the Sys building advice (parasite strikes again)

pencil

Hi All,

Two months ago I got come great advice off you people about building my first system. Unfortunately the funds for the project fell through (any of you who have bought an engagement ring will have an idea how easily money can evaporate). Anyaways I'm back on track - the money has been ring-fenced (I got the nod from the new boss ;-) & it's a matter of choosing & placing the orders!

Before I do, I love to get your learned opinions on the following setup, I am trying to keep the price down but will spend more if you guys think its worth it.

Mobo:
From what I've read & the last bit of advice this still looks good + I get to stick 2 HDs on it, do you still like?
Asus A7N8X Deluxe/GD mainboard Rev 2.0
nForce2SPP/MCP-T/Ultra 400,1394,Dual LAN
EUR 118.86

Chip:
AMD Athlon XP2500+ 1.833 GHz 333 MHz bus, Socket A (Barton) processor, 512kb. OEM
EUR 98.01

RAM:
Really need advice here - to be honest I'm lost with the range of choice (what happened to cheap ram)
DDR-DIMM PC2700 1024MB DDR CL2.5 Memory 184-P (for DDR-PC333MHz)
EUR 279.70


Graphics Card:
From my reading of the last few weeks of posts this seems to be the way to go!
Sapphire Radeon 9600XT Atlantis 256M DDR
AGP, ATI 9600XT, DVI-I, TV-Out,
EUR 202.61

So far am I spending my €699.18 well?


I'd love this system to be really quiet (don't think I up to water cooling just yet) what else would you recommend for a quiet system in the case, fan, PSU area?

Sorry for the mother of lists of questions.

Dempsey

What applications will the machine be doing and whats your budget?

pencil

Hey Dempsy,

The machine will mainly be used for Graphics work (Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver etc, allong with multimedia development - Dir & Flash)

I'm full of good intentions of getting me head fully around aftereffects & a bit of Max - but we'll see.

And then there's the gameing - it must be good gaming machine.

Budget: I'd like to do it all (2HDs, CDRW Modem, Floppy, Case, etc.) for around €1000, I can spend up to €1400 if necessary.

unkel

Originally posted by pencil
any of you who have bought an engagement ring will have an idea how easily money can evaporate

Congrats


My twocents:

1. CPU + Mobo: excellent choice, best value for money
2. RAM, don't get this. You need 2 chips for twinbank capabilities of your mobo. Get Komplett's generic RAM which is twinmos. Get PC3200 512MB*2 for about €170
3. Graphics, get yourself cheapest 9600PRO 128MB you can find (about €140 - €150) you don't need 256MB and PRO much better than non-PRO

Total €530

Originally posted by pencil
I'd love this system to be really quiet (don't think I up to water cooling just yet) what else would you recommend for a quiet system in the case, fan, PSU area?

Zalman's your man. With the €170 I've so far saved you, get the 400W powersupply and 7000 series 750grams pure copper fan :cool:

My slightly overclocked cpu now runs at 34C under load - better than basic watercooling sets can do

El_MUERkO

I have that mobo and CPU, they're great, I'm overclocking to XP2800 speeds in a bog standard case.

I'd go with 2 * Corsair XMS 2700 512meg chips for the ram.

The 9600XT is better than the 9600 pro, where'd you get that info from?

SickBoy

As far as I know the XT is the "Ultra" version of the 9x00.

Originally posted by El_MUERkO
The 9600XT is better than the 9600 pro, where'd you get that info from?

unkel

Originally posted by El_MUERkO
The 9600XT is better than the 9600 pro, where'd you get that info from?

My mistake - overlooked that

If he is spending that kinda money, he might as well go 9800 PRO

Originally posted by El_MUERkO
I'd go with 2 * Corsair XMS 2700 512meg chips for the ram.

Surely he'll need to go for 3200 DDR to run the system FSB and memory at 200MHz?

El_MUERkO

If hes overclocking the CPU to 200 mhz maybe but I've been told its good to match mhz.

By the way the new FX5700 which is going in direct competition with the 9600XT looks like it rocks hard in its first few comparisons.

Might be one to wtch out for, the release of the 5700 & the 5950 could start a price war as well.

pencil

Cheers great stuff.

So your all saying that the 9600pro is better?

I'm confused on the gfx card the 9600XT & Pro are roughly the same price?


unkel, I'll look up on that Zeldman stuff cheers.


Keep um coming

El_MUERkO

The XT is better than the PRO. Its newer and faster.

