New Jet for Bertie and Co

bloggs

New €8.4m jet to replace Beech King

The Government has announced they will spend €8.4m on a new Bombardier Learjet, which is expected to be ready in December.

It will replace the 23-year-old Beech King Aircraft presently in use.

Around 50% of the new Government jet will be made in Belfast.

Speaking on behalf of the Government, Defence Minister Michael Smith says the new jet will be an essential element in assisting the Government in the increased demand for official transport during our Presidency of the EU next year.

from www.examiner.ie

Looks like silly things like Hospitals and Education can be put on the back burner. What's wrong with Bertie and Co getting a flight like the rest of us on a comerical jet?

Qadhafi

Smith TD STOLE this money out of the savings from troop cut numbers.

Then he cancelled a tender for 5 medium heli's which we need for S&R (Search and Rescue).


They could have rented a airplane for the 6 months !!!



MAFIA government !!!

gandalf

Yep why buy it !!! I agree with you given the current conditions they could have rented it for the 6 months, probably at a very favourable rate (anyone know how much it is to rent a jet like this for 6 months to a year ?).

Ah well it could be worse they could be planning to put the Luas on stilts over the Red Cow Roundabout !!! (oh wait they are !!! LOL)

Gandalf.

Sparks

Forget "Why buy it", why have it?
The UK, with a lot more money and resources than us, don't use private air transport as much as we do. They use BA and other civil airliners. Hell, unless you're a senior civil servant, you don't even get a first class seat!
So why do our guys get a private jet? Maybe because they know if they ever got on a plane with some of us plebs, they'd be in for a fair amount of earhole abuse at best?

bloggs

Originally posted by Sparks
Forget "Why buy it", why have it?
The UK, with a lot more money and resources than us, don't use private air transport as much as we do. They use BA and other civil airliners. Hell, unless you're a senior civil servant, you don't even get a first class seat!
So why do our guys get a private jet? Maybe because they know if they ever got on a plane with some of us plebs, they'd be in for a fair amount of earhole abuse at best?

Bertie wants to compete with the King of Swazyland or something?

sharkman

Wont a Learjet be a BIT small for thet fat fool Harney and all her chocolates , Would need a C-5 galaxy or Starlifter I thought !


Let her know how you feel (or just have a laugh)

http://www.maryharney.ie/

solice

this is yet another example of an extreme mismanagment of funds. i for one think that the likes of bertie, cha, and harney should be made fly with ryanair.

star gazer

Wont a Learjet be a BIT small for thet fat fool Harney and all her chocolates , Would need a C-5 galaxy or Starlifter I thought !

ouch, you're not pulling your punches are you.
I think it isn't a bad thing to have a couple of jets. This is corporate ireland and our ministers should be on a level with their corporate counterparts from all our american multinationals,based here. A bit of national pride.
I know there are hospitals and schools to be protected (financially) but for health in particular, the problem seems to be no longer funding €9 billion, it seems to be reform. No matter how much money we throw at health someone will always be able to make a (guilt-tripping) case for more.

beezkneez

its a terrible argument and one that keeps coming back.
i think berties dead right. for a small island such as ireland who need to keep up good relations with other countries to maintain our economic growth we need our own plane. as the government of our country would you really like to see them flying commercial with everyone else, it would make us a country (one of the most wealthy in europe) look like crazies.
the health system is in a mess but in my opinion that shouldnt mean that we should spend all the money on repairing it. no matter how much money we spend on it, irish people wont be happy. we have to spend money to make money and if that means buying a plane then so be it.

star gazer

that was some coincidence, beez.

bloggs

Originally posted by beezkneez
its a terrible argument and one that keeps coming back.
i think berties dead right. for a small island such as ireland who need to keep up good relations with other countries to maintain our economic growth we need our own plane. as the government of our country would you really like to see them flying commercial with everyone else, it would make us a country (one of the most wealthy in europe) look like crazies.

Of course, what was i thinking, surely we can't have Bertie "man of the people" Ahern traveling even Business Class with the rest of us scum!

Bertie as the 'greatest' leader of our country must not demean himself by flying a comerical jet (like other world leaders give a damn).

I would actually have more respect for Bertie if he flew Aer Lingus or the like, as it would be an endorsment of our national airline.

Nah Bertie and his ilk (Mary and Charlie) think they are much better than the rest of us. The only time you would see Bertie on a bus or train, or commerical jet is during election time, when he wants to be seen as a 'man of the people'. Makes me sick!

