Townies and Charlie McCreevy

MDR

Charlie McCreevey said something along of the lines of stopping 'Policy being written in Dublin for the Dublin mindset', when advocating the transferring of 10,000 civil service jobs to areas outside of Dublin.

I have no real problem with this policy, although I do believe the Minister should look again at paying a 'Dublin Allowance' to those who are left behind. Although his language bothers me.

You see instead of seeking to emphasise the positive by saying something like, we are transferring 10,000 civil service jobs out of the Dublin area, so that new policy can be broader in scope and have input from multiple sources ... or something like that ... instead of preaching the folly of policy written by the 'Dublin Mindset' ? Who is his speech writer anyway ?

Its language I have encountered before, people from outside Dublin generally dis-trust or have pre-conceptions about Dubliners, we are always up to something, always have something on the go etc, perhaps its my own paranoia, but is this type of language from Government an extension of that kind of thinking. You only find the same level of pre-conception about minority groups like Asylum seekers and Travellers...

Gillie

Dublin is the Capital city so i'd expect services to be centralised!
I'm not from Dublin and the majority of ppl i've met from dublin are grand! I think ppl have made up their own mind on what they think of dubliners and McGreedy isn't going to influence them. But i'm sure fellow dubs will take offense to the way he made that statement and rightly so! Time and Time again the government seem to have the old "Foot in Mouth" disease!

Anyway. What type of jobs was he referring to? Can he move certain ares outside Dublin?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by MDR
Its language I have encountered before, people from outside Dublin generally dis-trust or have pre-conceptions about Dubliners, we are always up to something, always have something on the go etc, perhaps its my own paranoia, but is this type of language from Government an extension of that kind of thinking.

Ray, my experience has been that culchies tend to resent Dublin more than mistrust it. As an example, Mayo people look at the amount of money spent on doubling the width of the Westlink carpark, or Luas, or (saints preserve us) Metro plans, and wonder when we're going to get something resembling any kind of modern highway along the N5, or the Western Rail Corridor. The often-expressed feeling around here is that if Dublin gets any bigger, the whole country will tip over to the east and slide into the Irish Sea.

MDR

Funny its missed placed resentment,

I was watching the Ennis hospital protests last week, they claimed that if Ennis was closed Limerick regional hospital could end up 'as bad as Beaumount' in Dublin, more fool of Dubliners to put up with the state Beaumount is in fairness.

I get the same vibe when I listen to Platform 11 talking about CIE's policy of Palerail. The fact is that most of state still has infrastructure woeful inadequate to its needs Dublin inclusive, squabbling over Dublin getting more detract from the picture as a whole, it could be argued that the infrastructure deficit in Dublin is more pronounced than the rest of the country. I rarely find people in rural areas have commute times even closely resembling that of Dubliners.

Most people from outside Dublin, generally queue up to proclaim the fact that they would never live in Dublin, they couldn't put up with the traffic, the house prices etc the general grind ... and they begrudge every penny spent trying to alleviate these problems for Dubliners.

Due to the very distributed nature of our population is more not being spent per capita servicing the population outside Dublin? Especially when one considers spending on CAP (or whatever the replacement is) supporting rural communties.

seamus

Originally posted by Gilly2003
Dublin is the Capital city so i'd expect services to be centralised!

Maybe so, but there's being centralised for efficiency, and being centralised because it's easy.
Everything is in Dublin, and only adds to the problems when businesses insist on locating in Dublin.

Funnily enough, decentralisation is the solution to everyone's problems. As civil services move out, business and obviously workers will follow them.
This will reduce house prices, pressure on infrastructure, and retail prices in Dublin.

It will also stimulate new house growth, more jobs, and infrastructure outside of Dublin.

Why it wasn't done years ago is beyond me...

Imposter

I think you're coming from a Dublin view that's slightly biased there!

Yes rural communites get CAP payments. Yes services such as water, electric and phone cost more to provide in rural areas.

However dublin comes out well out of motorways (There are none that don't go to Dublin). Similar story with train lines. Also the costs of crime prevention are probably higher in Dublin per person than in rural areas. All in all it balances itself out and this begrudery you speak of is a two-way thing as can be seen from your post.