Get the XT :ninja:

pencil

Cheers EL_MUERKO

On the hard drives for this board, the specs state:

Storage Controller = RAID ( Serial ATA-150 ) - integrated &
Storage Controller = (2nd) IDE ( DMA/ATA-133 (Ultra) Fast Drives)

does that mean that I must put a 'serial ATA' in one slot, like:

HardDrive-1
Maxtor S-ATA/150 80GB 7200RPM 8MB - DiamondMax Plus 9, 8 MB cache
EUR 88.69

& a IDE ATA-133 in the other, like this

HardDrive-2
Maxtor IDE ATA-133 120GB 7200RPM - DiamondMax Plus 9 8 MB cache
EUR 108.60

what do you guys think of these?

thanks again.

Dempsey

Hmmm, According to Komplett when you show the specification there are:

2 x storage - Serial ATA-150 - 7 pin Serial ATA
2 x storage - DMA/ATA-133 (Ultra) Fast Drives - 40 PIN IDC

My recommendation is get two Western Digital Raptors (SATA 10Krpm 36.6Gb) and implement RAID 0 for sheer speed.

A 72Gb version will be out in the future but they'll be roughly £200 Sterling:( A tad epensive and I doubt you want to wait

pencil

Thanks for the advice Dempsey, stick with me for one more round if you can


Western Digital Raptor 36,7GB SATA
10000Rpm 8MB cache WD360GD the 10000Rpm is the key I take it.

When you say "and implement RAID 0 for sheer speed" you mean the 'Western Digital Raptor' in slot one? where I problably run win2k. When you say "implement for" do you mean some form of custom setup?

I may go with something less expensive with a higher capacity for the second drive (digital photo & MP3 storage). This drive will store my archive of Graphics work (also on cd) for the past 8 (christ) years. Could you recommend anything ?

Should I be running 3 HDS,
No.1 for OS,
No.2 for General storage &
No.3 for Archive of important data.

thanks for your help

Dempsey

Thats the one alright. Not sure what your asking me about "implementing RAID " Read that link if you not sure what im on about. But implementing RAID will improvement access times siginificantly. There is a RAID controller on yer motherboard, thats why im recommending you to consider it.

You'll have the capacity of the two drives but i think they are considered one drive (in RAID 0). I still have to use RAID myself but other ppl can give you the finer points of what to expect.

The RAIDed Raptors could function as the OS and the General Storage. And get a ATA-133 250Gb for your achives(they are quite fast even the ones with 5400rpm and 2Mb cache). But one raptor is still very FAST.

Col_Loki

When you are Raid 0 'ing the hard drives they have to be both the same capacity drives.

The Raptor is a monster, low capacity, why not go for mabye 2x120gb SATA drives ??

I would advise against getting a 250gb Hard Disk bacause he will have an AMD system which means the usual ............... the pc can only see 137gb. And why go down the road of a seperate IDE controller etc.

You have SATA, its faster than IDE, its neater........ 2x120gb SATA 8mb and your flying IMO.

pencil

Dempsey,

cheers for that link, I am now some educated on RAID-0, redundant arrays, stripping etc. It sounds great, but chosing between software or hardware RAID controlling (or stripping drives) is a place, that some where deep inside of me, something yelling 'run, run for your the sake of your sanity' ;-) I'm going to take a step backwards & choose two good drives & partition them. (if its p!ss easy, do point out my cowardice)

COL_LOKI your suggestion of '2x120gb SATA 8mb' sounds good, or would I be better going with the Western Digital Raptor 36,7GB SATA 10000Rpm 8MB for OS & APPs and one of these Maxtor S-ATA/150 120GB 7200RPM 8MB
DiamondMax Plus 9, 8 MB cache for data storage ?

I know I'm getting picky - fu@k it I'll go with '2x120gb SATA 8mb'.


unkel

On the Zaldman's stuff 'this PSU 400W powersupply' &
the 7000 series in the chip cooler any recommendation on which one to go for + where to buy komplett no-go?

pencil

Zaldman on overclockers have this

Would you recommend this it seems a bit odd & is the only one compatible for AMD socket A

Col_Loki

To be honest i think you will be happy with the 2x120gb SATA drives, 80gb more is nice to have . High performance drives anyway and not much more than IDE ones.

For quiet PSU's try Here They get great reviews, german built, and variable speed (normally v.quiet). HiTide are a good company aswell, have bought my water cooling rig from them - very fast.

Ultra quiet machines go for water cooling mabye ?? A little harder to install but...........nice performance to noise ratio.

Heatsink wise, Zalmans are great no doubts about it......... only prob is it will take up one of your PCI slots ( you have to mount a fan over the heatsink to extract air....... another option would be....... This has gotten very good reviews, suppose to be nice and quiet and looks very flashy ??

Are you going to be overclocking (a little ie Xp3200+ or alot 2.3ghz+) or keeping it standard?

unkel

Originally posted by pencil


unkel

On the Zaldman's stuff 'this PSU 400W powersupply' &
the 7000 series in the chip cooler any recommendation on which one to go for + where to buy komplett no-go?

