Luas (Clueless!) on Stilts

Bee

Answer me this?

The Luas is going to cross the Mad Cow roundabout via stilts!

Unless we are going to have a Luas Roller Coaster (A roller coaster might actually carry more passengers!) Are there any rail anoraks or engineering types that could kindly advise of the gradient and especially the length of track that shall now have to be ripped up either side of the Mad Cow that is required to get the thing to ascend high enough and then safely low enough without the Roller Coaster effect!

Looking at other countries I would guesstimate approx 4km..

What say you?

Bee

Victor

Very little difference, coming from the city, you simply divert the Luas further along the motorway (towards Tallaght) and then cross. It might require the platforms and some of the on / off ramps to be repositioned. (See sketch).

Trams can climb (short) steeper slopes (Steven's Lane, Heuston Station comes to mind) than trains and trains can certainly manage 1:50.

The Phoenix Magazine has an excellent cartoon about it that I'll scan.

Epitaph

Has anyone ever seen War of the Worlds?

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
Trams can climb (short) steeper slopes (Steven's Lane, Heuston Station comes to mind) than trains and trains can certainly manage 1:50.

There is a specification for this somewhere on the web I saw it recently but have no idea where.

Originally posted by Epitaph
Has anyone ever seen War of the Worlds?

Eh? You mean the cartoon?

Originally posted by Victor
The Phoenix Magazine has an excellent cartoon about it that I'll scan.

Cartoon attached from http://www.phoenix-magazine.com

De Rebel

Please stop saying stilts, it sounds so stupid

Victor

Originally posted by De Rebel
Please stop saying stilts, it sounds so stupid

Yes, just associate it with Seamus Brennan any time you hear it, he came up with it.

Andrew Duffy

The term "freeway-on-stilts" was used to criticise the new San Fransisco-to-Oakland Bay Bridge when it was proposed a few years ago. Maybe Brennan is subconsciously deriding the idea already.

dmeehan

Originally posted by Victor
There is a specification for this somewhere on the web I saw it recently but have no idea where. Eh? You mean the cartoon? Cartoon attached from http://www.phoenix-magazine.com

classic

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1598585?view=Eircomnet

Brennan asks critics to 'give Luas a chance'
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 2nd October, 2003

The Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, has appealed to critics of Dublin's light rail project to "give Luas a chance".

Speaking at a conference on logistics in Dublin Castle this morning, Mr Brennan said he had been assured by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) that Luas would be "delivered on time and within the overall contract budget.

"The Luas light rail system will be enormously beneficial in reducing the numbers of cars coming into the centre of Dublin," Mr Brennan said.

"Today I would like to appeal to all those committed to improved transport services in Dublin to give the Luas a chance," he added. Mr Brennan went on to say that congestion was a issue that must be addressed as a "matter of urgency".

"Congestion severely hinders the efficiency of public transport and dilutes the beneficial impact of major improvements on the roads network.

"The Dublin Port Tunnel, Luas, completion of the M50 and other major road networks and the proposed Metro link from Dublin Airport to the City Centre will combine to offer relief," he said. "They are not a cure-all but they will help".

It emerged this morning that Mr Brennan has been told that raising the Tallaght Luas line "on stilts" over the M50's Red Cow roundabout could take up to two-and-a-half years and cost at least €50 million.

In its response to Mr Brennan's request to consider the proposal, the RPA warned the timescale would be "significantly increased" if a new public inquiry had to be held. It said there were two options - either to delay the opening of the Tallaght line, or at least the part that would be affected, until the work was done, or to complete the line as planned and then close it later.

In a document obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, the agency notes a feasibility study by consultant engineers O'Connor, Sutton, Cronin had concluded that each of these options were "unpalatable".

Speaking at a conference on logistics in Dublin Castle this morning, Mr Brennan said he had been assured by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) that Luas would be "delivered on time and within the overall contract budget."

On time would be mid-2003 wouldn't it?

dmeehan

The term "freeway-on-stilts" was used to criticise the new San Fransisco-to-Oakland Bay Bridge when it was proposed a few years ago

The bay bridge was built in the 60's wasnt it?

Victor

Originally posted by dmeehan
The bay bridge was built in the 60's wasnt it?

There are a couple of different bridges.

http://www.calaverascement.com/projects/proj.htm

The Bay Bridge - 1934
During the depression, the construction of the Bay Bridge from San Francisco to Oakland kept the Lehigh Southwest plant running with the single largest order for cement in its then 25-year history. Lehigh Southwest cement was used in the construction of the giant center anchorage and the deep-water piers upon which the towers for the bridge rest. Just one of the piers in the bridge contains 17,724 cubic yards of concrete, and is equivalent in height to a 48-story building. Before the bridge, people relied on ferries to cross the bay.

