game's evil atmosphere. FMV's also rock when they're done properly - Warcraft3 cutscenes spring to mind plus it fits on one cd.

adnans

Matt Simis · 08-12-2003 3:59pm

XIII on the PC ships on 4 disks, all of which need to be swapped as you progress through the game!

Interstate '76 had excellent ingame cutscences. They were Mpegs, but using a version of the engine, so they looked in the style of the rest of the game. Think Virtua Fighters with slightly higher polygon count and talking. It may sound crappy, but it gave the game a very slick and artistic look.

To think they "followed" it up with Interstate '82!

Matt

i_am_dogboy · 08-12-2003 4:23pm

Originally posted by adnans
serisouly, i hate switching discs for a game. maybe its the lazyness factor, i dont know. wish they would keep the game on one disc whether its dvd,cd or whatever the format de jour is.

again i would like to disagree with some 'gamers' on this board who shall remain anonymous: in-game cutscenes rock. take for example the cutscenes in Vice City or the new Vampire game that uses all the cool ass HL2 engine. whoever played the alpha version of doom3 will know how the ingame cutscenes add to the game's evil atmosphere. FMV's also rock when they're done properly - Warcraft3 cutscenes spring to mind plus it fits on one cd.

adnans

i've never been a fan of fmv's either and pretty much alwasys opted to skip them after my first time seeing it(except if theres good music)-you know what console never had that problem-the N64 all you needed on one cartidge

but there will always be big flashy intro's and movies because as we all know-the vast majority of people who buy games these days are simpletons who are drawn loud noises and bright lights

Venom · 08-12-2003 4:26pm

Stop getting your tails all curled up over FF being better than MSGxxxxx ya monkies

I for one would like to see DvDs being used for games like every sane gamer. If Doom3 or HL2 only come out on DvD, every game released after them will come out on DvD as well. No one have CD rom drives to begin with but certain games, Rebel Strike being one of them made everyone go out and buy one of the buggers.

The only reasion I can think of why software is not issued on DvD is mybe due to the region codes of DvD players?

Matt Simis · 08-12-2003 4:50pm

Originally posted by Venom

The only reasion I can think of why software is not issued on DvD is mybe due to the region codes of DvD players?

Arent we talking about DVD Data here, not movies? Region Codes dont apply..

Matt

koneko · 08-12-2003 4:55pm

Originally posted by Venom
The only reasion I can think of why software is not issued on DvD is mybe due to the region codes of DvD players?

Um, nope. Region codes are irrelevant when it comes to data DVD discs. They were invented purely so the Movie Studios could control releases of DVDs (movies) in the different regions. That's all they're used on.

Any reason they might give publically will be "not everyone had a DVD drive". The real reason I'd say is money.

po0k · 08-12-2003 7:06pm

Originally posted by i_am_dogboy
but there will always be big flashy intro's and movies because as we all know-the vast majority of people who buy games these days are simpletons who are drawn loud noises and bright lights

Look at the EA ads on before Star Trek on SKy One, MOHAA:Rising Sun, nothin but FMV (though decent FMV

). Designed to put forward a slick image of the game content for the couch morons.
Wonder why they never show the in-game footage as you would actually get on the PS2?

ww)

Also, re the BlueRay and DVDHD formats: DVDHD has been accepted as a playback format, but the writable/re-writable format hasn't...yet.
BlueRay seems to be targeting backup/data tape replacement/compliment from what I remember.

PHB · 09-12-2003 1:04am

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that mini-disks were, and are, still incredibly popular for file storage in east-asia?

Praetorian · 09-12-2003 11:23am

I think we all agree that pc games should come out on DVD's; there was no argument about that Retro. Personally, I think a mixture of in game cutscenes and FMV is the winning combination. Relying completely on in game cutscenes is a waste of development time.

Very amusing 'news flash', i_am_dogboy. Did you think of that yourself, or did Shinij (wink wink) think of it for you.

i_am_dogboy · 09-12-2003 11:36am

Originally posted by Praetorian

Very amusing 'news flash', i_am_dogboy. Did you think of that yourself, or did Shinij (wink wink) think of it for you.

apologies if i reiterated someone elses point, i guess i should have read the rest of the posts before posting myself-but i was in rant mode

Praetorian · 09-12-2003 11:46am

Apologies I_am_dogboy. My smartass comments should have been directed at Adnans for his 'newsflash'.

po0k · 09-12-2003 11:59am

Originally posted by Praetorian
Relying completely on in game cutscenes is a waste of development time.