PSU is the one

Tom's verdict:
"In the 400- to 449-Watt class, Zalman's ZM400A-APF is a solid power supply that really performs well. A definite plus is its low noise levels: At 27.5 db(A) at minimum load, the power supply is almost inaudible."

Note that it actually produces 450W max


Fan is not - you'd want to get this one:

http://www.zalman.co.kr/english/product/cnps7000a-cu.htm

This is just superb :cool:

dunno where to buy this stuff in Ireland, maybe Elara? Komplett are not the best for specialist hardware unfortunately. Got mine a couple of weeks ago in a shop in Holland. PSU €97, fan €49 (buying the fan was the best PC related purchase I have ever made)

Col_Loki

Yea id agree with unkel there, Zalman stuff is great............. only problem is its expensive, its not available in ireland (elara dont do it AFAIK) and the shipping from UK is normally £25 stg which is killer.

Where to buy these without having to speek a foreign language or pay that crappy delivery price..........??

Thats just why i recomended HiTide, so handy

pencil

fu@kin stars, thanks a million - reckon the 25stg is worth it for the silence (computer is in a living area)

pencil

Thanks for all your help, this is what I'm going to go for, most is based on your recommendations, some on price (RAM).

Before I buy, can any one see any conflicts or would you change anything?

Probably going to pick up a case in peats or maplins, any recommendations?

Asus A7N8X Deluxe/GD mainboard Rev 2.0 nForce2SPP/MCP-T/Ultra 400,1394,Dual LAN
EUR 118.86

AMD Athlon XP2500+ 1.833 GHz 333 MHz bus Socket A (Barton) processor, 512 kb. OEM
EUR 98.01

Sapphire Radeon 9600XT Atlantis 256M DDR AGP, ATI 9600XT, DVI-I, TV-Out
EUR 202.61

2 x Crucial PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB CL3 5ns Unbuffered, Non-parity, 2.5V, 64Meg x 64
EUR 203.40

2 x [url=http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?action=info&sku=115560&p=&t=1762&l=2&AvdID=1&CatID=9&GrpID=10&cks=PRL [/url] Maxtor S-ATA/150 120GB 7200RPM 8MB DiamondMax Plus 9, 8 MB cache [/url]
EUR 232.80 (total)

Zalman ZM400A-APF 400W PSU (CA-001-ZA)
EUR 109.91 (from Overclock.co.uk)

Zalman CNPS7000A-CU Socket 478 / AMD Socket 462 / 754
EUR 54.02 (from Overclock.co.uk)

total= 1019.61

Col_Loki

Hey man, that looks like a very sweet system .

Cant see any conflicts at all. Some very good choices there, if your happy with the price of the zalman you will be delighted with how it performs!!

The only thing to think about is that you will prob need atleast one case fan, try to get a silent one......if possible one that is variable speed. These are very cheap , sharkoon is a very good choice (i have 2 and there ultra ultra silent) they have a nice handy little knob to regulate the noise and airflow !!

pencil

These Sharkoon Case FAN SL3 14-18 db ultra silent sounds good
EUR 15.98


On the case I'm thinking of this: Lian-Li PC-7 Aluminium Midi Tower (No PSU)
EUR 96.63

Dempsey

Watch out for the Loudness of the PSU. No point in having silent fans and a PSU as loud as a aeroplane

Creamy Goodness

i heard you talking about getting the WD raptor drives 2x36gigs

i'd wait cos in november the 76gig version is coming out.

but if you can't well go for the 36gig raptor

i have one and they are great **** fast also they aren't the noiseyest of drives but they aren't the quiestest either

Col_Loki

Watch out for the Loudness of the PSU

The case he's thinkin of gettin has no PSU, hes getting the Zalman silent PSU to go with it !!

Personally i'd love a raptor but it would have to have a higher capacity. Like Cr3m0 said there comming soon.........

For the min i think the best buy is the 120gb SATA 8mb which are very quiet and have decent capacity. (also good performance) .

unkel

Pencil,

The latency of that memory is 3, not very fast.

I would go for the generic RAM that is actually on special offer from Komplett from tomorrow for €80 a stick - this is actually TwinMOS (CAS 2.5) as you can clearly see on the picture

Originally posted by COL_LOKI
Personally i'd love a raptor but it would have to have a higher capacity

Yeah have been very keen on getting one of these babies for quite some time :cool:

Also waiting for higher capacity / better value for money

unkel

Pencil,

Forgot this: make sure you check on the Zalman site that the mobo is compatible with the fan. I'm pretty sure it is since I've the A7N8X-X which has similar layout afaik

Several motherboards can not accommodate this fan, so beware!

