Stem cell Research

star gazer

Agree with it or not, the guidelines for it within the EU are to be agreed to tommorrow. The moratorium on the research on embryos will end and there hasn't been any extensive consultation here from the government. The government agreed to this around the time of the last election and so it seems to have slipped by. Batt O'Keefe (FF) was on prime time saying he wasn't happy about the decision 18 months ago and felt that Mary Harney seemed to have done this on her own. A government statement was released rebuking O'Keefe's description that Harney acted unilaterally. This is coming in on the type of emotion that comes along with the abortion debate here and the government slip it through... were they right? maybe we do need to keep step with our european neighbours.

Sparks

Yes they were right. This line of research needs to be pursued. Closing it down because of the religious right, who do not represent the majority of religious peoples anyway, would be a serious mistake. Besides which, the use of aborted fetuses or "extra" IVF embryos isn't a moral quagmire - the former are allready dead and the latter will never see the inside of a womb, so using the tissue is the rational thing to do. Not to mention the fact that these embryos aren't people, no matter what a group of allegedly celibate old men in dresses may think on the matter.

miju

Originally posted by Sparks
Yes they were right. This line of research needs to be pursued. Closing it down because of the religious right, who do not represent the majority of religious peoples anyway, would be a serious mistake. Besides which, the use of aborted fetuses or "extra" IVF embryos isn't a moral quagmire - the former are allready dead and the latter will never see the inside of a womb, so using the tissue is the rational thing to do. Not to mention the fact that these embryos aren't people, no matter what a group of allegedly celibate old men in dresses may think on the matter.

I agree with everthing u said there Sparks EXCEPT the tissues are people and Im no religous nut or anything I mean lets be honest here everyone starts their life out like that no?

Éomer of Rohan

I agree with Sparks on everything including that which Raptor disagrees with; there are six billion definitely alive people on this planet and such research has the possibility of aiding them no end - just as soon as we pry it from the cold soon-to-be-dead fingers of the multi-nationals.

projectmayhem

stem cell research could save lives, why should we let it get bogged down by moralistic religious psychopaths who worship their "god"?

this is the real world.

gom

As sparks metioned:

IVF has numerous additional embyros remaining, i.e. extra. Why just dump them?
If the sort of Stem Cell Research that this EU protocol will allow is morally wrong for killing Embyros that are no more than 14days(the legislation doesn't allow research on an embyro over 14days - it must then be destroyed) . Then we must also ban the "Morning-After Pill" and "IVF treatment"...

Both the morning after pill and IVF result in the destruction of embyros. The Prof. of Genetics at Trinity College stated that an embyro of 14days has no brain, no identifable 'Human Exclusive' Cells, No Nervous System and it is just a mere blob of tissue 1/5 of mm. Is that Human?? It doesn't feel pain. It doesn't think and it is flushed down the toilet all over the country by women on the pill every day...

Religous Right UNITE... Time to take the fight to the Well Woman Centres...

Hypocracy is Rife in this country. I belive that the governement is to support this EU legislation which is a relief. But then to BAN IT IN IRELAND??? This is just an example at the genious in this country. We are prepared to support it. Both Legally(by allowing it in the EU) and Financial. We even fight off the moral dilemma. But no. Its not for little auld ireland to engage in perfectly ethical and benefical(financial also) research that could solve MS, Parkinsons, Muscialry Dysfunctia.... etc etc....


I wonder if the Pope will live longer because of Stem Cell Research?

Catholic Women are forced to use Mathamatics as a form of Contraception.... Why not Physics and Chemistry also??

star gazer

There does appear to be a moral hypocrisy in political circles about this issue, but surely even the more extreme elements of this type of debate should have their say no matter what the government decide. There is another dimension to the debate, the fact that there never seemed to be any large scale debate about this obviouly emotive issue. Maybe it had to be done on the qt to get it through before a non-enthusiatic Fianna Fail backbench bloked it. Still this type of action will only get opposers more angry and this could come back to bite some people in the Butt.

mike65

Speaking as a diabetic I'm all in favour of such research.
Its the practical benifits we should be thinking about not arcane Jesuitical debates....

Mike.

bonkey

What I find interesting is that not one person has indicated that they have a problem with a government (or a minister) having taken a unilateral decision on behalf of the entire nation apparently because you agree with the decision.

I'm guessing that had she refused to sign Ireland on board, and made that deicsion unilaterally, you'd all be jumping up and down and screaming bloody murder about non-representation, etc. etc. etc.

jc

mike65

Sorry Bonkey you're right thats a fair point, Though I suspect what the Irish government does or does'nt so on this issue really does'nt make a blind bit of difference as the research will still take place.

Mike.

star gazer

Apparently she okayed it with the Taoiseach, the ministers for foreign affairs, health and finance. Maybe they felt that the less people knew about it, the less chance there would be any trouble. The decision was postponed to december 3rd, Mary harney must be cringing about that when she thought she could pull a fast one.

