Design Company quality mark

djk1000

Hi All,

Just want to start a discussion about a Web Design company quality mark scheme. my company has been designing professionally for a couple of years now and on several occasions, we have taken over projects that some cowboy has made a balls of. We also regularly loose out on quotes because some part time "designer" with a hookie copy of dreamweaver "will do the site for €500". So I'm wondering if people think a quality mark is practicle/workable/stupid/etc. I really haven't thought it through in detail but but just as a general idea.

mneylon

Maybe ISO 900*?

djk1000

ISO 900* Is a bit stringent, I thought of it and looked into it. A lot of Irish Design companies are small and have to be pretty fluid in the way they work. The documentation, quality manuals, forms, quality reviews, audits etc. that ISO requires would mean a huge shift in the way most business operate, it adds costs and complications to the business process. ISO is a certified quality system wheras I'm suggesting a quality mark based on the quality of the product (past customers fill in a quick survey or something) What I'm saying is that instead of implementing a quality system (ISO is not a "mark" it's a "system") companies could be given marks out of ten for reliability/ meeting deadlines/ offering good customer care/ doing good design/ being good programmers if they're good, they get the mark. (that's just an example, as I said before I haven't thought it through properly)

RicardoSmith

Well if you are getting work that other people have screwed up I don't see the problem. Because that makes you look good no? Secondly if you are losing work to part time "designers" theres a couple of way of looking at it. Generally part timers get the jobs that no one else wants because they are small money and no one else wants to do them. A lot of the time the client isn't willing to pay any more than a partimers fees anyway so you're not loosing out. However if a Part Timer is beating your sales pitch then you'd have to look at that as a seperate problem.

As for "hookie" software, well thats a different issue altogether isn't it?

A quality mark is a bit of a sales pitch in itself. Lots of web, macromedia and adobe training courses and certifications out there to certify all your people so why not get that for starters.

Fergal C

Excellence Ireland have a certification called Foundation Mark, which is suitable for small companies and aiding them with the management of their business.

I have met with companies that have been through it, from very different business sectors and they all found the process very beneficial. You will benefit most if you get a good consultant to guide you through it. I would presume Excellence Irl can provide you with a list of locally certified people.

ClaireAshe

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Well if you are getting work that other people have screwed up I don't see the problem. Because that makes you look good no? Secondly if you are losing work to part time "designers" theres a couple of way of looking at it. Generally part timers get the jobs that no one else wants because they are small money and no one else wants to do them. A lot of the time the client isn't willing to pay any more than a partimers fees anyway so you're not loosing out. However if a Part Timer is beating your sales pitch then you'd have to look at that as a seperate problem.

As for "hookie" software, well thats a different issue altogether isn't it?

A quality mark is a bit of a sales pitch in itself. Lots of web, macromedia and adobe training courses and certifications out there to certify all your people so why not get that for starters.

I was just about to reply to this, but you read my mind. There is always somebody that knows somebody and so on...

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by ClaireAshe
I was just about to reply to this, but you read my mind. There is always somebody that knows somebody and so on...

I'd say about 50% of the jobs I get offered end up being done by someone the client knows indirectly. Its the Irish way.

p

If the client has some monkey who can do the job for €500 euro let them.

Just simply say to them, you can get Joe Schmoe for €500 if you like, but you get what you pay for.

Ask them what impression do they want their company to have, do they want their company to company to look like a second hand car shop, or a nice dealership.

By all means let them make the choice, but make sure they realise what they're choosing. Often the problem is that they don't.

Another analaogy is would they let some guy with a few pencils design the building they work in, or would they get an architect?


Design Badge is one of those ideas that's good in theory but doesn't work in practice. Even amongst designers people will argue what's good & bad.

ClaireAshe

If anybody gets a website done but some so called "Designers", they are usually sorry when there is no come back from it.

Any good designers knows that creating a website layout is easy, (FrontPage, from Microsoft - including some nice DHTML), but what about the optimisation to get it into the search engines rank, error handling, and so on. The list is heavy so I'll leave it here for the moment.

Figment

Originally posted by ClaireAshe
Any good designers knows that creating a website layout is easy, (FrontPage, from Microsoft - including some nice DHTML),

eh? O K......

mneylon

Claire - with all due respect FrontPage is junk.

ClaireAshe

Originally posted by blacknight
Claire - with all due respect FrontPage is junk.

We know that.

mneylon

Originally posted by ClaireAshe
We know that.

So what were you implying earlier? It gave the distinct impression that you considered FP to be a good design tool.

ClaireAshe

Originally posted by blacknight
So what were you implying earlier? It gave the distinct impression that you considered FP to be a good design tool.

Sorry, you got me wrong there.
All I am saying is that FP comes as part of Microsoft package. There is people out there that are using it to create their own website or for somebody they know.


I use DW MX2004 and I always used Macromedia software, but I got to update few of the FP made websites, and let me tell you I had to start from scratch.

RicardoSmith

Theres always the clients who can't tell the difference between something thats thrown together using word and clipart (I kid you not) and something has been designed and coded properly. Those so called "Designers" are welcome to clients like that. I don't see how a quality mark would help that to be honest. Surely your previous work and clients should be all the accreditiation you need. If someone needs to see a quality mark and can't see the quality/value in your existing work then do you really want that client?

p

RS - again, a client hires you because they can't neccessarily see the difference between good and bad design. They may see some elements and not others but you have to assume they're coming ot you to provde the service IMO.

