[Article] Dublin commuting costs three times as high as other cities

Floater

European study finds travel is costly in sprawling Dublin
Frank McDonald, Environment Editor

Irish Times - The cost of travel is nearly three times higher in sprawling urban areas such as Dublin than in more compact cities in Europe, according to new research.

It found that the cost to the community of urban journeys amounted to 15 per cent of GDP in cities where the car dominated, whereas it was only 6 per cent in more compact cities where greater use was made of public transport, walking and cycling.

The research, presented yesterday to Tapestry (Travel Awareness Publicity and Education), an international sustainable transport workshop hosted by Dublin Bus, also found that the average car spent 95 per cent of its life parked, taking up valuable space in urban areas.

Other findings were that road accidents were the primary cause of death among younger people in the 15-30 age group and that they accounted for as much as 40 per cent of all accidental deaths throughout Europe, amounting to 42,000 a year.

The research attributed about 80,000 deaths in Europe a year to long-term exposure to traffic- related air pollution. It also underlined that public transport was 10 times cleaner than private cars in terms of emissions and five to 10 times safer.

It found that public transport consumed three to five times less energy for each passenger carried, that buses caused 11 times less noise than cars, while trams were 46 times less noisy.

However, 80 per cent of all personal journeys in Europe were made by car.

"If we are to adhere to the commitments made in Kyoto," the workshop was told, "a reduction in energy consumption during urban journeys is necessary.

This can only be achieved by increasing public transport's market share at the expense of the car."

The workshop was the final stage of a three-year project which looked at ways to communicate, advertise and market sustainable transport messages. It centred on 18 local campaigns across Europe, including Belgium, Britain, France, Italy and Sweden, as well as Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Projects included promoting cycling and walking to school and improving the image of public transport.

"This project has proved to be hugely successful with modal shift from the private car to public transport or walking and cycling experienced in all the participating countries projects, including Ireland," a spokeswoman said yesterday.

Floater

sligoliner

What cities is Dublin being compared to? He does not mention. Are they the same size as Dublin and lots of European cities have sprawl as well - the difference is they have trains that work and run constantly.

I am starting to think that Frank McDonald expects people who livein Longford and work in Dublin to cycle to Dublin and back everyday or buy themselves an eco-freindly pad in Temple Bar for 3 million euro.

This guy is clueless about transport in many ways and like Gavin the Good should not be looked upon as a comentator on the subject.

Sarsfield

What a poorly presented article :rolleyes:

The research is not properly attributed, except to say it was presented to a workshop. Who conducted the research? Who funded it? Not a single name, organization or individual, is given, apart from Dublin Bus, the hosts, and Tapestry whoever they are.

All figures presented are, therefore, worthless. Even if they're correct.

I'm very disappointed Frank! I presume you read this board

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
I'm very disappointed Frank! I presume you read this board

While one may criticise the journalistic presentation of the article, one surely can’t escape the core point that commuting in / to the Dublin area is expensive.

There is no integrated ticketing system – each step of one’s journey is a separate ticket and more money to be paid out.

There is no inter-modal integration either making commuting more time consuming. Get off a train at Heuston Station and it can take ten minutes or longer before the connecting bus moves off because most of the passengers have to queue up and pay the bus fare. Pig inefficiency!

The main rail station is in the middle of nowhere, making the use of public transport more time consuming. Time is money. Not to mention costly taxis. In virtually every other city, the bahnhof or gare is situated bang in the middle so everything can revolve around it.

Anyone who loses patience with public transport and chooses instead to drive will face some of the highest car parking charges in the world, not to mention some of the slowest moving urban traffic in Europe getting to and from these expensive car parks!

Floater

Sarsfield

I agree with you Floater.

An acquaintance of mine (who lives in Germany) recently travelled to Dublin from Galway by train. On arriving at Heuston she tried to buy a Dublin Bus day-card to be told she'd have to get a bus to O'Connell St. to buy one :rolleyes:

Integrated ticketing is urgently needed.

