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Am I missing something here???????

  • 07-10-2003 3:42pm
    #1
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Now maybe Im being a bit paranoid here, but someone have a
    look at this ad I found for a position being advertised...

    Im no genius by any means, but does anyone here (apart from
    the guy advertising) think that the person with the skills and
    experience they are looking for, be rewarded with a someway
    decent renumeration package..???

    Internet Security & Application support Engineer

    We have several internet base Net and call shops round Dublin.
    Presently we are looking for an Internet security and application
    support engineer for our Net and call shops.

    The Candidate should have strong demonstrable skill in Various
    Computer Operating Systems, Routing, Network administration,
    Server Management, Customer Support, Network Security such
    as Firewall and Network address Translation (NAT) along with
    Proxy, DNS and web server configuration including Name and IP
    base Virtual Hosting.

    Sound knowledge in mail server, web base mail server including
    MySql database oriented Billing, Radius and Authenticate Server
    configuration is essential. Deep knowledge and experience
    required on windows Active directory , Antivirus related software ,
    Restricting user access to download and install software on local
    computer including strong practical experience on LAN , WAN,
    Cable and Satellite Base Broadband Router , SNMP base Fast
    Ethernet Switch , windows XP , windows 2000 , Server based
    Linux and UNIX platform which are using on our Net shops.

    Candidate Should be responsible to upgrade our web site time to
    time with PHP and Mysql Database. He/she should provide in-
    house training to existing and new employee in order to solve
    common network problems and implement necessary steps which
    require to maintain a proper and fast Network connection.
    Maintaining organization mail, web mail, DNS, proxy, Web and
    Authenticate server including migrating one Network system to
    another will be part of his responsibility.

    Knowledge on Cisco Router and Switch, Sun-Solaris, Mysql
    database oriented Terminal, Radius and Authentication server
    along with INSAcall , Café Station, Voice over IP
    (VOIP) ,Microwave communication and satellite base Broadband
    system will be considered as an added advantage. Minimum
    Graduation in Computer science, Computer Engineering,
    Electronics Engineering or any related Field.

    Work Experience:
    More than 3 years working Experience on Linux, windows 2000
    and XP, UNIX, Cable and satellite base Broadband System , Cisco
    Router, Online system configuration and web base application.
    One years working experience of working in a busy internet
    café/callshop.

    Contract type :Permanent / Full Time
    Days per week : 6
    Hours per week : 40/45
    Start date :Immed
    Employer: ************ (removed to save embarrassement)

    Salary : 8.50 p.h. Euro


    Like WTF??????????????????????????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    This is working in an Internet Cafe? Am I Right?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    Yeah they mention it in the ad alright, but its not the one I thought it was..

    Tox


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,513 ✭✭✭Sleipnir


    8.50 an hour???????
    maybe if it was 8.50 a minute.
    And 6 days a week?
    If someone has ALL that experience then they will be plugged directly into the entire WORLD like the Lawnmower Man.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    Someone with all that experience could be on €80k+ a year ffs.. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,549 ✭✭✭The Brigadier


    You are looking at this the wrong way.....Yes the person described in the job is worth more than €8.50 an hour.

    But the job is being talked up, look at what somebody in an Internet cafe does, then decide what it is worth. (And I am not for one second knocking them)

    How much do you think somebody working in an internet cafe should be paid?


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    But they arent just looking for an internet cafe gimp to serve
    tea/coffee and reboot a PC if it crashes.. these are the people
    that you see normally when you walk into a net cafe, but you
    there have to realise that there are other people in the
    background that keep the whole lot up and running..

    Essentially they are looking for a systems admin/network
    engineer with a lot of knowledge in a wide variety of systems.

    Thats worth a lot more than 8.50 an hour no matter what anyone
    says.. and the descrption is fairly played up alright but some Joe
    is not gonna walk in off the street with experience in this areas,
    they will have had to be trained and/or worked in those areas
    specifically?

