Voter Apathy

rmacm

I recently tured 18 and I can finally vote (I don't know wheather I should rejoice or despair). I do intend to vote in the local and european elections next year. I definately know who I will not be voting for, our current government if you can even call them that have ceased to amuse me with their witless and aimless and unimaginative effort so far. The other options don't inspire much confidence either. I was asked by a member of the PD's recently to join up, I politely declined her offer. She told me if I didn't like the current system I should join up and change it. She aslo claimed that Finna Fail listened to the PD's and that they were supposedly a sensible party. So why did the PD's allow the LUAS system to go ahead. It would have made more sense to scrap it and go and build a metro system. In my opinion it's the truly profound idiocy that is endemic in our political system that is causing voter apathy (it certainly is beginning to cause it in me). It seems ridicilous to me that if something needs to be done e.g. renovate primary schools around the country that the goverment can't just go and do the bloody job. The DOE certainly has enough money even in these days of scarcity to renovate many schools. Their budget must be nigh on 7 billion euro if not more at this stage. Where does it all go. Surely with that amount of money they can juggle about and find enough to the job. Instead they go out and hire consultants to tell us that loads of our primary schools are falling apart (no **** sherlock we really needed a consultnts report to tell us that). Well thats just my rant on voter apathy. Anybody else have any views on this??

Sarky

Nyeh.

star gazer

If you think in a certain way and there is a candidate/party that comes close to what you want, then vote for them and hope that there are enough like-minded people out there that will also vote that way. If there is no one, see if there are like-mnded people out there and then if one of them will go ahead or if you will go ahead and run in an election.
There isn't much point in joining a party that you disagree with a lot in order to change it from the inside, there would betoo much resistance to you to make it change.
Voter apathy is a problem in most democracies, it is a worrying trend for the health of democracy and ireland is no different. If you don't vote then someone else decides for you.

LFCFan

Voter Apathy is the reason FF and PD's are in government again. The people who do vote are the people who always vote and unfortunatly too many people don't have minds of their own when it comes to voting so just vote how their parents voted. If there was a 100% turnout of voters FF wouldn't stand a chance and would probably end up the 3rd Party after Fine Gael and Labour. Unfortunatly the opposition parties are too bloody quiet. People don't know what the alternative is.

Netnut

I agree with rmacm i also feel disillusioned with most partys but what makes it more frustrating is that when i try to find out information about a particular TD on how they stand on a range of issues i cant find out anything Has anyone got a link to a site detailing TDs stances and past accomplishments particularly for north Dublin ?

miju

Just outta curiousity how many people HONESTLY voted for FF in the last election?

Éomer of Rohan

North Dublin - vote Clare Daly SP!

Link to limited biography on Clare Daly

SP Manifesto

star gazer

...don't be slipping off topic.

Voter apathy can be enhanced though with strong debate on issues and getting people involved. It would be better though if the activities weren't illeagal. People need a strong opposition to show to them that they are not being ignored by the political system and that they do have a voice. If Labour and Fine Gael don't prove that then we will get more extremists that want to tax everybody more.

Victor

Part of the problem is people fail to inform themselves - you included.

Originally posted by rmacm
I do intend to vote in the local and european elections next year.

There is also likely to be a presidential election in November.

Originally posted by rmacm
She told me if I didn't like the current system I should join up and change it.

Do! Whether you join the South Kerry Independent Alliance or the White Rastafarians for the Decriminalisation of Ganga Movement, do something. Don't get angry, get elected (OK you can't get elected until 21, but you understand the point).

Originally posted by rmacm
She aslo claimed that Finna Fail listened to the PD's and that they were supposedly a sensible party.

Every party claims to be "a sensible party.", well except maybe the Monster Raving Loony Party.

Originally posted by rmacm
So why did the PD's allow the LUAS system to go ahead.

Because it's a start. Remember it has been supported by FF, FG, Labour, PDs DL and independents. Don’t single out one party to blame.

Originally posted by rmacm
It would have made more sense to scrap it and go and build a metro system.

Hindsight is wonderful and while the plans were initially under-ambitious and then under-implemented (the airport line is at least 3 years behind schedule), the economy has done way better than anyone expected.

Originally posted by rmacm
In my opinion it's the truly profound idiocy that is endemic in our political system that is causing voter apathy (it certainly is beginning to cause it in me).

That and short-sighted mé-féinism.

Originally posted by rmacm
It seems ridicilous to me that if something needs to be done e.g. renovate primary schools around the country that the goverment can't just go and do the bloody job.