The main train station isn't in the middle of nowhere. It's in Amiens St. It's just that most mainline trains don't actually go there!

Even Heustons location would be OK if there was proper transport along the quays. Buses, LUAS, taxi, cycle lanes. All are required. Oh, and a service through the Phoenix Park tunnel.

As an aside, can anyone tell me will the LUAS route from Heuston to Connolly be bicycle friendly? The main reason I don't cycle to work is my terror at the thought of negotiating the quays (or any of the alternatives).

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield

As an aside, can anyone tell me will the LUAS route from Heuston to Connolly be bicycle friendly? The main reason I don't cycle to work is my terror at the thought of negotiating the quays (or any of the alternatives).

When you make this trip to Zurich you will see that (a) it is not possible to bring your bike on a tram due to space considerations and (b) there is no “terror” biking around the city because the car has been decimated by the s-bahn (outer suburbia targets) and tram (stadtzentrum targets). Any area covered by trams should be bikeable. If not, one is stretching technology, logistics and humankind.

No big trucks allowed either in the stadtzentrum as in virtually every continental city. Let them dump their load in business parks on the ring road system and use 3,5T max vehicles to distribute to retailers in the centre.

Floater

Sarsfield

I actually meant will the route be good to cycle along, rather than can I bring my bike on the trams.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
I actually meant will the route be good to cycle along, rather than can I bring my bike on the trams.

Same answer applies!

Floater

Victor

For the non-German speakers "stadtzentrum" = "city centre"

Luas in places will have cycle paths, in other places they are actively discouraging cyclists (think of "granny" on her Triumph 20, obliviously holding up x number of trams behind her) by using raised patterned asphalt.

Sarsfield

For the non-English speakers "stadtzentrum" = "An Lar"

Which locations on LUAS will cycling be discouraged? The Heuston-Connolly bit by any chance?

Victor

lol @ An Lár.

Originally posted by Sarsfield
Which locations on LUAS will cycling be discouraged? The Heuston-Connolly bit by any chance?

I think pretty much any on-street section in the city centre.

There is also the side issue of tram tracks catching bicycle wheels.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
For the non-English speakers "stadtzentrum" = "An Lar"

Not according to the new www.dublincity.ie colo(u)r coded signage system. An Lár no longer exists! There is an international symbol for city centre (ie a dot in the middle of a circle). Apparently dublincity.ie never heard of it? They never heard of the Vienna Convention "no entry" sign either to prohibit drivers going the wrong way down a one way street!

The dual language signposting system is a critical driving factor in Ireland's signposting confusion for people who depend on signs - ie visitors to the country. Buy a map of Ireland in Germany and chances are the place names will be in Irish. And the road numbers will be E20 rather than N7, E30 rather than N25 etc.

In France one doesn't come across signs with Marseille spelt as "Marseilles" or Lyon spelt as "Lyons" in brackets or italics or anything else to accommodate an anglo corruption of the real place name - simply because x hundred million people have been taught to mis-spell the names of these cities or they have invented a new word for the town. In Rome one does as the Romans do. Except in dumbed down Ireland!


Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
An Lár no longer exists!

Yes it does

http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/pics/sign1.gif

RicardoSmith

Dublin is a commuters hell. Someone needs their arse kicking for letting it get this bad.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
Yes it does

http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/pics/sign1.gif

So we're back to the confusion of two languages!

Floater

MadsL

[URL=http://]http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/pics/sign1.gif [/URL]
So you want me to say that I live in Dr. na Drotha? Let me see, Mr Taximan please take me to Dr. na Drotha. Or will it depend on if he has taxi or tacsaí on the sign.

WTF???

RicardoSmith

Theres a few that aren't too good at english too!

Floater

Originally posted by MadsL
[URL=http://]http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/pics/sign1.gif [/URL]
So you want me to say that I live in Dr. na Drotha? Let me see, Mr Taximan please take me to Dr. na Drotha. Or will it depend on if he has taxi or tacsaí on the sign.