How so?
You've got your engine, you've got your models, maps and textures, you're familiar witht he tools to create new content if needed.....
whereas FMV requires creating new models, hi-res textures, rendering time etc.
How is it a waste of development time either way if the end result is stunning and adds to the game experience thus (hopefully/suposedly) increasing sales?

Very amusing 'news flash', i_am_dogboy. Did you think of that yourself, or did Shinij (wink wink) think of it for you.

Actually, it was Adnans.
Tard.

Praetorian · 09-12-2003 12:33pm

More often than not, game companies get 3rd parties to do cut scenes, which frees up time for game development. Companies that rely solely on in game cut scenes are in my opinion, wasting time that they could be using to create good playable content.

That's an interesting way to sign your name Syxpak. If you ask nicely, the administrators might be willing to change your name to that permanently.

Retr0gamer · 09-12-2003 1:46pm

Even forgetting cutscenes it's ridiculous that the games come on lots of CD's. Games are just getting bigger and bigger which means more CD's in a DVD case that isn't designed to adequately hold more than 2. Also swapping disks during installation is a pain. I'd like to go off and have a cup of tea instead of waiting to swap disks.

In game cutscenes can be excellent such as in FFX, MGS etc. However look at the shoddy work done in The recent Raven games and Unreal 2. It's embarassing and boring and sometimes the design monkeys don't bother with a skip key.

09-12-2003 3:18pm

Originally posted by Praetorian
I think a mixture of in game cutscenes and FMV is the winning combination.

The Red Alert 2 intro pwned

i_am_dogboy · 09-12-2003 4:56pm

Originally posted by utility_
The Red Alert 2 intro pwned

every pre-generals intro and movie in c&c games pwned

Matt Simis · 09-12-2003 5:03pm

Originally posted by i_am_dogboy
every pre-generals intro and movie in c&c games pwned

Renegades were pretty brutal...

po0k · 09-12-2003 5:12pm

Renegade was pretty brutal.

monument · 09-12-2003 6:21pm

Originally posted by Matt Simis
UMD Discs and drives would no doubt cost substantionally more than DVD,

Sony says it's the other way around. They also said that UMD's are not publisher frendly, but they're also not very easy to copy.

flogen · 09-12-2003 6:42pm

Matt Simis, i wasnt contradicting myself, i was merely going by sonys comments on UMD that they can hold more than DVDs, if you check the original post i say how this is so far unproven (as is the PSP in general).
Also UMD is bound to be the underdog at the moment as it isnt being used in any popular medium at all, my question was do you think this could change in the near future.
I also would like to point out that UMDs are just one example, im sure there are many other formats on the way or here already that could be used for gaming, including a format that Empire recently claimed could be competition for DVD video even though DVDs are just becoming popular (i think it was those Blue discs or something)

Flogen

monument · 10-12-2003 12:18am

Originally posted by SyxPak
Look at the EA ads on before Star Trek on SKy One, MOHAA:Rising Sun, nothin but FMV (though decent FMV ). Designed to put forward a slick image of the game content for the couch morons.
Wonder why they never show the in-game footage as you would actually get on the PS2?
ww)

Like MOHRS, [or even MOH Rising Blocks] - never mind about how bad the gameplay is for the moment - in game it looks as EA mixed it with a Lego game - or did they want us to see blocks?

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
You'd have thought Minidisc and Memory stick would have taught them something.

Memory sticks are still in wide spread use - mostly in digital cameras

Mini disk would have been a dream - even if it was RAM - if it came before the CD.

po0k · 10-12-2003 10:30am

Memory sticks have died a horrible festering death in the market place, nothing but Sony hardware uses them.
If you want to say widespread use, mention CompactFlash, SD etc.

seamus · 10-12-2003 11:03am

Originally posted by koneko
Any reason they might give publically will be "not everyone had a DVD drive". The real reason I'd say is money.

I'd tend to agree with this. It probably works out cheaper to produce something on two CDs than on 1 DVD (just like it does at home). It shouldn't be long though till DVD media drops to the same type of pennies price we pay for CD media.

po0k · 10-12-2003 6:53pm

Not really afaik Seamus, you're still just pressing platters, wouldn't be a whole difference, and the investment in CD-pressing kit has already been spent and made back, would only take a small fraction more to kit out for DVD production as the process is very similar.
Also, most CD/DVDs are pressed by a few out-source companies, very few places do it in-house afaik.

Praetorian · 11-12-2003 9:58am

I deal with Sonopress quite a lot, they say that a dvd costs between 5-6 times as much as a cd to duplicate. Their cost price would still be quite low for a dvd though; around 60 cents.

New PC technology

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