As for commute times that's a choice people make. Public transport is also usually an option (no matter how bad) in Dublin. It's rarely an option in rural areas.

Originally posted by MDR
Funny its missed placed resentment,

I was watching the Ennis hospital protests last week, they claimed that if Ennis was closed Limerick regional hospital could end up 'as bad as Beaumount' in Dublin, more fool of Dubliners to put up with the state Beaumount is in fairness.

I get the same vibe when I listen to Platform 11 talking about CIE's policy of Palerail. The fact is that most of state still has infrastructure woeful inadequate to its needs Dublin inclusive, squabbling over Dublin getting more detract from the picture as a whole, it could be argued that the infrastructure deficit in Dublin is more pronounced than the rest of the country. I rarely find people in rural areas have commute times even closely resembling that of Dubliners.

Most people from outside Dublin, generally queue up to proclaim the fact that they would never live in Dublin, they couldn't put up with the traffic, the house prices etc the general grind ... and they begrudge every penny spent trying to alleviate these problems for Dubliners.

Due to the very distributed nature of our population is more not being spent per capita servicing the population outside Dublin? Especially when one considers spending on CAP (or whatever the replacement is) supporting rural communties.

MDR

Why it wasn't done years ago is beyond me...

Well it was a process started some years ago, its seemed to be forgotten during the more excited years, but several government departments are already located outside Dublin, Department of Education in Athlone,my car tax goes to Clare etc. My only real concern would be that the Civil servants who remain get paid a 'Dublin Allowance' or 'Rent Allowance' so that their standard of living can equal that of their counterparts elsewhere. Proportionatily workers in other major towns like Cork and Galway should also recieve something.

I don't fear decentralisation, its just needs to be done proparily. Realistically Dublin has a quarter of the population, I would only expect that we would hang on to a quarter of Civil Service positions.

I would expect however that despite frequent cries of 'everything is located in Dublin', that Dubliners enjoy the same standard of living as their rural counterparts, everything from hospital waiting times, access to GP's , commuting times, planning, access to education etc and that when steps are taken to invest to try and balance these their is no cry of 'Dubliners getting everything'.

MDR

As for commute times that's a choice people make.

I don't see how it is a choice.

However dublin comes out well out of motorways (There are none that don't go to Dublin).

I think we are one of the few European capitals not to have a ring road. We are also I think the only European capital not to have a train line linking us with the Airport, disregarding light rail development in general. You say all roads lead to Dublin, all train lines lead to Dublin ?

In fairness the people of Dunleer, Duleek, Drogheda and Balbriggan etc all got a bypass before Dublin did (granted different scales), are these roads servicing Dublin or releaving traffic out of these towns ? If you ask the locals they say they are providing traffic releaf ?

o the costs of crime prevention are probably higher in Dublin per person than in rural areas

Oft cited statistic, more crime goes through Store Street Garda station in a year than goes through Connaught, does Store Street station receive the same commulative funding as all the Garda Stations in Connaught ?

All in all it balances itself out and this begrudery you speak of is a two-way thing as can be seen from your post.

Does it, do I get excited when people talk of moving jobs, depts and business out of Dublin ... nope, if moves are being made to rectify the level of economic investment in outside of Dublin, which you won't hear an arguement from me that their isn't imbalance, isn't it only fair that investment is made in the Dublin to bring the standard of living enjoyed by Dubliners to a level similar to that enjoyed by their counterparts outside Dublin.

Imposter

Originally posted by MDR
I don't see how it is a choice.

There's a few choices that would reduce commuting time. Some are not always practical. They include moving nearer to work. Giving up your suburban house to live in a city centre apartment for example. (Families can do this too, look at europe). Taking public transport. If everyone did it commuting times would drop drastically.

I think we are one of the few European capitals not to have a ring road. We are also I think the only European capital not to have a train line linking us with the Airport, disregarding light rail development in general. You say all roads lead to Dublin, all train lines lead to Dublin ?

The M50 exists. That's sort of a ring road. All motorways are in or araound Dublin and cater for traffic in and out of dublin. Dual carraigeways are (open to correction here) almost all on routes from Dublin to another city and not say on the Cork-Limerick route. Is Limerick-Galway-Sligo possible by train? No. All routes feed from Dublin. Cork -Limerick is possible via Limerick Junction. (Maybe there's one line from Cork to Rosslare or is that connections to Dublin lines as well).