No. Nearly every sign is replicated - be it on a motorway or the new colour coded signs in Dublin. They need to be repeated because of the confusion caused by all the information in two languages.

An alternative:

Put the first sign at say 500 metres before the junction all in Irish and the second sign at say 100 metres before the junction all in English. Or vice versa. Use internationally recognised symbols instead of words where possible.

Clutter causes confusion. Ireland has the worst signposting in Europe for four reasons (look at any survey of tourists or business travellers - confusion and fear and lack of clarity and not knowing which lane to be in or if you can go down street x etc):

1) Clutter caused by two languages on a single "document"

2) Absence of systematic continuity of signage (ie the international standard is go straight on if you are following signs for a destination unless signposted to the left or right). Simple, minimalist, yet never heard of in Ireland AFAICS!

3) Non use of Vienna convention warning and advisory signs which is the global standard used everywhere - China, Continental Europe, South America - even Northern ireland.

4) Mixing up SI and British imperial measurements for distances and speeds.

Floater

RicardoSmith

I think theres also a shortage of signs. Quite often you get to a junction like a T-junction and its not sign posted at all. That more than anything else is a major problem.

Floater

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I think theres also a shortage of signs. Quite often you get to a junction like a T-junction and its not sign posted at all. That more than anything else is a major problem.

Even a street name would help - to find where one is on a Dublin street map!

The detailed street maps of Irish cities don't have national grid reference markings making a GPS device almost useless in an urban environment.

Where street names are signed, the sign is usually up on the wall of a building rather than on a sign on a pole that can be read as one drives along.


Floater

RicardoSmith

Then theres some streets which don't have any signs on them...

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
Use internationally recognised symbols instead of words where possible.

But we wouldn't understand there symbols ..... how many people understand what double ytellow lines are for? Hands up! One, two ...... three out of 1.5m drivers.

Capt'n Midnight

Double yellow lines are places you can park for up to 15 minutes provided your hazard warning lights are on.

Two yellow lines means two yellow lights

---

Any chance of a link to the original article
that % of GDP sounds scary

BigEejit

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Double yellow lines are places you can park for up to 15 minutes provided your hazard warning lights are on.
Two yellow lines means two yellow lights

Youre taking the píss arent you?

De Rebel

Originally posted by BigEejit
Youre taking the píss arent you?

Nope thats the law, although there is a slight inaccuracy in the statement.

Parking on yellow lines for a undefined "short" period was introduced in the 1977 Road Traffic (Amendment) Act, the same act that abolished Motor tax. This caused problems of interpretation in the District courts, as "short" has no meaning in law. On appeal to the High Court in 1982, with a subsequent point of law refered to the Supreme Court in 1983 this section of the act was thrown out as being repugnant to the constitution. With the introductiion of the 1984 Road Traffic (Amendment) Act, the Minister for Local Government was empowered to specify the period on a national level, which he did in Statuatory Instrument reference S.I. no 147 of 1985. It was set to 15 minutes, for all local authority areas. This was the situation until 1999, when the "4 Independents" (Jackie Healy Rae, Mildred Fox et al.) argued that a short period in Dublin was a totally differen thing to a short period in their more rural constituencies, and that while a fellow in Dublin could be expected to get his urgent business done in 15 minutes, it would take considerable longer in Kilgarvan, Newtownmountkenedy, or other one horse towns. The 4 independents went to the wire on this and hhed the FF/PD coalition to ransome, demanding a change. The 2000 Road Traffic (Amendment) Act , Section III, allows the Minister to vary the definition of "short" for each local authority area. The Minister has been touring the country over the last 3 hears holding talks withthe differnet authorities to review the needs in their areas and in many cases consultants have been engaged to study the matter an prepare reports and recommendations. So far, about 16 Local Authority areas have had "Variation orders" issued. I don't have all the data, but its probably available somewhere on www.oasis.ie The cases I know of are, Dublin (all 4 Council Areas) 15 minutes, however Fingall is still under review, Frank Dunlop is the consultant engaged. Clare; 35minutes (30 minutes + 5 minutes grace), South Kerry 30 minutes , North Kerry, where the have traditionally had a spring in their step, 25 minutes. Letrim is an interesting case, because they have no yellow lines. Local Businesses in manorhamilton have set up a campaign to have yellow lines introduced in conjunction with their first set of traffic lights.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
But we wouldn't understand there symbols ..... how many people understand what double ytellow lines are for? Hands up! One, two ...... three out of 1.5m drivers.