Éomer of Rohan

Come on JC, you know me; the Tanaiste (sp?) did allow it without the public consent of the majority of the people in this country (or that country depending on your definition) but then since when has the government ever bothered their ass to go to the people? Hell the government is a coalition government of parties which can fundamentally disagree with one another - tell me that's democracy in action! Pah - unilateral action of a member of government? That's the norm! We object 'til we're hoarse but does it do any good

TomF

Well, I remember being sickened by reading in a research news magazine years ago that E.I. Lily & Co., a big pharmaceutical company, was researching a cure for the common cold by doing tests on rhinoviruses grown in media that was based on nasal passages taken from freshly-aborted human fetuses. I carried on a brief letter exchange with the head of research at the company who immediately took the morally-expedient low ground by saying that the tissue was going to go to waste anyway, so why not use it for something good.

I think the move to approve using "excess", "spare", "waste" human embyros to get stem cells is founded on the same low ground occupied by the man at Lily. We deep thinkers on this board may not be exactly expert on the stem cell subject anyway. I don't think there are too many among us who can make an argument that would convince me that embryo stem cells are better starter material than mature donor stem cells.

The new editor of the Irish Catholic made an excellent point last week when he asked [probably nowhere near what he actually wrote, but I think it conveys the idea]: If it's OK to kill human embryos to try to find a cure for what ails Grandpa, what if the products of embryonic stem cell research don't cure him? Can we just shoot him then to save lots of misery and expense?

GuanYin

Stem Cell research has already been set back years by irrational attitudes towards it.
I've heard many arguements some worthwhile but mostly crazy. Some parties go so far as to suggest crack addicts will get pregnant to sell for research.

The reality is, like most science research these days, everything will be very tightly regulated. There have already been some startling discoveries in animal models, espeically in nerve regeneration, which could have implications for victims of paralysis or spinal damage.

We then look at neurodegenerative disorders and you wonder how anyone who has ever actually had contact with a final stage alzheimers patient (and yes, initial sstem cell work years ago had implications on alzheimers treatment) could ever wonder about the morailities.

Any sources will be legitimate and while these lives (I'm not going to debate whether or not they are "alive or "people" as I don't believe its the issue) are unfortunately not to be, there are those whose lives can be saved or helped. Transplants became the norm in a time when the public were much less concerned with these moral issues, I'm sure if transplants were a technology discovered today, there would be similar uproar.

Sparks

Originally posted by TomF
Well, I remember being sickened by reading in a research news magazine years ago that E.I. Lily & Co., a big pharmaceutical company, was researching a cure for the common cold by doing tests on rhinoviruses grown in media that was based on nasal passages taken from freshly-aborted human fetuses. I carried on a brief letter exchange with the head of research at the company who immediately took the morally-expedient low ground by saying that the tissue was going to go to waste anyway, so why not use it for something good.

Good for you - I mean, the tissue was going to be incinerated anyway, so we shouldn't try to find a cure for influenza. I mean, it's not like the flu ever killed anyone, right? :rolleyes:
Morally-expedient. Hmph. I can't believe that we're even considering the morality proposed by an organisation that has sheltered child abusers, pushes propaganda against the use of condoms in africa, condemns family planning in places where there aren't enough resources to feed those already there, and whose actions in the past have been so heinous as to beggar the imagination.

The new editor of the Irish Catholic made an excellent point last week when he asked [probably nowhere near what he actually wrote, but I think it conveys the idea]: If it's OK to kill human embryos to try to find a cure for what ails Grandpa, what if the products of embryonic stem cell research don't cure him? Can we just shoot him then to save lots of misery and expense?

That is an excellent point?
Despite the fact that you don't kill embryos for this line of research because they're already dead before the tissue is harvested?
Despite the fact that it's making assumptions about the end result of the research that flies in the face of the fact that medical research has always advanced and that no research produces no results?

Sometimes I despair at the motives people use for these decisions
I mean, if we were talking about Mengeliean research, that'd be one thing - but we're not.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Sparks
Sometimes I despair at the motives people use for these decisions
I mean, if we were talking about Mengeliean research, that'd be one thing - but we're not.

Unfortunately empty vessels make the most sound.

bonkey

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
That's the norm! We object 'til we're hoarse but does it do any good

No - you object about the system till you're hoarse in the throat when you disagree with the decision. When the decision is ok, the same abuse of the process is silently accepted.

Thats the point I was making.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
Despite the fact that you don't kill embryos for this line of research because they're already dead before the tissue is harvested?

No, they're not. They are embryo's which will not be developed into fully fledged humans, but they are not dead. If they were, what use would the cells be?

Incidentally, would you also support the use of aborted foetuses, or even of ol' grandpa's cells once he's kicked the bucket - without the consent of some related family member? After all, you believe that its just dead cells, so why should their beliefs matter....right?

If thats not the case, then surely you must also agree that no embtyonic cells should be used in stem-cell research at least without the donor's consent....because its - once again - a question of their beliefs as to whether the cells they created and donated are life, and not yours.

jc

TomF

Possibly indicating how little I know of stem cell matters (but still remaining a threat to the likewise ignorant by being the father of a son who says he knows the score) I was interested to read an article published Wednesday. It at least suggests that we should keep the brakes on the money- and fame-crazed researchers out there who want to begin harvesting human embryos for their own profit, and who won't hesitate a moment before exploiting other people's troubles so to apply leverage for bypassing societal norms.

