A publican can only use reasonable force to stop people smoking so in fact his hands

Vader · 11-10-2003 7:03pm #1

A publican can only use reasonable force to stop people smoking so in fact his hands are tied.

Barman"Paddy I'l have to ask you to stop smoking its aginst the law"

Paddy" Feck off I've smoked in pubs for the last 40 years, think your going to make me go out and smoke in the pissing rain, feck off"

Barman"Paddy it's not me its the law I'm going to have to ask you to leave if you continue to smoke"

Paddy"Just Fu cking try man, ring that number and I'l sort them out"

???

Kazu · 11-10-2003 7:21pm

LAME

Capt'n Midnight · 11-10-2003 8:06pm

All the barman has to do is stop serving, then call the police.

Or someone else there could make a citizens arest or report the publican to the police and sue the bar, Gardai confiscate the CCTV tape. Open and shut case - make an example of a few publicans..

How are the Pubs doing in Kerry - any TD's lighting up ??

Mac daddy · 12-10-2003 1:49am

why is this in humor:rolleyes:

BioHazRd · 12-10-2003 10:09am

Moving to AH - definitely not for the humour board

Bio

Stephen · 12-10-2003 8:58pm

I don't think its legal to make a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanour (ie a crime which carries a sentence of less than 5 years).

Turner · 13-10-2003 10:29am

Originally posted by Stephen
I don't think its legal to make a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanour (ie a crime which carries a sentence of less than 5 years).

Correct, Only for a crime that carries 5yrs or more on indictment.

Victor · 13-10-2003 12:14pm

Originally posted by Stephen
I don't think its legal to make a citizen's arrest for a misdemeanour (ie a crime which carries a sentence of less than 5 years).

There is no longer a distinction between misdemeanor and felony in Irish law.

13-10-2003 12:43pm

As someone else said, a publican will throw you out if you openly bring drink into a pub with you.

They are being deliberately selective in saying they cannot kick people out for smoking.
They can when they want to.

mm

rubadub · 13-10-2003 2:01pm

treat it the exact same as smoking cannabis in the pub

Dustaz · 13-10-2003 2:11pm

Originally posted by rubadub
treat it the exact same as smoking cannabis in the pub

You mean turn a blind eye to it?

woosaysdan · 13-10-2003 2:50pm

Originally posted by rubadub
treat it the exact same as smoking cannabis in the pub

spark up beside tnem?

Peace · 13-10-2003 3:07pm

Treat it exactly the same as someone dealing crack in the pub.

ie. It might happen but in VERY selective places.

If they wanted to enfource it the could do it - the only thing is that the vitners association doesn't like being told how to run their business.

Did anyone hear them complain abouyt extended opening hours - they managed that one ok??

Dustaz · 13-10-2003 3:58pm

Originally posted by Peace

Did anyone hear them complain abouyt extended opening hours - they managed that one ok??

They complained about that for years. Then they welcomed it because it was good for business.

Banning smoking in pubs is potentially bad for business. Whether it has a tangible effect remains to be seen. However, it is more likely that people will stop going than start going because of the ban.

If a situation occurs where a loophole is found and some pubs can allow smoking, it could be very bad indeed for some pubs.

woosaysdan · 13-10-2003 4:41pm

i work in a pub and i know my boss is talking about ignoring the ban!!!

rubadub · 13-10-2003 4:52pm

treat it the exact same as smoking cannabis in the pub

Originally posted by Dustaz
You mean turn a blind eye to it?

if somebody goes up to a bouncer or barman and complains about somebody smoking cannabis i dont think they will turn a blind eye, who is to say you are not an off duty garda

Turner · 13-10-2003 4:59pm

The most they will do will ask them to leave. You cannot be arrested for simple posession of cannabis. You can however be summonsed for posession and in both cases the Gard will seize the drugs.