In fairness the people of Dunleer, Duleek, Drogheda and Balbriggan etc all got a bypass before Dublin did (granted different scales), are these roads servicing Dublin or releaving traffic out of these towns ? If you ask the locals they say they are providing traffic releaf ?

That's becasue people going through these places are generally going to Dublin.

Oft cited statistic, more crime goes through Store Street Garda station in a year than goes through Connaught, does Store Street station receive the same commulative funding as all the Garda Stations in Connaught ?

This is possibly true and yes connaught stations get more funding in this case, i would imagine. But generally Dublin for 1m people gets more or at least as much as the other 2.5-3m of the population .

Does it, do I get excited when people talk of moving jobs, depts and business out of Dublin ... nope, if moves are being made to rectify the level of economic investment in outside of Dublin, which you won't hear an arguement from me that their isn't imbalance, isn't it only fair that investment is made in the Dublin to bring the standard of living enjoyed by Dubliners to a level similar to that enjoyed by their counterparts outside Dublin.

Why is the standard of living in Dublin lower than the rest of the country?

Commuting times are not an issue as people can change that if they were more willing. The standards of public transport are far better in Dublin than in the country. wrt hospitals a lot of hospitals are targetted for closure (wrongly in my opinion). Waiting times are also an issue outside of dublin too.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Imposter
However dublin comes out well out of motorways (There are none that don't go to Dublin).

You've got the wrong end of the stick there. All roads lead away from Dublin

MDR

Apart from the M50 which goes around Dublin.

You see roads which are being built to take services to and from Dublin, granted a major transport hub (Air, Rail and Freight) it being the capital city and all, aren't being built for the benefit of Dubliners. They relieve traffic (local congestion) for the benefit of people in areas outside Dublin, for the large majority of people who commute to work daily rarely see the benefits of such construction.

For your what I percieve your arguement to be to valid, Dubliners would have to enjoy better transport links than their counterparts in the rest of the country, frankily they don't. The current spate of road building is in large part for the benefit of people outside of the Dublin area to get people, goods and services to Dublin faster (for the benefit of non-Dubliners). How has the average Dubliner benefited from any motorway construction outside of the M50/Port-Tunnel ?

In fairness you say all trains go to Dublin, I say again, does benefit the average Dubliner ?

Granted Dubliners have a better developed Bus/Light Rail and soon Tram system, does all this infrastructure lead to shorter commute times than their counterparts elsewhere in country ? no ? our average commute is more than twice what it is elsewhere in the country because our infrasturture is inadequate to the task ?

As for the arguement of moving people to where the jobs are, well the equally well put the kibose on de-centralisation. Why de-centralise all the jobs out of Dublin, just move all the people to the city where the jobs are... as you propose. Whats good enough for the cat ...

But generally Dublin for 1m people gets more or at least as much as the other 2.5-3m of the population .

I invite you to study the Garda distribution figures on garda.ie, you will find that the number of Garda and investment in crime prevention is pretty much in line with population distribution and not the level of crime. This is clearily just a fact you pulled out of the sky.

As for the access to health and eduaction figures .... I suggest you read Fintan O'Toole's recent book ... er ... 'After the ball' ... Dubliners are far more likely to be ill and illiterate than the conterparts elsewhere, are less likely to get grants for education, are less likely to go university, have less access to free primary ... the list goes on and on ...

oscarBravo

Originally posted by MDR
As for the arguement of moving people to where the jobs are, well the equally well put the kibose on de-centralisation. Why de-centralise all the jobs out of Dublin, just move all the people to the city where the jobs are... as you propose. Whats good enough for the cat ...

I'm not sure where you're going with this, Ray. De-centralisation is good for everybody. It brings jobs to the regions, which tend to be blackspots. It can only encourage the development of communications infrastructure - need I say more to a fellow IOffl committee member? It de-congests Dublin's traffic and other infrastructural problems. It will increase the standard of living for Dubs and Culchies alike. I say roll it on.

MDR

I was replying to a statement by Imposter. I do support de-centralisation, however Imposter was arguing that if dubliners don't like their long commutes they should move closer to their jobs. I was retorting that the same could equally be said for people who live outside of Dublin, if they want a civil service job, move to Dublin. It was all a little tongue in check to illustrate a point.

