Does employer own my ideas?

halo14

A few of my mates and I are working on a software project during our spare time. We hope to try and sell this product on the web as shareware.

Recently one of my other friends made the point that the code is not ours to sell. He said because we are all computer programmers with full time day jobs our employers own all intellectual property rights to everything we write whether in work or at home.

BTW this on the side work in no way competes with our employers products.

Can anybody shed some light on this?

HALO14

nahdoic

Not being smart. But read your contract. It depends on your employer.

The Corinthian

It’s a standard enough clause in employment contracts for developers along with the non-competition clause that technically forbids you from working for a competitor for a period of anything between six months and two years after you leave the firm in question.

As for whether such clauses are worth the paper they’re written on is another matter. My understanding is that if a condition of employment is unreasonable (such as the non-competition clause, which if followed would mean that you would have to go on the Dole for six months every time you left a job) then it won’t stand up in court.

I do know that a certain well known Web Dev firm in Dublin recently brought High Court proceedings against a number of former employees who had left and set up a rival company, launching a suite of products within months of leaving their old jobs. In that case, the former employees were accused of stealing code from their former employer. Ultimately, I heard it was dropped on the day the case was to be heard, out of court. So my guess is that such a clause is not worth the paper it’s written on. Nonetheless, I suggest you seek legal advice to be certain.

jmcc

Originally posted by halo14
A few of my mates and I are working on a software project during our spare time. We hope to try and sell this product on the web as shareware.

A very difficult call but since you are developing the program on your own time that is something at least in your favour.

BTW this on the side work in no way competes with our employers products.

This is also helpful. The best thing would be to get a proper legal opinion on this. However since the program does not conflict with your employers' business/programs and you are developing it without your respective employer's resources, you have a chance with it. Also as nahdoic said, have your contracts checked.

Regards...jmcc

Evil Phil

As The Corinthian says its standard in a developers contract to give your employer intellectual property rights to all your code written for them or otherwise. I don't know of any cases where this has stood up in court but I don't know of any cases where it didn't stand up in court. Check with a soliciter to see if you can get around this but if its in your contract then you have agreed to it.

Doesn't mean they have to know though.

tendofan

Aside from the comments above, it would probably also be in your
favour if your code is written on your own hardware with dev tools
legally licensed to you.

Tendofan

bonkey

Shocking idea, but depending on your work relationship, you could discuss this directly with your employer and ask for written permission to persue the idea as your own or to do "personal, non-competitive development work" in general.

As pointed out, though, make sure that nothing you use in the development process is owned by the employers of any of you...software or hardware.

jc

Hobbes

Read your contract.

Generally even if the product does not compete in anyway they can still claim ownership to the code. There have been numerous instances of such cases.

I wish I could remember the Open source project, but a developer one time didn't get permission from his company so they had to remove all code he had created in that time he was working on it, and rebuild the whole project sections from scratch.

Biding your time and leaving to complete the project doesn't protect you either if they can prove that you had the idea while under their employment. There was a UK case where a guy put forward an idea to his company to do on his spare time. They refused so he quit and made it, they sued and won for the project and all its information.

If it is not something that is going make massive amounts of money or is free in general some companies will let you do it (with your own resources + time). However my company for example to do such a thing is allowed but you have to jump through so many hoops and speak to so many people and Legal that unless it is something industry defining it is not worth the hassle.

So as pointed out. It depends on your contract and terms and conditions of employment.

Peace

Assuming you are not developing your work on your employers computers/time you should be ok. But as the rest of the lads say check your contract. If this was the case you would have to prove you didn't do any dev on your employers machines....tricky if you ask me.

Just as an aside - its getting common practice for colleges to lock the IPR's on students projects these days. My project which i posted about previously could well be a real money spinner in the industry however my college own the IPR's even though i wouldn't use any college pc's.....plus its not like they are paying for me to work on the project...infact i'm paying them....

cowboys man, cowboys.:mad:

Typedef

Originally posted by halo14
A few of my mates and I are working on a software project during our spare time. We hope to try and sell this product on the web as shareware.

To be honest, a company would have a hard time laying ownership to source code you write, on your home machine and not on company time, especially, if the source code is in no way connected to the company's main product.

For example, say you work writing C code for company x, for embedded medical applications.

Then you turn around and write a proggie, that caches RPC data for an open source project, how would the company actually prove that your code, written from your home PC, which (Importantly) the company didn't pay you to write, was theirs?

If they don't pay you to write it baby, they can't claim ownership, simple.

Unless you signed one of those contracts that essentially makes you a slave to the whims of management fools.

See attachment.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Peace
Just as an aside - its getting common practice for colleges to lock the IPR's on students projects these days. My project which i posted about previously could well be a real money spinner in the industry however my college own the IPR's even though i wouldn't use any college pc's.....plus its not like they are paying for me to work on the project...infact i'm paying them....

Then drop out and renounce any degree/diploma/cert from them.

dazberry

Most things have been covered already I guess, but also make sure that you are not using any of the respective companies tools or third party libraries (I don't mean in-house libs here - that's a no-no).

If any of the respective companies are goint to get shirty, that's one way they could do it, even if the licence has a fair use clause such as the Borland no nonsence licence.

... regardless of all that ... good luck!

D.

Peace

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Then drop out and renounce any degree/diploma/cert from them.

Indeed, it would be a step in the right direction anyway...for all parties concerned.

uberwolf

Peace- myself and the lads are just after having a debate about that in the lab here. You know of specific colleges? Some of our projects will end up with papers published, who's name would go on it? Ours or are supervisors? and whose would be first?

Peace

I don't think there will be a paper published but some of the projects are being developed specifically for/sold to certain companies.

My project will be the property of the college/supervisor. My supervisor was very specific about this. My college is Griffith College in dublin.

oneweb

You're using your employer's resources (time, equipment, etc) therefore your employer has the right to claim ownership for it. Or at least a share of the profits. So I recall from Law class anyway.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by oneweb
You're using your employer's resources (time, equipment, etc) therefore your employer has the right to claim ownership for it. Or at least a share of the profits. So I recall from Law class anyway.

Weren't you listening? He does this in his spare time and at home. :rolleyes:

oneweb

Originally posted by Silent Bob
Weren't you listening? He does this in his spare time and at home. :rolleyes:

If that is the case, of course the employer has nothing to do with it at all. However, you have taken the implication that this person is doing such a project at home. The original poster never said explicitly that s/he does it at home. Weren't you reading carefully? Legal matters require explicit knowledge. Admittedly I made the same mistake by presuming the poster was using the resources at work.

This point needs some clarification...
...does the poster use the resources at work/home or both?