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-500171376-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews-2FIreland-2FAll-Ireland.asp

Trouble looms for Brennan over Red Cow Luas plan
28/09/03 00:00
By Niamh Connolly

Transport minister Seamus Brennan's suggestion that a "bridge-on-stilts" be built across the Red Cow roundabout for the Tallaght Luas line in west Dublin, conflicts with arrangements agreed six years ago for the controversial junction.

The arrangements were later approved by an official inquiry and the cabinet.

Official documents show that in March 1997 measures were agreed to deal with anticipated difficulties at the Red Cow roundabout. The matter was settled on the basis of a suggestion by the Dublin Transportation Office. This was accepted by all interested parties, including the Luas project team, the National Roads Authority and South Dublin County Council.

The 1997 plan envisaged the Luas service crossing the southern edge of the M50/ Naas Road interchange as would a car, and obeying traffic lights. Slip roads were to be provided. It was also agreed that access for buses and cars to the Luas station, as well as park-and-ride facilities nearby, would not be compromised.

As recriminations over delays and disruption associated with the Luas project intensify, opposition politicians are expected to demand that Brennan explain the basis for his "bridge-on-stilts" idea. Also, it is likely that the opposition will want to know why Brennan is departing from arrangements for the Luas project that were in place when former minister Mary O'Rourke was responsible for transport during the last government. Tensions between Brennan and O'Rourke may emerge as efforts are made to assign blame for problems with the Luas.

In 1998, an inquiry into the Tallaght-to-Abbey St Luas line, chaired by Judge Sean O'Leary, considered the Red Cow roundabout issue. The inquiry concluded that the proposed traversing of the M50 would not give rise to any reduction in the traffic-carrying capacity of the junction and should be approved.

Following Brennan's recent suggestion, the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said that it might not possess the legal power to build a bridge across the Red Cow roundabout. It has indicated that legal advice will be necessary as to whether the minister has the power to vary the current railway order.

This is the legal permission to build the light rail scheme which was the subject of the public inquiry under Judge O'Leary. Legal problems with any variation of the plan might further delay the opening of the Tallaght line until mid 2006 or early 2007.

Qadhafi

Here is what the latest version is going to look like with all the spagetti juntions.


The Irish Times
03-October-2003
for the times we live in
new crazy cow round a bout

Victor

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Here is what the latest version is going to look like with all the spagetti juntions.new crazy cow round a bout

Link? Quote?

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
Link? Quote?

Ah, I didn't see the Irish Times bit in the corner.

I did a check of it and find a few problems. I think the turning circle of the "cloverleaves" will be a bit tight, although they do have long lead-outs to allow acceleration. Crossing traffic will only meet twice on the entire junction (a full cloverleaf would also have four point where accelerating and decelerating traffic would cross).

a. Turnpike Road (Red Cow Hotel) will have traffic lights obstructing free flow for traffic from the city.
b. Where traffic from the city (going to Naas) meets traffic coming from Tallaght (going to the city), there will also be traffic lights (this junction hatched on map).
c. They would appear to be moving Luas from the side of the road back to the median.

http://members.boards.ie/victor/new_crazy_cow_junction4.gif

Colour code
Navy - Existing M50
Black - northbound traffic exiting the M50
Green - northbound traffic exiting the M50
Yellow - traffic from city
Pink - traffic from Naas
Grey - local roads
Pale Blue (dotted) - existing Luas route (under construction)
Pale Blue - suggested Luas route
White - disused road

I suspect this will not be the last draft of the junction.

Qadhafi

Crossing traffic will only meet twice on the entire junction (a full cloverleaf would also have four point where accelerating and decelerating traffic would cross).

a. Turnpike Road (Red Cow Hotel) will have traffic lights obstructing free flow for traffic from the city.
b. Where traffic from the city (going to Naas) meets traffic coming from Tallaght (going to the city), there will also be traffic lights (this junction hatched on map).
c. They would appear to be moving Luas from the side of the road back to the median.

In the above point could they just not solve them now by removing the proposed traffic lights on turnpike rd and naas/tallaght by putting one flyover over the other??

Victor

Originally posted by Qadhafi
In the above point could they just not solve them now by removing the proposed traffic lights on turnpike rd and naas/tallaght by putting one flyover over the other??

Luas is what complicates that bit - you potentially end up with "too many" levels of bridges. It is a matter of them going for the cheaper option.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/1665541?view=Eircomnet

EUR300m plan to upgrade M50, Red Cow roundabout
From:ireland.com
Tuesday, 14th October, 2003

The National Roads Authority (NRA) has backed a plan to upgrade the M50 motorway beginning with radical alterations to the notorious Red Cow interchange on the outskirts of Dublin. Tim O'Brien reports

The €300 million plan is to be incorporated into the current roads programme and is not expected to delay the opening of the Tallaght to Dublin city centre Luas link next year.