Imposter

Originally posted by MDR
Apart from the M50 which goes around Dublin.

It's still Dublin. Around, towards or whatever it's still Dublin.

You see roads which are being built to take services to and from Dublin, granted a major transport hub (Air, Rail and Freight) it being the capital city and all, aren't being built for the benefit of Dubliners. They relieve traffic (local congestion) for the benefit of people in areas outside Dublin, for the large majority of people who commute to work daily rarely see the benefits of such construction.

For your what I percieve your arguement to be to valid, Dubliners would have to enjoy better transport links than their counterparts in the rest of the country, frankily they don't. The current spate of road building is in large part for the benefit of people outside of the Dublin area to get people, goods and services to Dublin faster (for the benefit of non-Dubliners). How has the average Dubliner benefited from any motorway construction outside of the M50/Port-Tunnel ?

In fairness you say all trains go to Dublin, I say again, does benefit the average Dubliner ?

I think all these points you raise benifit the dubliner as much as the non-dub. By-passes and motorways get goods into Dublin quicker, for the benifit of dubs. They get people into dublin quicker for their own benifits and also the benifits of Dublin's retailers and other businesses.

Granted Dubliners have a better developed Bus/Light Rail and soon Tram system, does all this infrastructure lead to shorter commute times than their counterparts elsewhere in country ? no ? our average commute is more than twice what it is
elsewhere in the country because our infrasturture is inadequate to the task ?

Again why don't you move closer to your job?

As for the access to health and eduaction figures .... I suggest you read Fintan O'Toole's recent book ... er ... 'After the ball' ... Dubliners are far more likely to be ill and illiterate than the conterparts elsewhere, are less likely to get grants for education, are less likely to go university, have less access to free primary ... the list goes on and on ...

This is not true of all Dublin. Dublin has some of the wealthiest areas in the country too.

As for these poorer and less well educated why is that? Do they not get schooling?

For me crime is more a reason than commuting times for the bad standard of living. I lived in Dublin for around 7 years i think the biggest problem with it is the minority of scumbags which are making life a misery for the rest of the people. These people can do what they want and the guards seem powerless to stop them.

Imagine a Dublin where people didn't have to worry about being robbed or attacked. Imagine parks and services that could exist without being vandalised. Imagine a dublin where people could live anywhere they wanted and not fear for their lives. That would be a better standard of living. So I really think that dubliners should start blaming their own before blaming the non dubliners for their standard of living.

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Ray, my experience has been that culchies tend to resent Dublin more than mistrust it. As an example, Mayo people look at the amount of money spent on doubling the width of the Westlink carpark, or Luas, or (saints preserve us) Metro plans, and wonder when we're going to get something resembling any kind of modern highway along the N5, or the Western Rail Corridor. The often-expressed feeling around here is that if Dublin gets any bigger, the whole country will tip over to the east and slide into the Irish Sea.

Nail, hammer, head (and no sore thumb)

I wish to subcribe to your newsletter oscarBravo....

ai ing

Imagine a Dublin where people didn't have to worry about being robbed or attacked. Imagine parks and services that could exist without being vandalised. Imagine a dublin where people could live anywhere they wanted and not fear for their lives.

Wouldnt it be nice if everybody was nice

MDR

I think all these points you raise benifit the dubliner as much as the non-dub.

From the perspective of the people living in these bypassed towns, these roads take traffic out of their communities and take people/goods/services to their market.
From a Dubliners perspective these roads bring people/goods/services to the city but do nothing to allieviate congestion etc in the city. So for who's benefit are they being built?

Again why don't you move closer to your job?

Well perhaps my kids are at school i don't want to disturb them, perhaps I can't afford to live where my job is, perhaps I like where I live ... etc. Why don't people move to where the jobs are, why aren't you obliging people from outside Dublin to do the same?

This is not true of all Dublin. Dublin has some of the wealthiest areas in the country too.

Dublin has the greatest divison between the rich and poor, nobody is denying that, I all I am saying is that a person is usually manifestily worse off living in the Dublin area than living outside it.

