are there laws to prevent serious overwork?

vibe666

here's the deal.

someone I know is in a senior management position managing approx. 200 people AND an annual budget of over 10 million yoyo's.

thing is her boss (and his boss) have been steadily increasing the workload over the last 6 months to the point where she is doing a minimum 70 hours a week and recently 80-90 hours (seriously) and this week is looking like it's set to beat even that, as she's working through the night now and and will be in right through the weekend.

I keep telling her that they can't do this to her and she should see if she can do something about it, but she says that her contract means she has to meet certain goals no matter how long it takes and has no option if she wants to keep the job.

i thought that if a contract or wokring conditions were deemed unreasonable they could not be enforced, but she's convinced she doesn't have a choice.

now i'm very seriously concerned that before very long she's just going to have a complete mental breakdown, and having seen my mum do the same thing when i was a lad, i know how much damage that can do.

she's on about 40k, but considering the hours shes working she might as well be in a chipper.

the reason her work load is so high is because her assistants have left (due to overwork) and they just dumped their work on her instead of getting more staff.

her direct boss is a complete cvnt (and the special kind too, not the ordinary garden veriety) and was previously in her role before he was promoted and when that happened she moved into his old role, and was supposed to be trained in the things she didn't know by him. thing is, given the type of person he is (see above) he has done nothing (zero, ziltch, not a god damned thing) to train her up and she's had to learn it all herself while trying to juggle her old job and her 2 assistants stuff.

can anything be done for her? are her employers breaking the law by forcing such a high work load on her? what can she do to fix this without losing her job (aside from getting a new one)?

help. please.

dub45

The Organisation of Working time Act 1997(http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA20Y1997.html covers many of the issues that you raise here. Less legalistic version here [http://www.cidb.ie/Live.nsf/0/a9fc62cc911d12e180256626002ff1e0?OpenDocument [/URL]

In summary employees are restricted by law to working an average of 48 hours per week - this can be averaged over a period of up three months - so say you work 60 hours one week, 37 the next and so on provided that over the period you averaged a maximum of 48 hours weekly.

Daily rest
There is also a provision that employees are entitled to daily rest periods of 11 hours - again this can be averaged over a week. This means that 11 hours should elapse between the time you leave work and the time you resume next morning
.
Weekly rest
You are entitled to a weekly rest of 35 hours (this is a combination of the daily rest of 11 hours and a day off of 24) this period of 35 hours rest should be continuous.

Breaks
You are also entitled to a 15 min break after working 4.5 hours in the day or 30 mins after 6 hours (the 30 mins includes the 15mins if the person is working 6 or more)

the Act also covers issues like annual holidays.

If you need any other information you are welcome to drop me an email (Dubliner46@hotmail.com)

There are a number of other issues here though. The OWTA is regarded as part of the Health and Safety legislation and the employees’ health is this case is obviously at risk because of the unsustainable hours being workd. In England anyways some people in senior positions have successfully sued their companies in cases where their health suffered because of stress, so for this reason alone (apart altogether from treating their employees properly) it really does behove companies to ensure that their employees work proper and safe hours.

I should mention that the OWTA does provide for emergency situations where employees might have to work exceptional hours but these would only be in the case of serious emergencies and in all cases the employee is entitled to compensatory rest as a matter of course.(note compensatory in this sense does not refer to money)

The employer is also required to record the hours of work of each employee and your friend should make sure that she has a record of the hours she is working in case of any future complaint she may make.

From what you say the issue of a complaint of bullying and harassment might also arise if the person concerned feels they are being intimidated into such hours.

I have to say though that the person concerned has to face up to the fact that they are working in conditions which are unsustainable and they will either have to assert themselves or leave. Otherwise their health is going to suffer. All the legislation in world will not help if the person does not stand up for themselves.

The stuff about the contract is nonsense by the way no contract could specify that you have to complete such and such irrespective of how long you work.

The company itself does not sound as if it is concerned with best practise HR if it is allowing these sort of conditions to persist over a long period and she really will have to ask herself does she want to stay in such conditions. ( I know its easy for me to say that)

Quatre Mains

Originally posted by dub45
I have to say though that the person concerned has to face up to the fact that they are working in conditions which are unsustainable and they will either have to assert themselves or leave. Otherwise their health is going to suffer. All the legislation in world will not help if the person does not stand up for themselves.

- I totally agree. I was in a sort-of similar position myself years ago but luckily escaped as I got a call back from someone I had sent a CV a year previously. Bully bosses favourite tactic is to make you feel that you're the central driving force behind whatever it is your company does, and that success or failure depends on you.
The best piece of advice I ever got around being overworked was from a colleague who said "ask yourself what would happen the company if you died in a car crash tonight? Answer = nothing. you would be replaced, and everything would carry on as before."

