I'm not a racist but .................

Big al

I'll laugh all day at these a$$holes

JOHNSON CITY, Tennessee (AP) -- A bullet fired in the air during a Ku Klux Klan initiation ceremony came down and struck a participant in the head, critically injuring him, authorities said.

Gregory Allen Freeman, 45, was charged with aggravated assault and reckless endangerment in the Saturday night incident that wounded Jeffery S. Murr, 24.

About 10 people, including two children, had gathered for the ceremony. The man who was being initiated was blindfolded, tied with a noose to a tree and shot with paintball guns as Freeman fired a pistol in the air to provide the sound of real gunfire, Sheriff Fred Phillips said.

A bullet struck Murr on the top of the head and exited at the bottom of his skull, authorities said.

Freeman fled the ceremony but was arrested near his home, authorities said. He was released on $7,500 bail.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/South/11/24/klan.initiation.ap/index.html

DaithiSurfer

how the hell could a bullet falling go through someones head.
Nt a chance they dont fall that fast.

Billy Turdhed

32 feet per second to a max vel of 120 ft per second

Just to get things right



BT

Peace

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
how the hell could a bullet falling go through someones head.
Nt a chance they dont fall that fast.

You're wrong, they do fall that fast and can kill on the way down.

quank

what morons.......


anyway, i dont believ he shot into the air, and then came down, seems WAY too coincidentel

mike65

Only if they're heavy enough though.....

Mike.

DeadBankClerk

They fall at the same speed that they went up with, less the speed loss from the bullet not spinning and air friction.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Big al
I'll laugh all day at these a$$holes

JOHNSON CITY, Tennessee (AP) -- A bullet fired in the air during a Ku Klux Klan initiation ceremony came down and struck a participant in the head, critically injuring him, authorities said.

Natural Selection at its best!

LegacyUser

its the old 'a penny dropped from the top of the empire state building will kill you' job football players hit on the head with a coin chucked from the stands have been cut open, im sure a bullet coming down on ur noggin could do some serious damage

DMT

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
how the hell could a bullet falling go through someones head.
Nt a chance they dont fall that fast.

It'a called basic physics....

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Billy Turdhed
32 feet per second to a max vel of 120 ft per second

120ft where did you get this from ??


Assuming the bullet is of spherical shape...
Stoke's Settling Law Exercise

Stoke's Settling Law is: Vo = g (f - s) DD/18 * v

The variables (in MKS units) are as follows:
Vo = the terminal fall velocity
g = gravitational constant = 9.8 m/s2
f = density of the fluid = 1.3 kg/m3 for air (1025 kg/m3 for water)
s = density of the solid = 11,340 kg/m3
D = diameter of the sphere in meters
v = viscosity of the fluid = 0.000018 kg/ms for air
(0.00905 kg/ms for water)

Answers on a postcard.....

DaithiSurfer

DMT - Go on then expert tell us about this basic physics you speak of then then and how it proves that a bullet accelerated ONLY by gravity has enough force to pass right through a skull.

And do it without midnights provided formula so all us people who don't understand basic physics can be informed by you the basic physics master.

Calibos

Haven't done physics since my inter cert 15 years ago but common sense tells me that a bullet shot straight into the air will not come down at the same speed less spining and air friction as deadbankclerk says. It'll travel straight...ish up at supersonic speeds with gravity slowing it down. It'll eventually stop in mid air and then start falling, accelerating up to terminal velocity for a bullet which while quite high as terminal velocities go cause the bullet is so small and aerodynamic (ie the terminal velocity for a falling bullet will be greater than the terminal velocity of a coin of the same weight cause its more aerodynamic). However the Terminal velocity will be nowhere near the supersonic muzzle velocity of a bullet and unlikely to penetrate the skull although probably capable of a skull fracture.

People have been killed by falling bullets but these were probably fired up at an angle on a parabolic course which would maintain more of their initial muzzle velocity seeing as gravity wouldn't have as much time to slow the bullets down before they reached the earth again .Remember a bullet fired straight up gives gravity enough time to slow it to a stop and it only gains terminal velocity on the way down.