You have to stop and ask where these 'scumbags' have come from, what are the social conditions which caused this. Given that a child in a urban area and a rural area start out in life with nothing, what is absent in the urban childs life which is causing him/her to go down this road.

Why don't they have these problem in other countries, I'll tell you why, I lived in Saint Dennis in Paris for a year, Europe's most notorious area of urban decay. It is access to education, to health and to employment.

So I really think that dubliners should start blaming their own before blaming the non dubliners for their standard of living.

Hang on a moment, I amn't blaming non-Dubliners for Dublins social problems, although non-Dubliners do blame Dublin for their economic woes. All I am saying is if you are going to spend money on de-centralisation and similar investment to stimulate the economies of outside-Dublin areas, I would like to see similar monso being spent making Dublin a nice place to live and work, for the people who will stay behind. After all and I say this without malice, our nation has a habit of under-investment in Dublin, despite it generating the majority of the tax haul, per head less is spent on the welfare of Dubliners than any other county in our nation, economies of scale would account for some this but not all.

Imposter

Originally posted by MDR
From the perspective of the people living in these bypassed towns, these roads take traffic out of their communities and take people/goods/services to their market.
From a Dubliners perspective these roads bring people/goods/services to the city but do nothing to allieviate congestion etc in the city. So for who's benefit are they being built?

I agree with that but think about it the congestion is there because Dublins infrastructure is ****. But it's the same all over the country.

Well perhaps my kids are at school i don't want to disturb them, perhaps I can't afford to live where my job is, perhaps I like where I live ... etc. Why don't people move to where the jobs are, why aren't you obliging people from outside Dublin to do the same?

But you do have the choice to move nearer your job, possibly get a different job. YOu just chose not to and then complain as there are thousands more like you doing the same and so congestion happens. I hear your reasoning here but all i'm saying is that you do have options although you are taking what you perceive to be the best one for you and your family.

As for your question if that's about the decentralisation then I think decentralising will reduce some of the congestion problems. It won't solve them but it definitely should reduce some of it.

Dublin has the greatest divison between the rich and poor, nobody is denying that, I all I am saying is that a person is usually manifestily worse off living in the Dublin area than living outside it.

You have to stop and ask where these 'scumbags' have come from, what are the social conditions which caused this. Given that a child in a urban area and a rural area start out in life with nothing, what is absent in the urban childs life which is causing him/her to go down this road.

Why don't they have these problem in other countries, I'll tell you why, I lived in Saint Dennis in Paris for a year, Europe's most notorious area of urban decay. It is access to education, to health and to employment.

All kids have access to education (primary and secondary). The difference for me is the attitude of the parents towards the childs education. That's what needs to be addressed. Parenting is as big a problem as policing imo. The reason why it's hard to deal with this is it's very difficult to educate the parents on how to be a parent.

Hang on a moment, I amn't blaming non-Dubliners for Dublins social problems, although non-Dubliners do blame Dublin for their economic woes. All I am saying is if you are going to spend money on de-centralisation and similar investment to stimulate the economies of outside-Dublin areas, I would like to see similar monso being spent making Dublin a nice place to live and work, for the people who will stay behind. After all and I say this without malice, our nation has a habit of under-investment in Dublin, despite it generating the majority of the tax haul, per head less is spent on the welfare of Dubliners than any other county in our nation, economies of scale would account for some this but not all.

Dublin by it's location and the fact that it is the capital can generate enough employment for itself. Dublin has expanded too quickly and now it's bulging at the seams. Decentralising government departments might reduce some of those pressures and make dublin a better place. Here's hoping it does.

ai ing

The difference for me is the attitude of the parents towards the childs education. That's what needs to be addressed. Parenting is as big a problem as policing imo. The reason why it's hard to deal with this is it's very difficult to educate the parents on how to be a parent.

Yeah imo parents should have to pass some other exam other than the practical one

dr_manhattan

a fundamental characteristic of the irish is that, unlike other countries that have had a defining civil war in the past 100 years and still hinge on the percieved political / social / economic divides of that time, we pretend no problems exist. We even pretend to get on with each other.

I got to be honest, all I see here is a determination of both sides to see the other in terms of stereotypes. When dublin is discussed then traffic and crime are used. When the rest of the country is discussed, small regional communities are used, ideas of burdens on ireland's 'real' economy, etc.