I'm sure this person would be much better appreciated in another job, she most likely has a great workrate(is that the right term?)from being treated like a slave, which would shine through.She'll also find normal working hours a piece of piss and will be
before too long. Give her a year and she'll be a net slob like us normal worker ants!

Neil

vibe666

here's a little addition to the saga.

she has so much to do for Monday (which has been repeatedly messed about with by her boss, so she now has to redo a lot of the work) that she has been at work right through the night, slept for one hour while she was there and is still there now and doesn't think she'll be getting home till late tonight (defo, not before 10pm).

I'm getting really concerned about her, and am starting to get desperate to try and help her out in some way or at least let her know that they cannot force her to do what they are currently doing, and it is illegal.

she's still convinced though that she'll get the sack if it's not all done by monday morning, as she has the single most important meeting of the year happening, and everyone is looking to her to be the money maker.

she's convinced that due to her senior position that the laws about working practices do not extend to her and really feels that she has no choice at all. that if she doesn't do it she'll never be able to work in her field in dublin (maybe even ireland) again, because the people above her are very much a big part of the governing body that runs her industry.

she called me late last night for a bit of support and was sobbing her heart out on the phone because she didn't know how she was going to keep going long enough to get it all done.

there has to be something i can do. :mad:

dub45

Look the simple fact is that if the girl is in such a state no matter how much of a genius she is the work she produces will likely be crap. You cannot work well when you are in a stressed state. And if her output is crap she is going to be blamed by the boss anyways.

and if the Company cannot see what is going on that they are not worth working for in fact they are dangerous to work for.

She should go to the Doctor and get a medical cert ( I could be umsymaptheric and say she really does need her head examined for wantint to stay in such a situation).

In summary the girl is headed for a physical/nervous breakdown.
Is 4ok a year worh that.

She needs to clarify a lot of her own thinking about what she wants to do etc now is not a great time for that but she needs to urgently. All that talk about not being able to get another job and so on is crap.

She is working for a **** company and if the company continues like this it wont be around very long either.

What does it say about a company if this is the way they prepare for the single most important meeting of they year in this way.

Tell her to get out of there quickly either on a sick cert or for good.

The OWTA does exclude certain mangerment types from its provisions but as this provision has not been tested as far as I know its not clear what they mean by it but I very much doubt if someone on 40 k a year is the type of person the Act has in mind and in any even irrespective of the OWTA the Company would be considered to have a duty of care to all of its employees irrespeictve of their grading or level.

You know sometimes when a person gets intosuch a stressful state they dont want to be removed from it in one sense you certainly need to talk to her and try and get her to realise the amunt of stress she s under and to do something about it for herself = she has to do it no one can do it for her.

vibe666

Originally posted by dub45
She is working for a **** company and if the company continues like this it wont be around very long either.

if only that were true. if you only knew who it was, you'd know they aren't going to go anywhere and have seen more like her come and go than you could count.

they have offices worldwide and are a household name here in Ireland. they aren't going anywhere, and have pretty much got away with murder in the past, (due to negligence) so I really don't know what she could do.

i really want (need) to help her, but I honestly don't know how i can.

i'd say more, but i don't want any of this to get back to her or any of her collegues in case I do more harm than good.

i just don't know what to do to help her.

dub45

i just don't know what to do to help her

I am afraid that she can only help herself and the sooner both of you realise that the better. I know its not easy to see a friend suffer but you cannot take responsibility for her. She is a grown adult and must face up to the situation she is in.

I realise she has 40,000 good reasons at the moment for staying around but sooner or later her health will go and then they will get rid of her on medical grounds and by that time she may be no good to anyone depending on her mental health.

She is working for a company that appears not to care too much about its employees and as I said in a previous post if she is exhausted she will produce crap work and they will get rid of her for that reason

It seems to me that she has little choice but to go to a doctor as soon as possible and get a medical cert she is in urgent need of a rest and break in the cycle of stress. She then has to start looking around for another job.

I suppose one way you could help her is try to ask her want she wants out of life and why she is prepared at the moment to put up with this sort of stuff? You also have got to get across to her the value on one'e health once that goes you are in big trouble.

And as one of the other posts also mentions we are all easily replaced no matter how vital we may seem. If she was knocked down on the way home from work tonight or whenever they would manage.

The beginning of wisdom is realising that we are all like buckets of water that can be taken out of the ocean and our absence not even noticed.

Apologies for my dreadful spelling in the earlier post but I was in a hurry when writing it.

vibe666

thanks for the advise. i kinda knew all that anyway, but it's nice sometimes to hear your thoughts echo'd by someone else.

thanks again.

maybe i should get her top read all this. it might help hearing it (kinda) from someone else.

seamus

It all depends on the contract. In effect, if an employee signs a contract saying "I will work every hour god gives me, regardless of how unreasonable it is, and for any length of time" then he's stuck.