    Network Admin
    Windows OS
    Linux/Unix
    Broadband Routers
    Firewall Admin
    Web Admin
    Proxy/DNS/VOIP
    Cisco experience..

    With a minimum of a Degree in college...

    Like, c'mon there is no way you can justify paying €8.50 p.h
    for that sort of knowledge/certification...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭Eppie


    Look, people in general are woefully underpaid at the minute (for example myself), this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Actually what would be surprising is a job ad that offers a decent pay package.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    what do u work at Eppie?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 110 ✭✭Eppie


    i work in e-learning for a pittance, does anyone have a job for me?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    pm sent..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Cake Fiend


    I think someone showed me that same ad a while back. It's almost certainly a work permit jobbie (advertise some bullsh1t job with ridiculous requirements and pay, happen to 'discover' someone who fits the bill and just happens to need a particular job to get a work permit to stay in the country etc). I've seen it happen several times before (hell, I've helped come up with the ridiculous requirements once or twice).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭boo-boo


    If you saw that job on the FAS site then its a work permit scam,
    for an employer to get a work permit they need to advertise the job with FAS first - the amount of highly skilled J2EE developers wanted who need fluent Chinese or one of the Indian languages in the midlands / border area is AMAZING....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭marrakesh


    Out of Interest wtf is Sun Solaris needed for in an internet cafe ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭Emboss


    Originally posted by marrakesh
    Out of Interest wtf is Sun Solaris needed for in an internet cafe ?

    putting the choc chip in the muffin...obviously.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭Emboss


    Originally posted by ToxicPaddy
    Now maybe Im being a bit paranoid here, but someone have a
    look at this ad I found for a position being advertised...

    Im no genius by any means, but does anyone here (apart from
    the guy advertising) think that the person with the skills and
    experience they are looking for, be rewarded with a someway
    decent renumeration package..???

    Internet Security & Application support Engineer

    We have several internet base Net and call shops round Dublin.
    Presently we are looking for an Internet security and application
    support engineer for our Net and call shops.

    The Candidate should have strong demonstrable skill in Various
    Computer Operating Systems, Routing, Network administration,
    Server Management, Customer Support, Network Security such
    as Firewall and Network address Translation (NAT) along with
    Proxy, DNS and web server configuration including Name and IP
    base Virtual Hosting.

    Sound knowledge in mail server, web base mail server including
    MySql database oriented Billing, Radius and Authenticate Server
    configuration is essential. Deep knowledge and experience
    required on windows Active directory , Antivirus related software ,
    Restricting user access to download and install software on local
    computer including strong practical experience on LAN , WAN,
    Cable and Satellite Base Broadband Router , SNMP base Fast
    Ethernet Switch , windows XP , windows 2000 , Server based
    Linux and UNIX platform which are using on our Net shops.

    Candidate Should be responsible to upgrade our web site time to
    time with PHP and Mysql Database. He/she should provide in-
    house training to existing and new employee in order to solve
    common network problems and implement necessary steps which
    require to maintain a proper and fast Network connection.
    Maintaining organization mail, web mail, DNS, proxy, Web and
    Authenticate server including migrating one Network system to
    another will be part of his responsibility.

    Knowledge on Cisco Router and Switch, Sun-Solaris, Mysql
    database oriented Terminal, Radius and Authentication server
    along with INSAcall , Café Station, Voice over IP
    (VOIP) ,Microwave communication and satellite base Broadband
    system will be considered as an added advantage. Minimum
    Graduation in Computer science, Computer Engineering,
    Electronics Engineering or any related Field.

    Work Experience:
    More than 3 years working Experience on Linux, windows 2000
    and XP, UNIX, Cable and satellite base Broadband System , Cisco
    Router, Online system configuration and web base application.
    One years working experience of working in a busy internet
    café/callshop.