I carry both passports, having spent the first 12 years of my life outside the pale before my family returned to the capital: and as such I find both sides of this recurring countryside v dublin debate kind of hilarious: not that this discussion is valueless, it's just that the civil war politics are never far beneath the waves.

But one thing I would say, is if some Dub said "policy being shaped in the countryside for the countryside mindset" I'm sure there'd have to be apologies all round to those of our rural brethren being so gravely offended. I've spent enough time talking to non-dubs who think of me as a fellow culchie, to not spot that attitude of resentment which always crops up.

And though dubs are not blameless either, I do find that when a dub asks a countryboy about farming, he's usually joking, whereas when a countryboy asks a dub about ram raiding, heroin and lapdancing, he's usually not.

I'm sure I'll get slated for this, but believe me, I'm laughing here quite heartily....

MDR

got to be honest, all I see here is a determination of both sides to see the other in terms of stereotypes. When dublin is discussed then traffic and crime are used. When the rest of the country is discussed, small regional communities are used, ideas of burdens on ireland's 'real' economy, etc.

Do you believe as a nation we have trouble empathising with communities other than our own. By way of example, my uncle farms on the Dublin/Wicklow Border areas.

For years my dad was Garda in Ballymun during the late eighties and early nineties, these where horrendous times for the ordinary people of the city due to a completely out of control drug and organised crime problem. My uncle during this period was content to let 'Dubliners get on with it', 'no concern of his', he had very little concerns outside of farming.

Then this year Dublin has sprawled out to his community and the locals are suffering a sort of a crime wave. His complaints about the Garda doing nothing, it all being the government's fault met my bemused smile ... like are you expecting me to excited about your predicament now ?.

We where both equally at fault, do we as a nation have difficulty putting ourselves in the others position ? Is this the nature of our tribal politics ?

dr_manhattan

Tell you what, I think this is a topic worthy of discussion in and of itself (plus this place seems quite heavily moderated, so we may be 'off topic' heh)

I'll start andother thread in this section.

but briefly, yes: not only do I think it's a trait, I think that as an island nation, it unfortunately tends to define us, in the same way that, if left unchecked, ones worse side always defines oneself: for the irish, I believe that parochial tendencies are like this.

See ya on the new thread ;-)

Atreides

Originally posted by seamus
why it wasn't done years ago is beyond me...

Because all the top civil servants are in Dublin. Have families in Dublin, have a life in Dublin, and your not about to get 10,000 to up sticks and move to the middle of no where. To some place with maybe a couples of choices of school, sweat feic all in the way of facilities. There is zero chance of getting that amount of people to move out of Dublin unless you offer them something in return. And the more remote they are the more you will have to offer. Not everyone wants to live in limerick.

dr_manhattan

"Not everyone wants to live in limerick."

Sorry, I can't help but giggle on that one. Yeah, yeah, I know, I've nothing real to contribute in reply except that ;-)

mike65

Gay Mitchell has just been on The Last Word on Today FM with Matt Cooper playing "the Dublin Card" as he rails against culchies for being TDs in Dublin and taking all "our jobs and women!"

Okay I made the last bit up but he was deffo talking like he had spotted a way of getting more votes in Dublin at the next election.

"Fine Girl - Defender of the Pale"?

Mike.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Skanger
To some place with maybe a couples of choices of school, sweat feic all in the way of facilities.

Like, oh, Lucan? Cosmopolitan paradise.

I've lived in Mullingar, Galway, Dublin and (now) Mayo. I doubt I could ever hack living in Dublin again. Some people move out of the city and (like me) could never contemplate moving back. Some people can't imagine sleeping without streetlights shining in the windows. I suspect most people will go where the job takes them, and are flexible enough to make a life there.

Atreides

I recon your wrong. Would you move to Dublin if your job decided to relocate, leaving friends and family and your life. Maybe you would if your young, otherwise you wouldn't, not without money and a promotion. There's over 50 locations selected for this, not all are lucan. I fail to see how small towns ill be able to provide facilities for these departments. I mean this is going to cost far more then the few million set aside for it, your talking major building works. I look at the amount of money and time it took to reorganize the revenue commissioners recently, there is zero chance of this happening on any wide scale. I'd say the OPW will move to trim alright but apart from that nothing.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Skanger
I recon your wrong. Would you move to Dublin if your job decided to relocate, leaving friends and family and your life. Maybe you would if your young, otherwise you wouldn't, not without money and a promotion.