Double yellow lines aren't part of the Vienna convention on road signs either.

The correct way to signpost no parking is a sign with a red outline circle on a dark blue background with a diagnol red line across. Please see attachment.

Floater

parsi

I was in France last week (Normandy) and drove around a good bit. The signposting is excellent and we never got lost (indeed we never have on any of our trips including driving to Paris). Signs are clear, generally uncluttered.

Over here I seem to get lost whenever I venture up to Dublin usually when I leave the M50.

Driving up from Cork (as have said before) its easy to loose track of where you are because some counties don´t bother with signs informing you of how many more KM it is to Dublin and don´t forget that the speedlimit is in MPH.

A cracker is the 200m notice on the M7 (Portlaoise bypass) that the right lane is closing. You get 1km notice on the blarmey bypass which has a lower speed...consistency how are ye..

Floater

Originally posted by parsi
I was in France last week (Normandy) and drove around a good bit. The signposting is excellent and we never got lost (indeed we never have on any of our trips including driving to Paris). Signs are clear, generally uncluttered.

France has a well thought through signage manual that is consistently applied throughout the country.

Two simple features of French signposting that makes it work:

1) The “toutes directions” / “autre directions” signs that bring one from the town or city centre to a signage loop which goes around the town. A mini inner “ring road” that is nothing more than a collection of signs. Systematic and idiot proof when done properly.

Once you are on the loop you follow the “autre directions” signs until you hit the N234 or whatever road out of the town you are looking for. This system minimizes the amount of signage required, doesn’t require huge expensive signs, and is seamless – ie if you miss a turn-off keep on the toutes directions loop and you will come back to it again. The toutes directions loop also works for navigating drivers to suburban locations within a town.

2) Junction naming and gantry sign design on the voies rapides (dual carriageways in quaint Irish civil service speak – the horses and carriages are gone guys!) and autoroutes:

a) Each junction name is based on the big picture – eg “Grandville-Nord”, “Grandville-Centre” and “Grandville-Sud”. Rather than “Sarsfield Road Roundabout”. Chances are if you know Sarsfield Road, you probably aren’t depending on the signs because you know the place.

b) The next few junctions are listed in order of appearance on each gantry sign to enable you to decide which exit you will use – ie it gives a good overview of the options to get into Grandville. The immediately next junction is in italics, so there is no doubt in your mind where the next off ramp will take you. Particularly helpful where you have multiple off ramps close together. Junction names are all about the big thing they serve rather than where they are situated.

Applying “big picture” junction names to the N25 “ring road” in Cork:

1) Mahon complies – except should be Cork-Mahon, because Mahon isn’t a town.

2) Bloomfield is the name of a house on whose grounds the interchange was built. Should probably be called “Rochestown/Douglas” .

3) Kinsale Road Roundabout should be called “Cork-Centre” because it is the most efficient exit from the N25 to get into the city.

4) Sarsfield Road Roundabout should be “Cork-Wilton” (because Wilton is in Cork city – Rochestown and Douglas are not).

5) Finally “Cork-Bishopstown”.