But there are some interesting bits:

from http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/employment_rights/hours_breaks_sundays.html

For many employees the maximum average working week cannot exceed 48 hours. This does not mean that a working week can never exceed 48 hours, it is the average that is important.

The average may be calculated in one of the following ways:

• over 4 months, most employees
• over 6 months for employees such as those working in the security industry, hospitals, prisons, gas/electricity, airport/docks, agriculture and employees in businesses which have peak periods at certain times of the year such as tourism.
• over 12 month where there has been an agreement between the employer and the employees to this effect.

So unless she signed a contract saying otherwise, she is not obliged to work more than 48 hours average per week over 4 months. So, say after 3 months, she's worked a total of 768 hours (16 weeks * 48 hours), she's legally not obliged to work any more hours for the next month. That's my interpretation of it.
Also important is:

You are entitled to 11 consecutive hours rest in any period of 24 hours. In addition you should get 24 consecutive hours rest in any period of 7 days and this should normally follow on from one of the 11 hour rest periods already mentioned. As an alternative your employer can give you 2 X 24 hour rest periods in the week that follows one in which you did not get this entitlement.

If she is working til 1am, and then coming into work again at 9am, and working till 1am again, her employer is breaking the law. Additionally, if she's worked every day this week (Mon-Sat incl), she's allowed to at least Sunday off, or two days off next week.

At 40k, she is a loooong way off being too important to the company. 40k is buttons, she's nowhere near the top of the ladder. The only reason she has all this work is because she doesn't put her foot down and demand help or a break, so her boss is heppy to keep giving it to her. If she demands help and a break, they'll be given to her. If not, she can sue for unfair dismissal or constructive dismissal, or any of a range of medical or psychological issues (eventually).

dub45

thanks for the advise. i kinda knew all that anyway, but it's nice sometimes to hear your thoughts echo'd by someone else.

You are more than welcome - this might be a good time (well when she gets some rest:) for your friend to sit down with someone and have a good long talk and think about where shes going, what's important to her and what she wants to do career wise. but the essential thing at the moment is to make sure she stays ok and that her health does not suffer any damage.

It all depends on the contract. In effect, if an employee signs a contract saying "I will work every hour god gives me, regardless of how unreasonable it is, and for any length of time" then he's stuck

No he's not because no employee can contract themselves outside the law. Such a contract would simply not be lawful.

So unless she signed a contract saying otherwise, she is not obliged to work more than 48 hours average per week over 4 months.

You have to be careful of the word oblige there - for most employees the 48 hours would be taken to cover a basis work week and some overtime. In the present case I presume the girl would have a basic hours contract say 37.5 - 40 or something like that and as a 'manager' would be expected to work some 'unpaid' overtime.

However its very important to note that the OWTA does not distinguish between paid hours and unpaid hours when counting the 'working time' involved. and the restriction on the average maxiumum average permitted hours ie 48 would include any unpaid hours she works. By the way the maximum of 48 also refers to any other jobs a person may have and the primary employer is required to take those hours into account when measuring the working week the employee is putting in.

You are right when you say that an employee who has worked more than the average permitted hours should strictly speaking not be allowed work for the balance of the reference (or averaging) period.

It is also important as I mentioned earlier to remember that the OWTA is regarded as health and safety legislation so that should indicate its broad intent.

Our man in Havana

Contact the labour inspectorate. They are responsible for enforcement of the OWTA. email inspectorate@entemp.ie

vibe666

I've been speaking to her about all this and showed her the stuff you've posted about the OWTA and she's told me that when she signed her contract, she also signed something that means she is exempt from the EU working time directive and that she will carry out any duties required no matter how long they take.

she also mentioned that as there is no roster there is no way of actually saying the hours that she is doing are official working hours, and that as part of her job she has agreed to having certain amount to do in the week that has to be done as part of her normal day and that the extra stuff she is doing at the moment is in addition to her normal day to day duties because of her managerial position.

I dunno, but she's back there again and doesn't think she'll be home before 10 or 11 tonight.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by vibe666
I've been speaking to her about all this and showed her the stuff you've posted about the OWTA and she's told me that when she signed her contract, she also signed something that means she is exempt from the EU working time directive and that she will carry out any duties required no matter how long they take.

she also mentioned that as there is no roster there is no way of actually saying the hours that she is doing are official working hours, and that as part of her job she has agreed to having certain amount to do in the week that has to be done as part of her normal day and that the extra stuff she is doing at the moment is in addition to her normal day to day duties because of her managerial position.

I dunno, but she's back there again and doesn't think she'll be home before 10 or 11 tonight.

As explained earlier you cannot have a contract that breaks the law or implies you do not have rights under law. Such terms would void a contract and in default the law of the land applies.

The employer still has to record keep and maintain a record of the hours worked whether or not there is a roster.