The story is bogus cause the bullet would have to travel almost exactly straight up and for there to be no cross winds to blow it off course on its way up or down for it to hit another member of the group probably standing only a few feet from the gun owner. If the conditions like I have explained were present then the bullet can only be traveling at terminal velocity when it hits the guy and thus he can't have a bullet in his skull! For the bullet to penetrate as I said the bullet would have to be on a parabolic course and if that was the case then the bullet would have landed miles away and would not have hit another member of the group.

Ehhh.....I am so sad.....I think I'll go to bed :rolleyes: :D:D

Epitaph

At the peak of the travel path i.e. when the bullet's turning around, it's velocity is zero but is still accelerating.

The velocity of it when it hits the ground would be mainly dependent in the height it attained when fired initially. From a handgun, I'd say, what, 50 meters?? (no clue about handgun ranges)

On the way down, because the bullet is tiny and streamlined, air resistance would be minimal and it'd reach terminal velocity fairly fast. Mass doesn't matter.

One of Newton's Laws of Motions -->
V^2 = U^2 + 2aS
(final vel squared = initial velocity + twice acceleration x distance traveled)

Works both ways, up and down. Take vertically upwards as positive.
Up:
U = + muzzle (initial) velocity
V = 0 (final vel, by definition)
a = gravity (negative / opposing upwards motion)
then S is the only unknown and easily calculable.

Down:
S = calculated in first bit
U = 0 (initial velocity of falling bullet)
a = gravity (negative again - pay attention!)
so now V's the unknown

--> maximum speed of bullet lodging in redneck's noggin as we're ignoring air resistance for the moment,

/collapses

ur mentor

Surely the physics here is about forces? When bullet fired initially the force is the gunpowder charge driving the reaction. when bullet reaches top of flight it doesn't get another kick. it simply accelerates from zero by force of gravity. it cannot attain its initial velocity as theenergy used to generate that is dissipated in heat as it overcomes gravity.
It will land at speed and may cause damage to skin but to actually break the skull bone? unless it hit a weak point it is hard to imagine.
Tend to agree that it may have struck on way up. Also bullets can travel for up to a mile in the case of a .22 if fired in parabola at shallow up angle. killing range is much less more like 400 yards.
Thats my 2 cents anyway.

Woden

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
120ft where did you get this from ??


Assuming the bullet is of spherical shape...
Stoke's Settling Law Exercise

Stoke's Settling Law is: Vo = g (f - s) DD/18 * v

The variables (in MKS units) are as follows:
Vo = the terminal fall velocity
g = gravitational constant = 9.8 m/s2
f = density of the fluid = 1.3 kg/m3 for air (1025 kg/m3 for water)
s = density of the solid = 11,340 kg/m3
D = diameter of the sphere in meters
v = viscosity of the fluid = 0.000018 kg/ms for air
(0.00905 kg/ms for water)

Answers on a postcard.....

Postcard

Vo = -3.43*10^4. The dimensionless analysis works out as ms^-1 as expected.

DaithiSurfer

Glad to see that peolpe know more about physiscs here than to just say something stupid like 'Its basic physics' without explaining.

The force would indeed be the defining factor though i think.

The heavier the bullet the more damage it would do at the velocity it reached.
I belive it it was a cannonball it might go through a skull when accelerated only by gravity but certainly not a handgun or a rifle bullet for that matter.

And yes a coin hurts when thrown or dropped but will not go through your skull.
A coin would be less aerodynamic when falling than a bullet so would travel slower. Unless of course you had flights on it to stop the tumbling or sufficient spin to last all the way down.