If you hire an architect you assume they'll design the building so it won't fall down, but most clients sure as hell won't know the difference between a building that will or won't have good foundations etc... That's where the value comes in IMO.

Design is about more than what you can just see, as you well know, but that's what you're selling. You're experience, your talent, the process, not the end result asuch.

Hillman Curtis talks about a lot of this in his book, & I think that's well worth reading

Lukin Black

Originally posted by p
Hillman Curtis talks about a lot of this in his book, & I think that's well worth reading

What's the name of it?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by p
RS - again, a client hires you because they can't neccessarily see the difference between good and bad design. They may see some elements and not others but you have to assume they're coming ot you to provde the service IMO.

If you hire an architect you assume they'll design the building so it won't fall down, but most clients sure as hell won't know the difference between a building that will or won't have good foundations etc... That's where the value comes in IMO.

Design is about more than what you can just see, as you well know, but that's what you're selling. You're experience, your talent, the process, not the end result asuch.

Hillman Curtis talks about a lot of this in his book, & I think that's well worth reading

If I buy a house I'm not buying the end result. Not with you there....

p

Book is called: MTIV : Process, Inspiration, and Practice for the New Media Designer.

http://www.amazon.com/hillman/

RS - absolutely, if your'e buying a house you're buying the building, but if you're hiring an architect to design a building, you're paying for their expertise, and the process of designing a solution to a problem.

That's the way I view designers, as visual problem solvers, and that's what you're selling imo. I like the way this companies website tries to sell the process rather than just the design: http://www.thompsondesign.co.uk/

I think, that it's the difference between a service provider and a retailer.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by p
...
I think, that it's the difference between a service provider and a retailer.

I like and agree with that idea in principle. But I find it rare that a client is interested in the process. Usually they want the end result yesterday and rarely value any ingenuity in problem solving. In fact its more common that the client wishes to dictate the process as much as possible.

dazberry

Originally posted by p
If the client has some monkey who can do the job for €500 euro let them.

Just simply say to them, you can get Joe Schmoe for €500 if you like, but you get what you pay for.

Price (either way) is no way indicative of quality unfortunately.

D.

p

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I like and agree with that idea in principle. But I find it rare that a client is interested in the process. Usually they want the end result yesterday and rarely value any ingenuity in problem solving. In fact its more common that the client wishes to dictate the process as much as possible.

Yea, that's very true. Personally I feel that many designers don't sell their product in the right mannor (myself included)

I remember reading about architects before, and there's many tricks in order to focus the client correctly.

e.g. If you're planning a kitchen, they'll give the client a few different types of tiles to chose from, but they'll never even ask them if they think the sink should be near the cooker, they'll just make sure it is.

I think how you present yourself & how you sell your service is crucial to how your client will work with you. Many clients will simply follow your lead.

Of course, I'm still trying to learn how to do that, but that's the challenge of becoming a professional I suppose.

Figment

Originally posted by p
e.g. If you're planning a kitchen, they'll give the client a few different types of tiles to chose from, but they'll never even ask them if they think the sink should be near the cooker, they'll just make sure it is.[/B]

Heh
I like that

dazberry

Originally posted by p
I remember reading about architects before, and there's many tricks in order to focus the client correctly.

e.g. If you're planning a kitchen, they'll give the client a few different types of tiles to chose from, but they'll never even ask them if they think the sink should be near the cooker, they'll just make sure it is.

No no no no no! 'cos you're not fitting kitchens!!!! Client picks tiles and units (design). One of the great failings of kitchen designers is that they put hard tiles on the floor which are of course waterproof (feature), but if the kitchen is extensively used, it can be hard on the feet and back because the floor is so hard for standing around on (function). But even at that, the new kitchen in interoperable with everything, i.e. you get an electrican and plumber and they hook everything up (legacy), and the client knows how to move the dirty dishs to the sink or dishwasher (process).

A lot of web ppl look at design, and feature. I'm of the opinion that feature isn't any good without function. Get the function right, and then worry about the features - i.e. the greatest bread crumb trail or DHTML menu is useless if the core of the site is to do a product search, and that's done badly. Then if the website involves carrying a database, how are you going to get the data from some esoteric 1991 DOS database, and more importantly how is the data going to be updated on an ongoing bases, both in legacy terms and in process terms.

From a software engineering point of view, I've found more and more that I need to know the processes of the business and the exceptions there in. Websites might be a bit more abstracted, but likewise I'm finding they're more tied into the data flow of organisations as the functional requirements of the sites increase.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that often websites are more tied into a business and the way the do or need to do things, possibly more than the client actually realises. In many cases I don't see them as a product but as a solution, because that solution has to address a number of requirements beyond that of a website.

My 2 cents

D.

p

I didn't say the tiles were for the floor

But you're right, Design in the strictest sense is more than just visuals. A well designed website is one that follows the funciton well, as well as representing the compnay in a correct visual style.

The old idiom Form follows function says it all.