Guess what - the government owns perhaps a half dozen (the model schools) of something like 4,000 schools in the country. If people are whinging that the roof is leaking and the ceiling is collapsing, why didn't the do something 15 years ago? Quite simply, because people find it easier to point fingers than solve problems. Your Mammy and Daddy (nothing personal, I don’t know your circumstances) were more interested in tax cuts and living in the suburbs than maintaining schools.

Originally posted by rmacm
The DOE certainly has enough money even in these days of scarcity to renovate many schools. Their budget must be nigh on 7 billion euro if not more at this stage.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1206&CatID=13&m=f&StartDate=1+January+2003&m=f

Vote 26 page 54 - of €6.3bn - €370m is being spent on capital projects. The argument is do you renovate a miserable two class school in the middle of nowhere or build a new school where there is urgent demand for one.

Originally posted by rmacm
Where does it all go.

You can see it in the link above. Of €6.3bn, €4.4bn goes on pay.

Originally posted by rmacm
Surely with that amount of money they can juggle about and find enough to the job.

So what do you want to cut?

Originally posted by rmacm
Instead they go out and hire consultants to tell us that loads of our primary schools are falling apart (no **** sherlock we really needed a consultnts report to tell us that).

But you do need consultants to tell you (a) which particular schools need the priority money and (b) how that money is to be spent. The alternative is having all those consultants employed full time by the government.

Originally posted by star gazer
Voter apathy can be enhanced though with strong debate on issues and getting people involved.

Surely the other way around or are you saying the voters can't handle an informed debate.

Originally posted by star gazer
It would be better though if the activities weren't illeagal.

??????

star gazer

originally posted by Victor
Surely the other way around or are you saying the voters can't handle an informed debate.

oh my mixed up my mind yes, i mean the other way around.

??????

the bin protests may have engaged people in 'political' campaigning, but part of that campaign was deemed to be against the law.

Part of the problem is people fail to inform themselves - you included.

maybe so but some of what they will find out if they do go looking will infuriate and turn them off politics eg election promises, health reform promises, the quality of ninety percent of Dail debates, the tribunals

Victor

Originally posted by star gazer
the bin protests may have engaged people in 'political' campaigning, but part of that campaign was deemed to be against the law.

The thing here was a small minority decided to engage in not only civil disobedience, but also contempt of court (breaking the high court injunctions). They are whinging because the majority went against them in a democratic vote.

Éomer of Rohan

Well, I am just back from voting, first time and all that. It was interesting and very very short!

LFCFan

Originally posted by Victor
So what do you want to cut?

Are you taking the p!ss? €15 on Punchestown for a start could have been used where it was needed. What about all the tax breaks for the Horsey crowd? They certainly don't need more money that they alredy have. What about €500,000 on a new fleet of cars? Pensions for the likes of Redmond who are criminals. Round the clock Garda protection for all ex leaders. €5,000,000 for a huge mettle spike that doesn't even work the way it was supposed to. Going over budget in nearly every capital project started. Tax breaks for all the rich, including the celebrities. They are making millions but get to pay feck all if any tax. Where's the sense in this? Who gives a toss if half of them leave because they have to pay tax. They're only people who are living off the money given to them by their fans. There are probably hundreds more examples like these of places that money can be found. FF are in it for themselves, pure and simple.

spanner

Originally posted by LFCFan
Are you taking the p!ss? €15 on Punchestown for a start could have been used where it was needed. What about all the tax breaks for the Horsey crowd? They certainly don't need more money that they alredy have. What about €500,000 on a new fleet of cars? Pensions for the likes of Redmond who are criminals. Round the clock Garda protection for all ex leaders. €5,000,000 for a huge mettle spike that doesn't even work the way it was supposed to. Going over budget in nearly every capital project started. Tax breaks for all the rich, including the celebrities. They are making millions but get to pay feck all if any tax. Where's the sense in this? Who gives a toss if half of them leave because they have to pay tax. They're only people who are living off the money given to them by their fans. There are probably hundreds more examples like these of places that money can be found. FF are in it for themselves, pure and simple.

here here
We are told that there isnt enough money there to have a decent health service or enough money for education. well then its common sense to say that we just cant afford things like tax breaks to the film industry, horse racing and other silly tax breaks. i know it has been a great selling point to industries coming to ireland but we can not keep this low coporation tax ethier. the PAYE worker has shouldered the tax brunt for two long and got very little back for it.

i dont follow a paticular party but i think we need to get this government out of power, its grown complcient and thinks it can do what it likes.

star gazer

originally posted by LFCfan
Round the clock Garda protection for all ex leaders.

that might save a million or two but if someone wanted to make a statement on something, going after an ex-taoiseach would be a big puiblicity maker. Putting round the clock coverage on them may not save them from every possible attacker, but it is an extra barrier to attempting something.