I wonder if reasonable force allows the use of a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher. That would surely put out those pesky fags

Cohiba · 14-10-2003 5:09am

At the moment we don't know what the penalties/ regulations are concerning the new law. Smoking in a pub, or any other workplace, is not, and will not be in any way comparable to either smoking cannabis, or dealing crack. We are talking about something that is currently legal, being made overnight illegal. And the Gardai have already said they will not, and understandably cannot, enforce the ban....
Dublin city centre at 1am on a Saturday night, a publican puts a '999' call in, he's got.... A smoker who won't put out his fag!!! See my point?
Also, yes, any right minded publican will throw you out if you bring your own drink into a bar....
So it will, as far as anyone can tell at the moment, be up to individual publicans/managers/staff/doorstaff to enforce the ban, or face whatever penalties as will be announced, (this week I believe).
As has been pointed out, of course publicans didn't complain about extended opening hours... How is that relevant to the smoking issue?
One final comment, and a point that I have yet to be seen anywhere... To the best of my knowledge there have been two (definitely one anyway) 'no smoking' bars opened in Ireland in the last 5 years. Both closed within 1 year. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Imposter · 14-10-2003 7:49am

Originally posted by Cohiba
One final comment, and a point that I have yet to be seen anywhere... To the best of my knowledge there have been two (definitely one anyway) 'no smoking' bars opened in Ireland in the last 5 years. Both closed within 1 year. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Never heard of these and i'd say the vast majority of people haven't either. If nobody ever heard of them it's no wonder they had to close!

Also this law is going to have the effect of changing atttitudes towards smoking. The proposed law is quite possibly going to change the attitudes of non-smokers as much as smokers. Non-smokers will possibly begin to question why they had to put up with smoking for so long. This will not happen if having a non-smoking bar is voluntary.

rubadub · 14-10-2003 10:59am

Originally posted by Cohiba
At the moment we don't know what the penalties/ regulations are concerning the new law. Smoking in a pub, or any other workplace, is not, and will not be in any way comparable to either smoking cannabis, or dealing crack.

-yes, the legal implications are not the same as smoking cannabis in a pub, nobody is saying otherwise. but the reaction of the barstaff should be the same, simply ask them to leave. if you want to get a better comparison in terms of legality at the moment then consider what barstaff would say to somebody sniffing glue in a pub. a perfectly legal act but i dont think it would be tolerated, again simply asked to leave, no legal issue at all in that case. the glue fumes would harm other "non-gluers" just like smoking. but what about the rights of the gluesniffers? are they not entitled to have a sniff with their pint after work, if the non-gluers dont like it they can stay at home.

Originally posted by Cohiba
As has been pointed out, of course publicans didn't complain about extended opening hours... How is that relevant to the smoking issue?

the relevance is that one ban (imposed by themselves) appears to be enforceable but another ban which is far more detectable is claimed to be unenforceable. if people tended to drink more while there was no smoke in the air i am sure they could enforce it very well. point is they are only worried about their profits, fair enough, but i dont know how they can say it is unenforceable with a straight face.

Originally posted by Cohiba
One final comment, and a point that I have yet to be seen anywhere... To the best of my knowledge there have been two (definitely one anyway) 'no smoking' bars opened in Ireland in the last 5 years. Both closed within 1 year. Says a lot, doesn't it?

it does say a lot, only a blanket ban will work. phasing in a % of bars is unfair to publicans who are forced to go nonsmoking initially. and a non-smoking area in a pub is like a non-urinating area in a swimming pool, fluid flows.
it is obvious why nonsmoking pubs were left empty and has been discussed over and over. common sense will tell you why they failed. just like how later opening hours led to more street violence and how 24hr opening would combat it greatly

DaithiSurfer · 14-10-2003 11:03am

Come on, if a punter causes trouble in a pub they are thrown out.
The publican has no problem doing this with reasonable force.
It should be no different for smoking.

14-10-2003 11:26am

I think the issue here is that the publicans don't want to have to throw them out as most of them are good customers.
The fear of disruption is a nonsense touted by them to cover up this fact.

well.... January is nigh

mm

DaithiSurfer · 14-10-2003 11:32am

if they break the law in the pub which could get the publican in trouble how are they good customers?

Imposter · 14-10-2003 11:52am

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
if they break the law in the pub which could get the publican in trouble how are they good customers?

I think it's more a case of the publican facilitating them in breaking the law because he'll make more money from them as they are good customers.

They are not causing trouble for the publican as long as noone complains. Also may I point out that a lot of publicans intend to ignore the ban. The penalties will have to be harsh and the possible get-out clauses for the publicans minimised if the ban is to work effectively.

The threat/application of undercover checks seems to be the best way to avoid the cop-outs that the publicans are going to give.

14-10-2003 11:55am

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
if they break the law in the pub which could get the publican in trouble how are they good customers?

They are good paying customers and the publican doesn't give a hoot about said law...