    Contract type :Permanent / Full Time
    Days per week : 6
    Hours per week : 40/45
    Start date :Immed
    Employer: ************ (removed to save embarrassement)

    Salary : 8.50 p.h. Euro


    Like WTF??????????????????????????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    I seen this myself yesterday i was assuming like others they were just talking the job up....dunnes stores pay more than this for rolling joints in the warehouse before a bit of packing/stacking


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭ToxicPaddy


    Originally posted by marrakesh
    Out of Interest wtf is Sun Solaris needed for in an internet cafe ?

    They may have some sort of Web based front end with an Oracle Database backend running on Solaris..

    A small Ultra 10 or Netra T1 box would run this easy enough if they upgraded it with a bit with memory...

    Or they may do hosting.. with some third party data centre and need someone who can look after the boxes out there..

    But all in all it seems to be a bit of a scam for a work permit..

    Complete load of b*llox if ya ask me.. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,264 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Theres lots of these mega spec jobs. I went for one a while even though I had about 50% of the spec, and they said I was overqualified and had too much experience. So basically the job spec is bull. Just ignore these kinda ads. Your only wasting your time with them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭Specky


    It's perfectly reasonable for the advertiser to exaggerate the requirements of the job 'cos most applicants will exaggerate their own capabilities anyway.

    Shame the guy who wrote the ad had such bad written English though....or maybe he was too busy fixing the froth machine to take any time over it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,264 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Originally posted by Specky
    It's perfectly reasonable for the advertiser to exaggerate the requirements of the job 'cos most applicants will exaggerate their own capabilities anyway.

    Shame the guy who wrote the ad had such bad written English though....or maybe he was too busy fixing the froth machine to take any time over it.


    They deserve who they get so...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I applied for this about 2 weeks ago for the craic. See if he was actually serious about the 8.50 ph or just chancing his arm. Heard nothing back.

    As someone said, he's trying to get an immigrant who he can pay peanuts and treat like ****, and justify hiring him by saying "None of the Irish applicants filled the Job Spec!". :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭Specky


    They deserve who they get so...

    ...with sprinkles


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Is it possible to report such a scam? How?
    Otherwise Irish people with these (or some of these) qualifications will never get jobs in this area.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,762 ✭✭✭WizZard


    Is it possible to report such a scam? How?

    I don't think so ,these go on all over the world where immigrant people need work permits. If nobody fills the job spec then they don't have to hire them, and then can go hire who they wanted to in the first place - and that person will work for peanuts.

    Basically, in Ireland we're not just competeing with each other for available jobs, we're also competing with people of other nationalities who can and will work for much, much less than we Irish will, and who seem to employers to be just as qualified as anyone else.

    Its crap, but thats just the way it is (tupac sings on...) ;)

    BTW, I would be partially qualified for this position, with experience (but not enough) in most of the security areas, and network admin (nets >=2000 pc), routers, NAT, etc.. And I would love the experience, it would be great for a graduate's CV, but nobody would do that kind of work for that money!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭Specky


    I hardly think this qualifies as a scam....no-one is being conned here, espcially if you take the ad at face value.

    If you go to buy a car and you tell the salesperson that you want the most fantastic car in the world, super fast, super slick, super sexy....but you've only got €1000 to spend, you 'might' get what you asked for.....but you probably won't.

    I don't see any real difference here. They've asked for an ideal but they've also stated what they're willing to pay so either:

    a. they have no idea what people cost, in which case they're going to find out pretty quickly ie no applicants for the job. They will still have a position to fill so they'll have to lower their expectations or raise the salary

    b. they know they aren't going to get all of what they want but have included a huge range of skills in the hope that they might get just one or two

    OK so this might be a work permit thing, but really? In an internet cafe? Hmmm....I doubt it somehow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by Specky
    I hardly think this qualifies as a scam....no-one is being conned here, espcially if you take the ad at face value.
    ...
    OK so this might be a work permit thing, but really? In an internet cafe? Hmmm....I doubt it somehow.
    I think if it is a work permit thing then it is a scam. It's time that employers who only want to pay peanuts and as a result have priced Irish/EU job-seekers out of these jobs are dealt with. If something is not done our education levels may be excellent but our unemployment rates will be sky-high as well. Everyone working in Ireland is replacable by someone willing to earn less. It doesn't mean it's a good idea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 914 ✭✭✭Specky


    Everyone working in Ireland is replacable by someone willing to earn less. It doesn't mean it's a good idea.