Tax breaks for all the rich, including the celebrities. They are making millions but get to pay feck all if any tax. Where's the sense in this? Who gives a toss if half of them leave because they have to pay tax. They're only people who are living off the money given to them by their fans. There are probably hundreds more examples like these of places that money can be found.

not as simple as that, if you fully tax them they'll move off-shore, there has to be some carrot and stick approach to squeeze a little extra out of them.
penalise people for earning their living here but not paying tax here. Also giving some tax breaks for investing in irish companies or some such thing.

FF are in it for themselves, pure and simple.

well they are going to have to prove that they aren't if voter apathy is going to be improved enough to stop the decline in voter turnout.

LFCFan

Originally posted by star gazer
that might save a million or two but if someone wanted to make a statement on something, going after an ex-taoiseach would be a big puiblicity maker. Putting round the clock coverage on them may not save them from every possible attacker, but it is an extra barrier to attempting something.

Gareth Fitzgerald has given up the use of these 'bodygaurds' and nobody has tried to kill him. He realises it's a stupid perk.

not as simple as that, if you fully tax them they'll move off-shore, there has to be some carrot and stick approach to squeeze a little extra out of them.
penalise people for earning their living here but not paying tax here. Also giving some tax breaks for investing in irish companies or some such thing.

I'm talking about the Rich Celbrities who are getting tax breaks. What do they contribute to Ireland? They're not paying tax as it is so what difference will it make if they leave the country? Some tax incentives are a good thing though. The film industry one for example is good. It results in more work for the not so rich actors and all the people who work on movies who do pay tax. It enhances the countries reputation too which is good for tourism but it's also the one tax incentive the government were gonna do away with. The one incentive that actually makes sense and the Government in all their wisdom would have axed if there hadn't been outrage about it. What about all the tax incentives for the Horsey elite and their studs? These people are all mega rich and then have the ability to pay less tax then the ordinary worker who struggles on a low income.

well they are going to have to prove that they aren't if voter apathy is going to be improved enough to stop the decline in voter turnout.

FF will prove nothing more than they are a bunch of money grabbing muppets who have no business running a country.

Victor

Originally posted by LFCFan
Are you taking the p!ss? €15 on Punchestown for a start could have been used where it was needed. What about all the tax breaks for the Horsey crowd? They certainly don't need more money that they alredy have. What about €500,000 on a new fleet of cars? Pensions for the likes of Redmond who are criminals. Round the clock Garda protection for all ex leaders. €5,000,000 for a huge mettle spike that doesn't even work the way it was supposed to. Going over budget in nearly every capital project started.

Money all spent. Any new ideas?

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
Money all spent. Any new ideas?

Cancel the contract for the new government jet and require all ministers to use Aer Lingus or other civilian airliners instead.

Cease annual refurbishment of TD's offices.

Reduce TD's salaries.

Eliminate TD's "severance pay" payments.

And those are just the easy options...

LFCFan

is there any way to get access to the government accounts to see what is really being spent? I bet if the government really wanted to they could find the money for all the stuff we really need. So much money is wasted on stupid schemes and consultations, and reports and tax breaks that are unwarranted etc etc etc. Do the government accounts get audited by the EU?

Victor

Originally posted by LFCFan
is there any way to get access to the government accounts to see what is really being spent?

See link above.

Originally posted by LFCFan
Do the government accounts get audited by the EU?

Only EU money that the government disburses. The rest is under the aegis of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Victor
The rest is under the aegis of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

And who employs these people? Who pays their wages?

sovtek

Originally posted by Victor
Money all spent. Any new ideas?

Find the people that designed/run efficient and relatively inexpensive transport, health, waste collection, city planning, roads...etc etc (from places like Germany) and hire them, getting rid of the imcompetent ones here.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Victor
See link above.

