The Catholic - Irish Identity.

mike65

Saw a piece in todays Irish Times which got me wondering.

The paper related how a Guardian piece by Julie Burchill which made passing reference to the St Patricks day parade in London
had enraged a reader who has accused Burchill of being anti-Irish.

The interesting aspect is that the offending section, quoted below, makes no reference to the Irish but does to the Catholic church, so the complainant seemed to belive Irish and Catholic are indivisible. So the question is do you view being Catholic as an intergral part of being Irish?

It gets worse. Also expecting to lose its £140,000 annual ALG grant are Carers London, the capital's only support organisation for those extraordinary people who look after sick or disabled relatives, rather than sticking them in what is amusingly known as a "home". At the same time, proving that the ALG is an equal-opportunity discriminator, Frontline, which helps homeless black Londoners, issued redundancy notices to its staff on being told that its grant was to decrease from £99,000 to £60,000 this year, and to £21,000 the next. While the Working Women's Crack Project bagged both an award and £8,000 to aid the drug-addled whores of Lambeth. But don't mind me, I'm just jealous!

Whatever, let's hope the modest amount the ALG saves on the OEDA grant will be well spent by being put towards the likes of London's St Patrick's Day parade. Defence of a worker's right not to be killed by his job versus the celebration of a religion that condemns contraception, abortion, divorce and the right of a woman to be a priest... Difficult one, innit?

Mike.

sunbeam

I haven't seen the piece in the Irish Times, but wonder if previous comments by Ms. Burchill also contributed to the reader's rage:

"Oooo, a football fan!" said the nice lady at the M&S cash desk as I stepped forward with some £75-worth of Union Jack towels the day before the England-Brazil match. "Oh no," I replied pleasantly. "That's a game played by imbeciles for the benefit of cretins. No, I'm just a patriot who's taking advantage of the fact that, for the first time in more than 30 years, we're allowed to display the flag of our country without being visited by the touchy-feely thought police and accused of incipient fascism. Of course, if one had during that time shown the flag of a country that really did support fascism when it was a threat, such as Japan, Germany, Eire or most Arab countries, not only would one not be called upon to pull it down, one might also be given a local government grant and congratulated on 'celebrating diversity'.

"Who can forget the recent example of Mayor Livingstone, who contributed hundreds of thousands of pounds of Londoners' money to celebrate Irishness last St Patrick's Day? To celebrate, that is, almost compulsory child molestation by the national church, total discrimination against women who wish to be priests, aiding and abetting Herr Hitler in his hour of need, and outlawing abortion and divorce. What a hero of socialism!"

The gist is this. I like a lot of flags: I've got a Cuban flag in my front room, and I wear the flag of the USSR, beaten into silver by the brilliant Argentinian jeweller Jorge Hadad, on my finger and my wrist. I can think of many occasions when I've briefly flown the flags of Israel and India from my window, in support of those countries' brave, secular stands against monotheistic tyranny (not for too long, obviously, because I'm a coward). Similarly, I'd never fly an Irish, German, Iraqi or US flag, because what I don't like about those countries far outweighs what I do. That doesn't prevent anyone else from flying them here, being as relatively tolerant as we are, any more than my patriotism stopped me from smiling at the spontaneous celebrations of Turks in north London and Koreans in Soho.

But to get back on topic the short answer is no I do not believe that being Catholic is an integral part of being Irish, though it once may have been so.

Victor

I think she has issues, that or is being deliberately provocative or is a Colonel Blimp type on a cocaine and speed binge.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,744935,00.html
"I can think of many occasions when I've briefly flown the flags of Israel and India from my window, in support of those countries' brave, secular stands against monotheistic tyranny (not for too long, obviously, because I'm a coward)."

Is Irish inherently Catholic or vice versa, I don't think so. 30, 40, 50 years ago maybe.... but then good old England had it's nice little empire back then aswell didn't it?

mike65

I know Burchill is a frequently laughable socialist-facist-straight-gay-whatever-I-am-this-week hack
but thats just the jumping off point its the Irish-Catholic thing I'm interested in.

Mike.

simu

No, Catholicism isn't an integral part of being Irish.

This was also true in the past:

Quick examples that spring to mind: pre-Christian Ireland - the builders of Newgrange etc were pagans

And more recently: Many of those who were involved in the fight for Home Rule, Irish Independence, the revival of the Irish language and of Irish literature and so on were Protestants.

Burchill's just being lazy - she clearly has little understanding of the complexities of Irish identity.

mike65

Originally posted by simu
Burchill's just being lazy - she clearly has little understanding of the complexities of Irish identity.

Everyone else do not bang on about Burchill stay on topic please!


.

simu

It's not all that off topic - journalists such has her have huge influence over how people interpret news events.

If you're trying to figure out if Irishness and Catholicism are inextricably linked, it's worth finding out where these ideas came from and how they are carried on and reinforced, even up to this day!

AngelofFire

Irish=catholic english=protestant are just stupid analogies created by a narrow minded form of nationalism. im not a catholic myself however i am no less an irish man than the next person. i cant believe the ignorance of some people. irish nationalism was invented by protestants with the united irishmen. The main man involved in the revival of the irish language douglas hyde was anglican.

sanvean

I don't think anybody of my age group (24) would be see a link between Catholicism and Irish identity. Perhaps reacting against it, but only to a little degree. Perhaps if I was ten years older it may have had more of an effect.

Having said that, there's no doubt that the Catholic Church, especially up until (say) 1990 and from (especially) around 1826 was extremely important in developing whatever it is to be Irish nowadays. For better or worse.

(sorry Mike, but I have to question her understanding of Dev aiding Hitler. Don't get me wrong, I despise Dev, but didn't he help the allies in some way - something to do with blocking communications etc - in the run up to the landings? And returning downed pilots instead of imprisoning them, which they did to the Germans?)

Victor

Originally posted by sanvean
And returning downed pilots instead of imprisoning them, which they did to the Germans?)

Pilots (invariably American) landing on the west coast were sent across the border as this was usually a transit flight. Pilots (invariably British or German) landing on the east coast were interned as this was usually a combat flight

Absolam

I think perhaps the orginal quote could actually be taken as St Patricks Day celebrates a Catholic Saint...it's only in relatively recent times (mainly due to American influences) that St Patricks day has become a celebration of being Irish.....

sceptre

Originally posted by Absolam
I think perhaps the orginal quote could actually be taken as St Patricks Day celebrates a Catholic Saint

And saints Andrew, David and George were well known badass mofo Protestants:D.

(St George I just don't get. I mean, the guy never even took a day trip to Blighty)

Absolam

Maybe that's also part of it..the Catholic Patron Saint of Ireland gets a parade in her country, maybe she feels a little left out? After all the wonderful things the British did for us colonials around the world and her own country can't work up the enthusiasm for their own patron saints parade?