When thrown at a football match the coin hits edge on and so travels fast because of the spin it atains when thrown.
The gyroscopic force caused by the spin will keep it edges on so let it travel nice and fast when it hits the footballer (who gets hurt sometimes by the wind of someones leg moving close by in the box remember, so it wouldnt take much to hurt him).

neoB

About 10 people, including two children, had gathered for the ceremony. The man who was being initiated was blindfolded, tied with a noose to a tree and shot with paintball guns as Freeman fired a pistol in the air to provide the sound of real gunfire, Sheriff Fred Phillips said

What a way of an initiation.. can't help but laugh Wonder whats the story behind that. Fecking oddballs.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Dataisgod
Postcard

Vo = -3.43*10^4. The dimensionless analysis works out as ms^-1 as expected.

Sounds a tad high - orbital velocity is only about 0.8*10^4

A human will reach 190mph in a head down position (Guineess book etc)
A bullet is a lot denser than most humans (you know the sort they walk in the room and it gets dimmer 'cos the light bends towards them - hence the expression dim)

Back on topic - as the bullet travels up it will loose speed (kenetic energy) and gain height (potential energy) when it falls back down the opposite happens - excluding air resistance the bullet will be travelling at the same speed it left the gun when it desends to the same height

Taking into account air resistance - well the designers of the bullet have already done that and you can be fairly sure it will be aerodynamic. Also the losses from this will be a lot less than if the bullet had travelled horizontally for a similar distance - because as it travells up it gets slower.

If the wind was strong then it could blow a bullet back a bit - also it would be very strange if something like that never happened.

In many cases shrapnel from antiaircraft guns caused more damage than the attack itself..

ozt9vdujny3srf

When you fire a bullet in the air it will decelerate at -9.8 ms^-2 until it stops, it will then come down again, accelerating at 9.8 ms^s over the same distance it went up. chances are the bullet will be nearly (if not as) fast as it was going up. Like has been already mentioned above. Bloody ill-informed nay sayers .

Jim

didnt it happen to some guy in that film "the mexican".

not to be technical or anything.

DaithiSurfer

Doesnt the barrell of a gun have spiral shaped grooves to spin the bullet and therefore make it aerodynamic as it is fired. When this spinning moition stops the bullet tumbles making it less aerodynamic, therefore its terminal velocity would be lower.

Surely there must be some scientific website somewhere that would solve the argument once and for all
Anyone live in new york. Please drop a bullet off the empire state building on someones head for us.

DaithiSurfer

Not quiet scientific but all i could find.
I don't think this comes close though to proving that the bullet could go through a skull.

We should try it out.




http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950414b.html

Calibos

Back on topic - as the bullet travels up it will loose speed (kenetic energy) and gain height (potential energy) when it falls back down the opposite happens - excluding air resistance the bullet will be travelling at the same speed it left the gun when it desends to the same height

Eh no! So is there a little bullet cartridge waiting at the percise point that the bullet stops ascending, ready to dock with the bullet and then boost it back down at close to muzzle velocity. Your correct in saying that the bullet gains potential energy ie Height which is then converted to accelerating the bullet on the way down.....up to terminal velocity, not muzzle velocity.

DaithiSurfer

He's right according to the law of conservation of energy the bullet converts kinetic energy to potential energy as is goes up and the exact reverse on the way down.
If it was in a vacuum the speed that it hit the ground with would be the same as what it left at.
Air resistance though will disipate some of the energy as heat due to friction so slowing the bullet as it descends. It will also slow the bullet on the way up therefore wnsuring it doesnt reach the same potential energy as kinetic was when it left the gun.

Calibos

Na na na nana!! :D:D

Google is your friend!

http://www.loadammo.com/Topics/March01.htm

But!! Apparently it would fall back down at muzzle velocity if it were in a vacuum so we are actually both right and both wrong!!

Daithi, I was sure that newtons law of energy conservation could be explained by the bullet imparting most of the kinetic energy to the earth through the gun/arm/ body/feet and thus slowing down the earths rotation by an almost infinitesmally small amount, leaving only some of the kinetic energy to be converted to potential energy in the form of Height. But apparently not!!