Dustaz · 14-10-2003 12:00pm

Originally posted by rubadub
it is obvious why nonsmoking pubs were left empty and has been discussed over and over. common sense will tell you why they failed. just like how later opening hours led to more street violence and how 24hr opening would combat it greatly

Is that you Michael? We only have it on Mr Martins Say-so that late opening had anything to do with street violence, and there are many who would argue vehemently with that point of view.

Why is it obvious that non-smoking pubs were left empty? In Italy there are both smoking and non-smoking places and they seem to manage just fine. Maybe the non-smokers here dont care about their health as much as they appear to from this thread?

Imposter · 14-10-2003 12:07pm

Originally posted by Dustaz
Why is it obvious that non-smoking pubs were left empty? In Italy there are both smoking and non-smoking places and they seem to manage just fine. Maybe the non-smokers here dont care about their health as much as they appear to from this thread?

Italian non-smoking 'places' are generally cafes or restaurants and it's not quite the same culture/attitude towards socialising as in Ireland.

DaithiSurfer · 14-10-2003 12:20pm

surely it could be checked in the same way that the measures and optics in a pub are checked now.
Random calls.
If the inspector arrives at a pub and sees someone smoking that the staff clearly can see then slap the publican with a fine that hurts real bad.
Or maybe do a 3 strikes and you lose your licencse.
It wont happen too often then.

ciaran.hickey · 14-10-2003 12:42pm

Also, yes, any right minded publican will throw you out if you bring your own drink into a bar....

Yeah why is it that you get thrown out of a bar if you bring in a drink from one pub to another in Dublin. I'm from Dublin myself but noticed in other countys in Ireland such as Donegal when you leave a pub they give you a plastic pint glass to bring to the next pub. It's an accepted thing up there and I have to say it was a damn good idea.

rubadub · 15-10-2003 12:00pm

Originally posted by Dustaz
Is that you Michael? We only have it on Mr Martins Say-so that late opening had anything to do with street violence, and there are many who would argue vehemently with that point of view.

many argue that 24hour opening will lead to less violence on streets, i agree. at the moment i see people already tanked up by 10pm, most people find the drunker you get the faster you can drink. they start to lash down booze which still has to take effect. then last orders are called and they go up and order a couple of pints or a triple for the road, they lash this down and hit the streets. THEN the final hours boozing hits in and the blackouts and fights occur. with 24hour pubs there is no last order tradition, when in countries with late open bars i noticed people (yes irish too) left as they were sobering up not tanking up before leaving.
in considering 24hr opening they said "we'll see how we get on with late opening till 12.30, if that goes well, we will see". point is it is not a simple matter of "do a half measure before the full" they missed the whole point. the first few weeks of 24hr opening would be mayhem but the novelty would soon wear off.

Originally posted by Dustaz
Why is it obvious that non-smoking pubs were left empty? In Italy there are both smoking and non-smoking places and they seem to manage just fine. Maybe the non-smokers here dont care about their health as much as they appear to from this thread?

i think they were left empty simply because most people have friends who smoke and want to go to drink with them. the nonsmokers are totally used to smoking pubs so have no real problem with going there. doesnt mean they wouldnt prefer all pubs to be nonsmoking. all the surveys i have seen say the majority do want a ban on smoking on all pubs. again the half measure cannot be compared to the full. maybe the non-smokers here dont care about their health as much as their friends

Cohiba · 15-10-2003 1:18pm

Yes, there is trouble on the streets, and yes, consumption of alcohol is a major factor. But as has been pointed out if every pub and club in the Country empties out onto the streets at the same time, there is bound to be some alcohol induced tension. What's our Governments solution to this? More Gardai on the streets? Of course not. The Intoxicating Liqour Bill of 2003.
Under the terms of this act, it is now illegal to be drunk in a pub. It is also illegal to be drunk and attempt to gain entry to a pub. And it is illegal for a Publican to allow you to become drunk in the first place, with fines and/or jail terms for all concerned!
Define drunk. If someone is 'drunk driving' they may have two pints consumed, so it could be argued that it is now illegal to drink more than two pints. And having noticed that i've gone off topic, i'll bring it all nicely together by saying that now if you want to smoke, or drink more than two pints maybe you should stay at home after January or run foul of the law!

A publican can only use reasonable force to stop people smoking so in fact his hands

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