Was contemplating going with the Epox on Komplett's offer last week and the fan will work, but you have to cut off the end of the mounting clip of the fan. That's not too bad but you will not be able to use the clip anymore if you're upgrading to AMD 64bit. Good chance I will in the next year or so, that's why I discarded the idea of going for the Epox

Isn't it funny that I chose a mobo to fit the fan and not the other way around

pencil

Originally posted by unkel
Pencil,

The latency of that memory is 3, not very fast.

I would go for the generic RAM that is actually on special offer from Komplett from tomorrow for €80 a stick - this is actually TwinMOS (CAS 2.5) as you can clearly see on the picture

unkel , is this the RAM you recommend TwinMOS PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB CL2.5 Memory184-P (for DDR-PC400MHz)


cheers

Col_Loki

The Ram on the specials, that link isint workin for me but it looks like that from the description.

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.asp?action=info&sku=112666&p=&t=1014&l=2&AvdID=1&CatID=17&GrpID=9&cks=PRL
This is TwinMos aswell if you need it in a hurry... (any OEM ram weve got from komplett is TwinMos).

Isn't it funny that I chose a mobo to fit the fan and not the other way around

Ahh anything for silence right !! Im the exact same i got my case based around my water cooling ......

The more you use your PC the quieter it has to be.

pencil

Originally posted by unkel
Forgot this: make sure you check on the Zalman site that the mobo is compatible with the fan. I'm pretty sure it is since I've the A7N8X-X which has similar layout afaik

Several motherboards can not accommodate this fan, so beware!

Cheers for that unkel,

The Zaldmans site

the compatiblity table on the zaldman site for the A7N8X Deluxe, indicates that Power Supply must not interfere with the heatsink Compatibility requires that no physical interference by the power supply occurs within the 55mm radius of the CPU socket's center. I don't know what this means - does anyone know if this is problematic?


Ths site also says the following:
"* Specified maximum weight for a cooler 300g for the AMD Socket 462 CPU. Special care should be taken when moving a computer equipped with a cooler exceeding the weight guideline. Zalman Tech is not responsible for any damage that occurs when moving a computer. "

Should I be wary of this?

unkel

My interpretation of those comments on the website was:

1. If you have standard size case (or larger) with the PSU mounted in the top of the case above the mobo, it's grand. Not so good if psu is physically over the motherboard (not above) as in mini cases, etc

2. All is grand as long as you are careful moving the PC about. Unsuitable for a PC that gets hauled around all day (or LAN parties etc)

Hope this helps

netman

Originally posted by Dempsey
Thats the one alright. Not sure what your asking me about "implementing RAID " Read that link if you not sure what im on about. But implementing RAID will improvement access times siginificantly. There is a RAID controller on yer motherboard, thats why im recommending you to consider it.

You'll have the capacity of the two drives but i think they are considered one drive (in RAID 0). I still have to use RAID myself but other ppl can give you the finer points of what to expect.

The RAIDed Raptors could function as the OS and the General Storage. And get a ATA-133 250Gb for your achives(they are quite fast even the ones with 5400rpm and 2Mb cache). But one raptor is still very FAST.

erm, just one clarification there. RAID 0 won't improve your access times, if anything it could reduce them slightly. what gets improved is transfer rates.

what pencil needs to ask him/herself is what will you use the drives for:

if you need a system that's able to process large files fast - either reading or writing sequentially (but not read & write / copy) - RAID 0 is the way to go.

if you need a system that's able to access files, process, write back etc, you're better off with two separate drives. for example if you're reading an mpeg stream, applying filters in adobe aftereffects and writing it back, in a RAID 0 scenario it means every drive in the array has to read and then write. generally reading and writing to the same drive is much slower than reading from one drive and writing to another.

if you're not going for a RAID solution, WD Raptors are still a great choice for the system drive. get a raptor and a large 7200rpm 8MB sata drive as your second drive. 36 gig is more than enough for your windows, applications, swap space and temporary files. you can use the slower drive for storage and as a part of video processing.

netman

one comment on the memory:

AMD systems don't generally get much improvement from a higher bus speed, and nForce motherboards don't generally provide much of an improvement in dual-channel mode, unless you're using the integrated graphics - which you won't be doing.

i'd go for faster (lower latency) memory, matching the fsb of the processor. since the difference between 2x256 and 1x512 is minimal, i'd get two sticks of RAM. if you plan on upgrading later, go with 1x512MB and get another 512MB stick later on.

for a 166mhz fsb processor, you need pc2700 memory. if you plan to overclock it, and get the fsb to 200 or over, you'd need pc3200 memory.

pencil

Cheers netman. v. helpful

Dempsey

Originally posted by netman
erm, just one clarification there. RAID 0 won't improve your access times, if anything it could reduce them slightly. what gets improved is transfer rates.

Sorry, I meant to say what you've said. Sorry for being misleading.