Coming from the tunnel westbound, a gantry sign just coming up to Mahon would therefore list:

Cork-Mahon (in italics)
Rochestown/Douglas
Cork-Centre
Ballincollig

Only the next three or so junctions in order are named. The bottom item on the list is a major town at the end of the line. It might even be on another road number. It gives one a sense of big picture direction when consulting a map, etc.

Floater

gombín

Originally posted by Floater


The correct way to signpost no parking is a sign with a red outline circle on a dark blue background with a diagnol red line across.

Floater

Wrong country I'm afraid Floater. The sign for "No Parking" in Ireland is a white background; superseeded with a letter "P", in turn superseed by the red outline & diagonal.

Regards.

De Rebel

Originally posted by parsi
A cracker is the 200m notice on the M7 (Portlaoise bypass) that the right lane is closing. You get 1km notice on the blarmey bypass which has a lower speed...consistency how are ye..

I SOOOO discovered that sign yesterday. Its a dangerous disgrace. I was nearly creamed. Overtaking 2 artics at 75 and came upon it. In fairness one of the drivers realised what was happening and took action and made run off space for me. Way to ruin a good suit though.

I suppose some prat of a road engineer decided to save the cost of a proper set of signs on the basis that they would only be needed for 5 or 6 years till the next section opens.

Floater

Originally posted by gombín
Wrong country I'm afraid Floater. The sign for "No Parking" in Ireland is a white background; superseeded with a letter "P", in turn superseed by the red outline & diagonal.

We are back to non-compliance with the Vienna Convention again.

The international standard background colour for parking signs is blue, not white. (see file attachment)

(1) The sign designating parking areas is a white “P” on a blue background.

(2) The sign prohibiting parking (or waiting in your stopped vehicle) also has a blue background with a red circle and a diagonal line through it. It goes back to school days. When the teacher drew a circle around something or put a line through it with a red pen it was to signify that the item in question was wrong.

(3) The no stopping sign (so called “clearway”) is similar to (2) but has a double red diagonal line (in X format) against the blue background.

(4) These design, colour and standardization subtleties seem to have escaped the notice of Irish road sign designers. On many Irish roundabouts one can find an arrow purporting to point in the direction one should travel around the roundabout in the middle of a red circle (ie a prohibition symbol). (4b correct, 4a incorrect)

One way streets are also frequently signposted with an arrow surrounded by a red circle – the arrow pointing down the direction one is required to travel. Clueless, dyslexic sign designers!

Then there is the missing "No entry" sign - ie a red circle with a white barrier through the middle. Red = prohibition and the white barrier closing the route to vehicles facing it. Universal across the planet and if there is life on any other planet I have no doubt that they use it there too! But not in Ireland.

Is it any wonder that over 90% of visitors to Ireland who happen to drive in the country find it appallingly signposted? There is a total disregard for European and international standards and basic logic. Zero consistency.

It is difficult enough to have to drive on the wrong side of the road without having to put up with confusing signposting, the continuous mixing of System International and British imperial measurements, signs pointing in the wrong direction, the wrong signs pointing in the right direction…. a total dogs dinner of incompetence.

When is it going to end?

Floater

gombín

Originally posted by Floater

We are back to non-compliance with the Vienna Convention again.

To the best of my knowledge, we are not signatories of the Vienna Convention on Traffic, making "non-compliance" a tad difficult.

The international standard background colour for parking signs is blue, not white. (see file attachment)

By international, I presume you mean any of the European signatories of the convention. Try telling the other 6 billion on the planet that they are "wrong".

(1) The sign designating parking areas is a white “P” on a blue background.

White

(2) The sign prohibiting parking (or waiting in your stopped vehicle) also has a blue background with a red circle and a diagonal line through it. It goes back to school days. When the teacher drew a circle around something or put a line through it with a red pen it was to signify that the item in question was wrong.

As above

(3) The no stopping sign (so called “clearway”) is similar to (2) but has a double red diagonal line (in X format) against the blue background.

You're correct on this score.