DaithiSurfer

You're getting too deep for me now
I'll agree that it would give you some smack on the top of the head, might even kill you but i dont think it would go through your skull, but i guess you never know.
Its enough to keep me off the streets of LA on 4th july anyway.

amp

Maybe he had a particularly soft skull? Or maybe The Lord smote him?

red vex

the bullet wont kill him
it shouldnt even hurt him
it will fall out of control(ie spin)
the bullet its quite light

penguinbloke

what surprised was the total lack of wind.

for the bullet to land anywhere near him he would have had to shoot it almost perfectly straight into the air while there was absolutly no wind.

Or else he just happened to shoot the gun at the perfect angle to compensate for wind resistance for all the different velocities of winds.

It's a lot easier to describe with diagrams but this will have to do

Don1

Too much chance envolved. The probabilty of this actually happening is ridiculous to the extreme. It has been known to happen in the middle east during celebrations (which as a rule include manic wailingf and shooting AK-47s wildly into the sky!!) for showers of bullets to rain down on neighbouring towns!! Not five feet away!!

As for the speed of the bullet: Using differentiation, Newtons Laws, etc. will give the bullet the reverse of it's muzzle velocity (same speed opposite direction). This comes down to neglecting wind resistance, tumbling, etc. The bullet however will attain a speed great enough to penetrate a skull due to the height it has fallen from. A .22 rifle bullet will penetrate a corrigate iron shed roof after free falling, fact (saw it happen). Therefore extra mass = extra momentum. Skulls aren't that hard at the top either sooo...........

Also since the chap was most likley a redneck his skull would have had a partial vacuum thus makin it very easy to collapse!!

Dont Ban Me

I vote ye go prove or dis-prove it!!

woosaysdan

da fella was probably a thick c unt with a hollow skull

bonkey

Originally posted by penguinbloke
for the bullet to land anywhere near him he would have had to shoot it almost perfectly straight into the air while there was absolutly no wind.

You've obviously never thrown a frisbee to yourself while standing still, then, have you

jc

Barry Aldwell

Originally posted by penguinbloke
Or else he just happened to shoot the gun at the perfect angle to compensate for wind resistance for all the different velocities of winds.

Not as much of an issue with a low velocity pistol round, but there's also the earth moving beneath the bullet.

Victor

Originally posted by Barry Aldwell
Not as much of an issue with a low velocity pistol round, but there's also the earth moving beneath the bullet.

Not relevant as the earth, the air and the bullet are all rotating at the same speed ... not if you fired a ballistic missile into space that might be another matter, but not with bullets.

Those two articles indicate a speed of perhaps 0.3 Mach for the returning bullets. Note a silenced bullet travels at less than 1.0 Mach (it doesn't make a sonic boom) and can (does) kill. While a skull penetration is unlikely, it would be possible, serious injury is a given (which is what happened).

SoundWave

all the answers are here:

www.getafukinlifeandacceptit.com

or email here

[EMAIL=who.gives@shít.com]who.gives@shít.com[/EMAIL]

vibe666

you know damn well those dumb ass rednecks all have big ol' .50 cal desert eagles or similar which equates to a huge amount of lead coming down, so it could sell happen.

statistically, ok it's very improbable, but how many times have dumb ass rednecks or similar done just that same thing? sooner or later one of them (or one of his mates)is going to get a taste of his own medicine.

anyway, i like the story better when its true. make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

Gordon

I heard that in Afghanistan (before their 'war' with America) there was a high percentage of deaths by falling bullet due to the large amount of people shooting their Khalashnikov rifles into the air and saying "whoop". I wouldn't be surprised if it was true or false but it's a great story and the anti KKK spin doctors did a good job, kudos etc.

Woden

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Sounds a tad high - orbital velocity is only about 0.8*10^4

yeah it could be however when i put in the units into the analysis i was getting a weird answer out so i did all the numbers in s.i and with out the units and got that answer then did the unit analysis and that worked ah well i won't lose any sleep over it