Me? I left a very well-paid job in Dublin without even a job to go to. It will be interesting to see how many people are happy to move. Remember, a lot of civil servants are culchies who had to move to the smoke to get a job in the first place.

I fail to see how small towns ill be able to provide facilities for these departments.

MBNA set up in Carrick-on-Shannon. AFAIK there are over a thousand people working there. The town is positively thriving.

Imposter

People who are saying that the decentralisation won't work or its too expensive need to remember that the current offices in Dublin can be sold. The money they raise will easily build similar offices in other rural centres. You've also got to remember that a lot of people already live in these centres that the various departments will move to, so facilities are already in place. It may be the middle of nowhere in terms of location but that is also half way to everywhere!

The infrastructure may need to be improved but that is because of the expansion the various towns will undergo. This expansion should also encourage other businesses and facilities to locate at these centres causing the towns and cities to regain what most of them have lost with the recent exodus towards Dublin.

MDR

Okay I made the last bit up but he was deffo talking like he had spotted a way of getting more votes in Dublin at the next election.

In fairness are FF and the PD's not doing exactly the same thing here except for the electorate outside Dublin ? They will all use this to their advantage.

Some people can't imagine sleeping without streetlights shining in the windows. I suspect most people will go where the job takes them, and are flexible enough to make a life there.

There is a difference between a free-flowing, egalitarian and clean city like Paris, and the metropolis Dublin has become. I don't need to re-iterate the problems of the city, most of you are very familiar with them and some of you have left the city because of them. Do you begrudge investment in the city to try and improve the quality of life of the people there, most agree they have better quality of life elsewhere ?

Those people in Mayo you speak would never contemplate moving to Dublin because of this issues, do they presume that Dubliner's are happy living under these conditions. The number of people I meet, friends and family who no longer live in Dublin because of these reasons and yet wouldn't support investment to try and alleviate these problems .... is dis-heartening

All I am argueing for is fair investment, I feel that Dubliner are no less entitled to quality of life than their counterparts elsewhere, and hence the governmental spend per head should at least match the spend elsewhere.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by MDR
Do you begrudge investment in the city to try and improve the quality of life of the people there

Absolutely not. That investment needs to be worthwhile, however.

By decentralising, you reduce the demands on transport infrastructure in the capital, which means that car, bus and Dart journeys are a lot more pleasant. You reduce the demand for houses in Dublin, thereby easing the pressure on prices, and allowing for something remotely resembling sane planning.

I firmly believe that investment in the regions is every bit as important for Dublin as it is for the rest of the country.

It may well be true that there is less per-capita investment in Dublin, in some ways. What's extremely doubtful is whether just chucking money at an already overcrowded city is going to do anything to alleviate any imbalance in living standards.

Lemming

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Absolutely not. That investment needs to be worthwhile, however.

By decentralising, you reduce the demands on transport infrastructure in the capital, which means that car, bus and Dart journeys are a lot more pleasant. You reduce the demand for houses in Dublin, thereby easing the pressure on prices, and allowing for something remotely resembling sane planning.

Hmmm .. lots of empty government buildings. What do you think is going to happen with them? Other companies moving in perhaps?

So you're not reducing anything in Dublin. The entire thing is a fudge. It's another ill-thought out government no-brainer. Some of the departments in question didn't even KNOW about it until they heard McCreevy announcing it in his budget.

And why is a relocation issue being brought up in a budget in the first place??

It may well be true that there is less per-capita investment in Dublin, in some ways. What's extremely doubtful is whether just chucking money at an already overcrowded city is going to do anything to alleviate any imbalance in living standards.

"Chucking money" most certainly wont do anything, which is all the current wasters seem capable of doing. A little forward planning. A little fore-sight would go a long way. But noooooo, they're incapable of it.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Lemming
Hmmm .. lots of empty government buildings. What do you think is going to happen with them? Other companies moving in perhaps?

So you're not reducing anything in Dublin.