Have you seen the contract? Get her to get a copy which she is entited to and ask a good employment solicitor for his/her opinion.

BTW she can complain to the labour inspectorate in a manner so that the employer wont know who complained.

Hope this makes sense.

dub45

Although I am not sure of this as I have no experience of it I would imagine that the labour inspectorate route may be a little slow in relation to the needs of this person. They might act a little more quickly if there was a group involved - I am just concerned that they might see it as a dispute between an individual and an employer but a call to the Dept of Enterprise could be useful to allay my concerns. http://www.entemp.ie/erir/labourinspect-role.htm

Yet again I have to say that it goes back to the person making a stand for herself that has to be the first step.

And in any even what does it say of an employer that would produce a contract like that? To be honest it also raises questions about a person who would sign a contract like. The person is obviously pretty intelligent and really should have recognised that a contract like that was far far too encompassing even if they were not familiar with employment legislation.

Anyways for the moment that's beside the point unless she is prepeared to do something pretty quickly her health both physical and mental is going to suffer - is anything worth that?

vibe666

Originally posted by dub45
And in any even what does it say of an employer that would produce a contract like that? To be honest it also raises questions about a person who would sign a contract like.

unfortunately, the contract is a standard one for anyone in junior management and above in her industry. it's a standard form that anyone taking on a role would have to sign. she's worked both here and in the UK in management positions and it's been the same in all of them.

dub45

Still does not make it legal! Have you convinced her to do something about all this yet?

vibe666

spoken to her again today and she's in work again since first thing this morning.

hopefully it'll all be behind her by the end of tomorrow, but i guess we'll have to see.

Gav_b

Vib666,
I highly recommend buying her a copy of Charles Handys "The Hungry Spirit: A Quest for Purpose in the Modern World".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767901886/qid=1068516740/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-4052610-1892729

vibe666

all over and done with now anyway.

as it turned out the prep work she spent all her time doing was so good they never even asked her to speak at the big meeting, and in the end the boss took her and the rest of the people involved (not a single one of them did the hours she did btw) out for dinner to celebrate.

suppose it'll have to wait till next time.

dub45

Its up to her now! does she want to go through all that crap again? Maybe she does! But its only a matter of time until the next time....

the_syco

I'll give her now more than 2 more months before yer mate burns!

She'll work very hard, and then;
a) go mental
b) nervous breakdown
c) run away
d) all above

If she keeps working, she'll only doom herself. As for the multinational company making her sign something that makes her exempt from the laws of the EU bit, she should talk to a lawyer.
There's nothing they can do like that, ESP. cos she's ONLY a contractor!!!

pebble

Is your friend contracted to do work, or is she permenant.

If she is contracted to fullfil certain taks, and she has agreed to these tasks, then she is up a creek.
As far as I know, if she contracts herself out and agrees to all the work then she only has herself to blame, and if the work is not completed when she says it should be, she could be in trouble with breaking contract and not getting paid.
She will have to be involved in the set up of and change of acontracts, so I assume that she knows how much work is involved.
To put it straight, if she is indeed contracting (and I only say this because you say 'her contract means she has to meet certain goals no matter how long it takes and has no option') she only has herself to blame. It could simply be a matter that she cannot prioritise her workload properly. Don't always assume that your friend gets the thin edge of the wedge. There will always be circumstances that you dont't know about until you are the one in the position

However, if she is not contracting, and she is a permanent employee, then she can simply say no to that much work.
And she can take that to a tribunal.

By the way, I see a lot of people on this forum bitching off about their boss and how much of a waste of space they are etc etc.
just remember, someday you hope to be in that position. Being a manager is not easy. Being a good manager is even harder. In this instance, you say that the manager used to do your friends work. What makes you think that the manager has had the training to do his current job? Also, since you don't even know this boss of hers, I think you are just passing on her sentiments. Always dangerous. You can't be subjective in this case.


And as Seamus said, 40k is buttons. I wouldnt get out of bed for 50k, let alone stay in work until 1am for it!

vibe666

she's not a contrator, it's a permanent role and the thing about her boss being a manager is kind of moot, as she's a senoir manager anyway. her boss is the assistant GM, and although I don't know him personally, I know several people from her work and he is universally despised within the company.

dub45

No matter what has been is said here or will be said here its up to her take things in hand - nobody else can do anything for her!

In summary she now knows the contract she has signed is illegal (based on the information given to us anyways)

That the hours she has been working break the law (OWTA) (again based on the information available)

That the hours she has been working are unsustainable.

That her health is threatened by the present situation.

That for all of the above reasons and probably more the Company she is employed by is not a good company to work for.

that her boss is most unlikey to have a personality change anytime soon and become Mr. Reasonable.

What will it take for her to realise this?


Now the neutral here would have to say that if she does not realise that this situation is bad then she really has problem herself irrespective of the job and definitely nees some sort of help/counselling.