The NRA board meeting in Limerick last night heard comprehensive details of the scheme which also allows the Luas proceed unhindered by the necessary road works.

The scheme is less ambitious than complete free-flow or "spaghetti junction" style proposals initially considered, but caters for uninterrupted traffic flow on the major crossings such as that from the airport (M50) to the Naas Road (N7), and the Naas Road to Sandyford.

It will, however, incorporate a third lane on the M50 - but only in the heavily trafficked section between the airport and Sandyford. The key aspect of the scheme as far as the NRA was concerned was the cost, which has been scaled back from €700 million to €300 million.

Crucial to this is the authority's determination that it does not need to acquire additional land to achieve the "virtual" free flow for traffic crossing the Red Cow junction. Additional land had previously been costed at almost €100 million at the Red Cow interchange alone.

The authority has also determined it can build the extensions in phases - phase one incorporating the Red Cow works and a section of the third motorway lane between the Palmerstown N4 junction and the Red Cow interchange. Other phases will involve the redesign of existing junctions and the extension of the third lane. The €300 million is to be spread over five to seven years costing €50 million or less per year.

NRA corporate affairs spokes- man Mr Michael Egan said the board had affirmed its support for the solution but warned it could still be undermined. The authority was not happy with current arrangements to access a park and ride facility for Luas which would involve cars travelling between the Red Cow interchange and Newlands Cross.

However, Mr Egan said the planning was to "now go ahead on the basis that the outstanding issues can be agreed". He said the scheme could happen "with the Luas on stilts or on the ground".

The scheme is to be the subject of a new Environmental Impact Assessment and a new motorway order and the NRA hopes to publish this documentation early next year with a construction start early in 2005.

Mr Ger Hannon of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said the agency was aware of the plan and accepted the junction could be rebuilt without disruption to Luas. "Since 1997, the RPA knew the junction was in trouble. We don't cross the roundabout, we go south of it. We knew the NRA would have to do something and we are perfectly au fait with that."

A spokesman for the Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, also welcomed the news of the plan last night. "The Minister's desire is to see a solution to potential conflicts on the junction," he said.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/1664896?view=Eircomnet

Red mist goes green as 'Mad' Cow gets a flyover
From:The Irish Independent
Tuesday, 14th October, 2003
Treacy Hogan

A €300m spaghetti junction for the Red 'Mad' Cow Roundabout and extra lanes on the gridlocked M50 motorway were given the green light last night.

But the up-or-down saga of the Luas is unresolved.

The decision taken at a board meeting of the National Roads Authority means that roads are going up in a dramatic series of UK-style "cloverleaf" flyovers and loops on three levels at the roundabout at a cost of €37m alone.

But the board raised serious concerns about the impact of Luas on traffic at the Red Cow Roundabout and asked consultants Ove Arup to carry out another report on this issue.

Despite these concerns voiced at the NRA board meeting in Limerick yesterday the plan will be designed on the basis that Luas remains on ground level - but can be changed if it has to go up on stilts.

And the NRA board also demanded a special €15m flyover bridge be built linking Monastery Road with the Luas park and ride site on the far side of the Naas road to prevent motorists getting caught up at the Red Cow Roundabout.

Under the plan, approved yesterday, the NRA hopes to publish an environmental impact report and motorway scheme next March. Work is then due to start in March 2005 and completed two-and-a-half years later.

The first phase involves:

* A new three-tier flyover interchanges at the Red Cow Roundabout.

* A similar interchange at the congested N4 roundabout at Palmerstown/Lucan where the M50 dissects the Dublin-Galway/Sligo road.

* A third lane in each direction on the M50 between the two roundabouts.

mollser

It will, however, incorporate a third lane on the M50 - but only in the heavily trafficked section between the airport and Sandyford.

Classic!

Someone should tell the boyos that the traffic is light on the rest of the M50, cos it doesn't exist yet :rolleyes:

When they finally built the final leg, whats the bets they'll be proposing a third lane on that within a year of it opening as well?? Cos 'traffic volumes exceeded our predictions' - haven't heard that one before!

Victor

I did some MS painting, this is what they should do at the Red Cow - completely freeflow, but add pedestrian and cyle bridges.

silverside

victor,

the turning circle on the green and pink roundabouts look very tight - Are they meant to be for vehicles?

Andrew Duffy

Better than proposed, but it would need land acquisition, and it still involves fast-lane off ramps to go East-South and West-North. That said, those are the same lanes you'd be in for the same changes on a roundabout.

Victor

Originally posted by silverside
the turning circle on the green and pink roundabouts look very tight - Are they meant to be for vehicles?

Oh I realise, my sketch is quite "rough" but apparently it can be managed (based on the diagram in the Irish Times, presumably based on something from the NRA / DOT).

You would be talking about a similar turning circle to the MAudlins interchange at Naas, with a long acceleration carriageway after the turn.