It's obvious that just moving a bunch of civil servants out of the city isn't going to solve the long-term problems in one fell swoop. What might just help, however, is a less Dublin-centric philosophy, starting at government level and filtering down from there. As long as administration and policy-making are centred in Dublin, it will always be seen as the logical place to set up business. If the government, on the other hand, show by example that it's entirely possible to do business out in the regions, then maybe businesses will be more inclined to do so.

A little forward planning. A little fore-sight would go a long way.

My point precisely.

MDR

I amn't advocating the 'chucking' of money at the problems of Dublin and I don't doubt that both of us can come up with many examples of where this has been the case.

You see here we return the problem of language, I talk about equal and fair investment, you talk about 'chucking money at the problems of the city'. You could have advocated the introduction of guards to ensure the money is well spent without the negative connotation that any extra spend, would amount to chucking money at the problem.

You see the thing is, more money is invested in the regions, is investment in Dublin every bit as important as the regions ? and if so when can I look forward to increasing spending in the Dublin area to match the per capita spend elsewhere, without cries of us all being danger of tipping into the sea ? Open ended question i accept.

MDR

And why is a relocation issue being brought up in a budget in the first place??

It looks like they are delivering jobs, when in fact they are just moving people already in those jobs. I can't blame the civil servants for wanting to move, they are paid shag all and have to live in one Europes most expensive city, without any state or employee allowances for the extra cost of living that in city.

Atreides

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Me? I left a very well-paid job in Dublin without even a job to go to. It will be interesting to see how many people are happy to move. Remember, a lot of civil servants are culchies who had to move to the smoke to get a job in the first place. MBNA set up in Carrick-on-Shannon. AFAIK there are over a thousand people working there. The town is positively thriving.

When it done right, but if its done on the cheap it won't work. My mother is one of those people who moved to dublin for the civil service, but at this stage shes more dub then cork. As for people saying goverment buildings will be sold. Not really Most will be taken over by other sections of the civil service, like several RC buildings are now part of DOI, such as apollo house on tara street.

I've no doubt that you iwll get people to move out of dublin, but your not going to get half of all dublin civil servants to move, and your not goign to get unions to agree without big pay outs

Lemming

Originally posted by MDR
It looks like they are delivering jobs, when in fact they are just moving people already in those jobs. I can't blame the civil servants for wanting to move, they are paid shag all and have to live in one Europes most expensive city, without any state or employee allowances for the extra cost of living that in city.

But this my point. This is *nothing* to do with the budget. Which makes me all the more suspicious of the level of thought that went into this. The fact that many departments to be affected weren't even notified reeks further of PR-spin.

The buildings to be vacated will be filled, with pretty much the same number of cars, darts, and buses being called upon, and the vacated houses will simply be filled immediately by the influx of these new people without any effect on any infrastructure or thehousing prices. In short, it's about as thought out as a steaming pile of rancid sh*t.

Well done McGreedy. You're amazing. You never fail to surprise me with the level of idiocy you're willing to dig yourself into.

I'm not saying this isn't a bad idea ever, but I'm simply saying the context in which it has been brought forth and the motives therein are extremely suspect.

Imposter

Originally posted by MDR
You see the thing is, more money is invested in the regions, is investment in Dublin every bit as important as the regions ? and if so when can I look forward to increasing spending in the Dublin area to match the per capita spend elsewhere, without cries of us all being danger of tipping into the sea ? Open ended question i accept. [/B]

The reason more money is now invested in the regions is because of the decline of the regions and the growth of Dublin over the years. In other words investment by businesses, mostly, in dublin. How many industries have closed in the regions and nothing has replaced them? I imagine you're talking about just state investment infrastructure but it's all related imo.

The trend of everyone going to Dublin needs to be reversed. If it is reversed it will take pressure off Dublin as well as benifiting the regions.

It looks like they are delivering jobs, when in fact they are just moving people already in those jobs. I can't blame the civil servants for wanting to move, they are paid shag all and have to live in one Europes most expensive city, without any state or employee allowances for the extra cost of living that in city.

They are usually prepared to 'work' for this 'shag all' money and they choose to be in Dublin. They always have choices. Earnings in Dublin are higher for the private sector though. Should private sector employees not in Dublin receive allowances too (for example, because maybe they need a car)?