    That's not an idea, it's a fact.

    Ireland is an increasingly expensive place to be an employer.

    Salary demands continue to escalate, people are demanding more and more benefits/perks, employees are becoming less and less flexible, it's becoming almost impossible to get rid of staff if you don't want them but they won't leave.

    If you were out shopping and you saw a jar of coffee that was exactly the same as the stuff you normally bought, tasted the same, smelled the same, looked the same (and perhaps even gave you the odd impression that it was happy when you bought it) but cost half the price you'd buy it. I certainly would, and although there is a reasonable level of brand loyalty in the Irish market I reckon a hell of a lot of other people would buy it too, regardless of where it was made or what colour the packaging was.

    That's the choice a lot of employers are facing with staff. It is costing more and more just to be in business these days so any opportunity there might be to reduce costs or to increase resources without excessively increasing costs has to be explored.

    Now I'm not advocating a free for all so you auction off jobs to whoever turns up with the lowest salary demand regardless of who those people are. There has to be a degree of fairness in the system. But there also has to be a bit of realism.

    Salaries have gone through the roof here in the last few years and people just aren't willing to do menial work anymore (let's define menial here...I define menial as the nuts and bolts work that makes the country work, ie cleaning, labouring, cooking, serving etc). Ironic that these are just the sorts of jobs that emigrant Irish did all over the world, often illegally when the shoe was on the other foot...

    Anyway, you want to come down hard on the employer for trying to keep his business afloat. I'd rather come down hard on the government for holes in legislation, lack of support for small businesses who try to remain compliant and lack of penalties on large businesses that break the rules. Also sluggishness in not sorting out the banking and insurance systems in this country which both contribute hugely to the cost burden on all businesses here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by Specky
    Now I'm not advocating a free for all so you auction off jobs to whoever turns up with the lowest salary demand regardless of who those people are. There has to be a degree of fairness in the system. But there also has to be a bit of realism.

    Salaries have gone through the roof here in the last few years and people just aren't willing to do menial work anymore (let's define menial here...I define menial as the nuts and bolts work that makes the country work, ie cleaning, labouring, cooking, serving etc). Ironic that these are just the sorts of jobs that emigrant Irish did all over the world, often illegally when the shoe was on the other foot...

    Anyway, you want to come down hard on the employer for trying to keep his business afloat. I'd rather come down hard on the government for holes in legislation, lack of support for small businesses who try to remain compliant and lack of penalties on large businesses that break the rules. Also sluggishness in not sorting out the banking and insurance systems in this country which both contribute hugely to the cost burden on all businesses here.
    Now I agree with what you've said but look at the advertisement again and you'll see no 'realism' in the renumeration being offered for the job.

    No I don't want to come down hard on the employer. I think it's everyone's fault. Most people are generally selfish to some extent. When this means getting the best-paid or best conditions in a job then potential employees will try and find this. Similarly when employers can hire people to do the same job for less money of course it's in their advantage.

    However I do come down hard on employers when they deliberately go out of their way to circumvent employment laws and trying ot get cheap labour in this way.
    <off-topic>
    Your above points on the cost of doing business in Ireland is also as a result of selfishness but I blame publicans, shopowners, insurance companies etc. combined with people who are quite happy to complain but do nothing to actually change the situation as well as the governments role in it all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,264 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    8.50 euro is about 6 punts an hour. For a 6 day week?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Evac101


    <EDIT> Wish I'd read the second half of Specky's post before I wrote this *blush* </EDIT>


    Specky, I hate to quible with your 'increasingly expensive' analysis but I can say for a fact that within the IT industry employers have been able to drastically REDUCE payrates on average over the last three years due to the IT sector crash and a job market packed to the gills with experienced IT staff and recent college graduates competing for very few jobs.