I've had a look at the accounts but they are very general. It says how much each department gets but not how they spent it.

spanner

Originally posted by sovtek
Find the people that designed/run efficient and relatively inexpensive transport, health, waste collection, city planning, roads...etc etc (from places like Germany) and hire them, getting rid of the imcompetent ones here.

thats a very good idea. if the country was a company and the company had incompetant staff or even just staff that cannot meet the grade then you sack them and headhunt the people who can do the job much better. yes that might seem like you would have to pay more money to headhunt new personal but if we then have a better run economy then it will be worth it in the end.

another thing that seems to be a stupid thing to do was the SSIA scheme. for a country that has experience good growth in the last 10 years you would think that our situation would be better.

star gazer

originally posted by LFCFan
And who employs these people? Who pays their wages?

In fairness this is the organisation that highlighted the punchestown gig, the €20million on refugee accomadation that never got occupied, the waiting list initiative that had sent a lot of money on staff instead of the waiting list. they are an independent watch dog on public spending.

originally posted by spanner
thats a very good idea. if the country was a company and the company had incompetant staff or even just staff that cannot meet the grade then you sack them and headhunt the people who can do the job much better. yes that might seem like you would have to pay more money to headhunt new personal but if we then have a better run economy then it will be worth it in the end.

maybe we can't en mass transport a bunch of spaniards or germans over here for public infrastructural projects, but we could look at the way they do things and the structures that were put in place to meet the challenges. One of the things we in ireland seem to be poor at is learning from other people's pmistakes, we are not the first country to come by wealth. We have our own distinct problmes but not everything is to do with our irishness.

LFCFan

Originally posted by spanner
thats a very good idea. if the country was a company and the company had incompetant staff or even just staff that cannot meet the grade then you sack them and headhunt the people who can do the job much better. yes that might seem like you would have to pay more money to headhunt new personal but if we then have a better run economy then it will be worth it in the end.

another thing that seems to be a stupid thing to do was the SSIA scheme. for a country that has experience good growth in the last 10 years you would think that our situation would be better.

People of course will moan and give out about foreign companies coming in to do the roads etc but we need to start being more efficient. If Irish companies aren't up for the job then hire foreign ones. I know for a fact that Dublin CC turned down the opportunity to use a technology that makes it easier to fill pot holes and and would have saved them a fortune in the long run, aswell as making the roads a lot safer. Instead they spend huge amounts of money on council working just filling them with crap that only lasts a week. It's like they need to spend stupid money so they can justify their budgets and get the same every year.

The SSIA was a life saver for me 'cause it meant I could get a deposit for my house but I can see why people are pissed off with it.

spanner

Originally posted by LFCFan
People of course will moan and give out about foreign companies coming in to do the roads etc but we need to start being more efficient. If Irish companies aren't up for the job then hire foreign ones.

exactly, if we are really serious about saving money and been efficent with our money hard decisions will have to be made. common sense is the main word for it.

Originally posted by LFCFan

The SSIA was a life saver for me 'cause it meant I could get a deposit for my house but I can see why people are pissed off with it.

i am in it as well, my parnets say they will pay for it so that i would have a cash sum in a few years instead of me asking them for help with a deposit for a house

rmacm

Originally posted by Victor
So what do you want to cut?

As has been suggested already:
Annual refurbishments of TD's offices.
Annual replacements of cars (those merks are good for a couple of hundred thousand miles) instead of the current replacement of cars after 100000 miles.

In relation to your point on the luas system, I agree that hindsight is indeed wonderful but it shouldn't have been allowed to go ahead by the current & previous incarnation of this government. The plans and concept were clearly out of date (at least to me anyway).

Originally posted by Victor
But you do need consultants to tell you (a) which particular schools need the priority money and (b) how that money is to be spent. The alternative is having all those consultants employed full time by the government.

Thats true but if thats what these consultants are telling the government why can't they go and implement the reports and fix the problem. Maybe it's just my mentality but if something needs to be done I go and do and it. Are the government unwilling/unable to this.

Originally posted by Victor
Guess what - the government owns perhaps a half dozen (the model schools) of something like 4,000 schools in the country. If people are whinging that the roof is leaking and the ceiling is collapsing, why didn't the do something 15 years ago? Quite simply, because people find it easier to point fingers than solve problems. Your Mammy and Daddy (nothing personal, I don’t know your circumstances) were more interested in tax cuts and living in the suburbs than maintaining schools.

I would agree with you to an extent. 15 years ago the country was still in a recession and there was still no money to fix schools. I don't think that the government owning only half a dozen of the schools excuses them. Many of these schools are in breach of health and safety regulations. If TD's were forced to work in such conditions they wouldn't be long kicking up a ruckus. It shouldn't be parents responsibilty to maintain schools and in my experience most parent are willing to help with fundraising.