"TriStem [a small company in London] has been claiming for years that it can take a half a litre of anyone's blood, extract the white blood cells and make them revert to a "stem-cell-like" state within hours. The cells can be turned into beating heart cells for mending hearts, nerve cells for restoring brains and so on.

The company has now finally provided proof that at least some of its claims might be true. In collaboration with independent researchers in the US, the company has used its technique to turn white blood cells into the blood-generating stem cells found in bone marrow.

When injected into mice, these cells migrated to the bone marrow and generated nearly all the different types of human blood cells, the team will report in the January edition of Current Medical Research and Opinion (vol 20, p 87), a peer-reviewed journal."
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994418

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
No, they're not. They are embryo's which will not be developed into fully fledged humans, but they are not dead. If they were, what use would the cells be?

Actually I meant the tissue sourced from aborted fetuses, but that's my bad for not being clear. Yes, the cells in IVF embyros is still live - but to say that a clump of cells less than a fifth of a millimetre across, which has no differentiated cells at all, is alive in the sense we mean when we speak of a person, is just plain wrong. The cells in IVF embryos may be alive, but they will be incinerated after 14 days and will never see the inside of a womb, so they might as well be harvested. There's no human rights violation, there's no pain or loss inflicted.

Incidentally, would you also support the use of aborted foetuses, or even of ol' grandpa's cells once he's kicked the bucket - without the consent of some related family member? After all, you believe that its just dead cells, so why should their beliefs matter....right?

No I wouldn't, but that's not because of my thoughts on human rights - it's due to my thoughts on property rights. After all, they have to have my consent to take my organs - because I own them. Therefore the mother's consent would be needed for the use of aborted fetus tissue or IVF embryo tissue, and of "ol' grandpa" (and most certainly not his relatives) to use his tissue. As far as I'm concerned, this is morally equivalent to organ donation or blood/platelet/bone marrow donation.

Sparks

Originally posted by TomF
fame-crazed researchers out there who want to begin harvesting human embryos for their own profit, and who won't hesitate a moment before exploiting other people's troubles so to apply leverage for bypassing societal norms.

Really? Well, as a fame-crazed researcher (though not in the field of the biological sciences and thus not subject to formal ethics boards to the same extent), I would like to see the brakes put on the influence of the crazed religious freaks who would much rather subjecate the rest of us with some pie-in-the-sky notion that they have the answers to all life's questions "if we just have faith" and who bear personal responsibility, diluted as it may be, for the atrocities inflicted on the human race by their churches.

As far as I'm concerned, this science-versus-religion debate was won in the days of Ben Franklin by science with the invention of the lightning conductor. In those days, the church stated publicly that this new invention was unholy and shouldn't be trusted and the scientists that invented it were irredemable. Alas, no deity prevented lightning strike damage on church spires, but lightning conductors did. Science won. Religion was exposed as just a load of superstitious claptrap with a few robes. End of story.

The company has now finally provided proof that at least some of its claims might be true.

After several years. Which tells you why noone listened in the first place. Plus, it's a commercial process, meaning patents, meaning not in the public domain and thus not in the best interests of the human race as a whole.

In collaboration with independent researchers in the US, the company has used its technique to turn white blood cells into the blood-generating stem cells found in bone marrow.

Which are not undifferentiated stem cells as found in embryonic tissue.
So it's a useful step forward (assuming the patent situation is dealt with), but it doesn't provide what's being looked for.

Summary?
You cannot say "oh, this type of stem cell provides all you need to know" unless you allready know what it is you're trying to research, which by definition never happens - since research is concerned with what isn't yet known. Cutting off avenues of research for political or religious grounds does not do us any good at all.

wasabi

According to the Irish Times front page article today, the government are now supporting an amendment put forward by portugal effectively saying you can do research on stem cells that have already been taken and stored, but you can't use any new embryos.

Italy, Luxembourg, and Austria are already supporting this. So it looks like it might be a runner. Germany have similar legislation already.

Pity though, I really hate to see all this hysteria about tiny clumps of human cells that have absolutely no chance of life dominate rational analysis of this issue.

Especially since there isn't anything else useful you can do with your excess IVF embryos in Europe. I was reading recently about a couple in the UK who were trying to give theirs away for another couple to use and couldn't find a way to (which you can do in the US, there's an agency called Snowflakes that does IVF embryo adoption). So basically you'd think if politicians/people were that bothered there's be a European equivalent. It's only when someone finds something that might potentially do good to do with them that people throw a strop. Funny that.

Sparks

Ah, another wonderful victory for rationality :rolleyes:
<mutters very uncivil things>

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
What I find interesting is that not one person has indicated that they have a problem with a government (or a minister) having taken a unilateral decision on behalf of the entire nation apparently because you agree with the decision.

Didn't star gazer do that?