    Thankfully there seems to be the inklings of a change at the moment in the market but nevertheless I know that the majority of the IT people I know are on less money now then they were 3 years ago - despite the increase in experience/skills which those years have brought them.

    On the other hand, while I find the original subject of this thread underhanded, I don't feel that any Irish person can complain too much about such practices - we've been the beneficiaries of similar ones in other countries far too many times to get snotty when it happens here.

    BTW RicardoSmith - the wage specified in that ad works out roughly the same as the payrate in HP - and loads of us work 6 day weeks here:(


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 93,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    40-45 hours (lets ignore the EU 37.5 hour/overtime etc. )
    =€340 - 382.50 pw - Last time I checked that was the half-day call out rate for a Cisco bod, not a cisco guru but someone who could phone the guru from the clients site.
    48wk year => €16,320 - €18,360

    Just out of curiousity - how can BMW companies justify a need for Foreign langagues.

    There is not an IT skills shortage here, but if you aren't prepared to pay the market rate, you will always have trouble attracting skiled workers in any sector. - surely FAS or whoever have lists of average salaries and identify if someone is offering way under the average..

    Unfortunately loopholes work both ways, yes we could get cheap skilled labour but then there is less incentive for locals to acquire these same skills and after a while the industry won't be self sustaining.

    Had that job offer stated that they offering a first job to someone who may have had experiance but no previous employment then if would have made some sense, to get someones feet on the first rung of the job ladder..

    PS. If they do attract someone, they might be worth poaching ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,264 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Originally posted by Evac101
    [BBTW RicardoSmith - the wage specified in that ad works out roughly the same as the payrate in HP - and loads of us work 6 day weeks here:( [/B]

    Doing what?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Evac101


    I do support for a large British company (outsourced their support to HP) and deal with everything from mobile phone purchases to AD and NT domain administration, network diagnosis and server/services troubleshooting - and everything in between. Quite a number of the people on my desk have MCP/MCSE and or CCNA's and we're all on that rate for the work, with no sick leave either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭marrakesh


    You would seriously want to get a new job Evac101 that pay stinks of rubbish..

    Judging by that salary u are been ridden badly up the ass... Keep on the look out but ur probably better off moving to Unix as MS aint worth a ****e at the moment..

    Too many MS people in market it seems to be a case of upskill change profession or else froget about getting a job..

    Even in a longterm think about the fact that most admins get paid a maximum 55k to 60k (unix heads) id presume ms to be average of 10k less than that figure above. U gotta ask urself can i get that nice house in avoca avenue with those wages..

    No impossible so upskill or become self employed. I am choosing the later because i have my heart set on a property on avoca avenue...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Originally posted by Evac101
    I do support for a large British company (outsourced their support to HP) and deal with everything from mobile phone purchases to AD and NT domain administration, network diagnosis and server/services troubleshooting - and everything in between. Quite a number of the people on my desk have MCP/MCSE and or CCNA's and we're all on that rate for the work, with no sick leave either.
    Either you enjoy what you do, or you think you won't get anything else.

    Sounds like crap work. Sick pay is touch and go though, some places do pay, some don't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭Evac101


    Fiance-type has recently started her own business as a contract Office Manager/Bookkeeper and is renting my weekends and evenings out also while I stick it out in this job for dependable income.
    Hopefully, in the long term, this will translate into a more full time option and since she's specialising in small businesses for her market it means that I'm being subbed to people who will never become a target market for Dell/HP/etc.

    Or thats the hope at least:) On the subject of Unix..*sigh* I've spent god knows how long (since DRDOS, however long ago that was) developing practical skills in Microsoft products and tbh I don't fancy developing a whole new skillset. That said, I may well have to.

    Finally, on the subject of Avoca Ave, heh - I want to move back to the south of the country anyway (Waterford area) when it comes to building a house so I'm not too worried on that score (still €95k for a three bedroom house there don'cha know).


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