(4) These design, colour and standardization subtleties seem to have escaped the notice of Irish road sign designers. On many Irish roundabouts one can find an arrow purporting to point in the direction one should travel around the roundabout in the middle of a red circle (ie a prohibition symbol). (4b correct, 4a incorrect)

Prohibiting you from travelling in any direction save the one indicated.

One way streets are also frequently signposted with an arrow surrounded by a red circle – the arrow pointing down the direction one is required to travel. Clueless, dyslexic sign designers!

As you say above, a prohibition symbol.

Then there is the missing "No entry" sign - ie a red circle with a white barrier through the middle. Red = prohibition and the white barrier closing the route to vehicles facing it. Universal across the planet and if there is life on any other planet I have no doubt that they use it there too! But not in Ireland.

Quite logical if you think about it. It's the same as above with the prohibition diagonal included.

s it any wonder that over 90% of visitors to Ireland who happen to drive in the country find it appallingly signposted? There is a total disregard for European and international standards and basic logic. Zero consistency.

Heaven forbid if they were to try driving in America.

It is difficult enough to have to drive on the wrong side of the road without having to put up with confusing signposting, the continuous mixing of System International and British imperial measurements, signs pointing in the wrong direction, the wrong signs pointing in the right direction…. a total dogs dinner of incompetence.

When is it going to end?

Probably when we join a European federal-state. There's is nothing wrong with our system, save the fact that it is different to some of the ones on the continent or across the water. Change to metric and leave it as it is. If continentals don't understand it, then their logic need checking.

Regards.

Floater

Originally posted by gombín
To the best of my knowledge, we are not signatories of the Vienna Convention on Traffic,

Why hasn’t Ireland either signed or implemented the standards of the Vienna Convention on traffic signposting? Every other European country has.

Virtually every other country on the planet uses this system - China, Japan, Korea, Russia, India, every country in the Middle East and Africa, South and Central America, Mexico … I’m running out of countries. Even the insular Americans use the Vienna Convention no entry sign. How do you arrive at 6bn please?

All out of step except my Jonnie?

How many visitors to Ireland die or are injured every year as a result of signposting issues? How many Irish citizens who live outside the country are involved in accidents in Ireland because of signposting negligence.

How many Irish residents are involved in accidents in the rest of the world (including Northern Ireland) because they are not familiar with the universal signage system used across the planet?

Smoking is bad for your health and the state is finally waking up to its responsibilities in this area. One wonders when will “Bord Failte” advertising material and websites warn visitors about the non-compliant state of the nation's signposting system?

This has nothing to do with a "European Federal State". It is a global UN standard that has been implemented by virtually the entire world, except Ireland.

Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
How many visitors to Ireland die or are injured every year as a result of signposting issues? .

About 4-6 non-Irish (republic) people are killed on our roads every year out of circa 400 killed.

Originally posted by Floater
How many Irish citizens who live outside the country are involved in accidents in Ireland because of signposting negligence. How many Irish residents are involved in accidents in the rest of the world (including Northern Ireland) because they are not familiar with the universal signage system used across the planet?

Very difficult to estimate other than trawling through statistics from nearly 200 countries and news reports.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor

About 4-6 non-Irish (republic) people are killed on our roads every year out of circa 400 killed

Where did you get that number from? I suspect that it is a lot higher than that when you consider the number of people who visit the Republic from northern Ireland and the high accident rate they seem to incur. According to http://www.gov.ie/debates-00/23feb/sect5.htm 10% of road accidents involve a "foreign" driver.

Floater

Floater

"The tourist board says Ireland is not living up to its tourist potential because the government is failing to tackle problems such as signposting and litter control.

A survey published this morning shows that most visitors rated our litter problem as `terrible`, with particular mention being paid to dog droppings.

Many tourists also complained of the anxiety caused by poor signposting on the road network.

Seán Quinn is the Chief Executive of Fáilte Ireland. He says the survey`s findings come as no suprise."

Floater


http://www.utvlive.com/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=38862&pt=n