Kell

My thinkin has always been this on said topic-

Bertie and others are our elected representatives, put there to do our bidding and lead by example. Over the last x amount of years successive governments and particularly this one have tried to get people to "leave the car at home" and use public transport. What sort of message does it send out to the public then, when the current government basically says "public transport is in the toilet, hence we feel the need to buy a plane".

By not using public/lesser mode of transport, in a lead by example way, they are also saying "ah sure do as we do and not give a flying fúck where you're throwing your money and go and conjest the country with your cars". They are also saying "while the rest of the public services are in the toilet we are willfully squandering your money on shíte that we dont need, that does nothing for you guys save improve our image with the rest of the international community". It also says that they are a bunch of Mé féiners that dont really care what we think.

All politicians should be summarily executed in public and people who know what they are doing put in place.

K-

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Kell
What sort of message does it send out to the public then, when the current government basically says "public transport is in the toilet, hence we feel the need to buy a plane".

That reminds me of something I saw a while back on one of those behind the scenes at Heathrow Airport shows.
The president of Iceland was heading back home. No red carpets (he was driven right up to the plane), because as he put it, he's no different than anyone else and he took a regular flight back to Iceland (I can't remember what class he was in )
Our lot need to use a private jet to go to Sligo and open an off licence. Go figure.

Kell

Originally posted by Frank_Grimes
Our lot need to use a private jet to go to Sligo and open an off licence. Go figure.

Mmmnn- wasnt that a air-corps plane that under no circumstances should have been used for the purpose that it was? Ah, the power of back handers. If only I had my mitts in the public coffers.

K-

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Kell
Mmmnn- wasnt that a air-corps plane that under no circumstances should have been used for the purpose that it was? Ah, the power of back handers. If only I had my mitts in the public coffers.

K-

My mistake, it was. Maybe when they get their new jet they won't need to bothering the air corps anymore, they can visit as many off licences as they want!

Paddyo

What a lot of rubbish being spoken by some people here.

The new Jet is replacing the Beechcraft - which needs to be replaced.

The Air Corps will be flying the new plane.

The Beechcraft has not only been used by politicians and the like. It has also been used on many occasions for medical emergencies - like getting transplant patients to a hospital where an organ has become available.

If it costs 9 million to save a life then we should spend it.

Paddyo

beezkneez

if we put the money for the plane into health and education do you think people would stop moaning? not likely. the couple of people that a dialisis machine saves will of course be happy and the student who gets a college grant will happy.
my original point was that if we put the money into the plane, we will improve foreign relations and increase exports, meaning an increase in government funds which could add up to hundreds of times that of the plane which i feel makes the plane worth it.

paddyweb

http://www.paddyshamrock.com

Sparks

Originally posted by beezkneez
my original point was that if we put the money into the plane, we will improve foreign relations and increase exports, meaning an increase in government funds which could add up to hundreds of times that of the plane which i feel makes the plane worth it.

Bollocks. Big round hair ones in fact. We get investment here on purely economic grounds from large companies, the usual Irish tactic of trying to bribe the CEO doesn't work, if only because we can't afford the bribe.
As shown, ever so painfully, by large multinationals pulling out of Ireland for cheaper countries over the last few months.
(And by the way, if the UK does well without private jets, why would private jets be necessary?)

Originally posted by Paddyo
What a lot of rubbish being spoken by some people here.
The new Jet is replacing the Beechcraft - which needs to be replaced.
The Air Corps will be flying the new plane.
The Beechcraft has not only been used by politicians and the like. It has also been used on many occasions for medical emergencies - like getting transplant patients to a hospital where an organ has become available.

None of the above is true Paddy, just close enough to pass muster on a quick inspection.
The Learjet is not a replacement for the Beechcraft, as it can't land on shorter runways that the Beechcraft can land on. It's maintainance costs and fuel costs and pilot training costs are far higher. The air corps fly all state-owned aircraft. And the number of times that the beechcraft was pressed into service as an air ambulance could be counted on your fingers and still let you touch-type.

If it costs 9 million to save a life then we should spend it.

Excellent idea! So let's buy a dedicated air ambulance helicopter.
That will save far more than just one life.

Villain

Originally posted by beezkneez
if we put the money for the plane into health and education do you think people would stop moaning? not likely. the couple of people that a dialisis machine saves will of course be happy and the student who gets a college grant will happy.
my original point was that if we put the money into the plane, we will improve foreign relations and increase exports, meaning an increase in government funds which could add up to hundreds of times that of the plane which i feel makes the plane worth it.

Whats wrong with aer-lingus its partly state owned, why can't they use of those jets??

I reckon there a pack of tossers but I also bet the opposition would do the same there all wan*ers rather sit in comfort on their way to an EU meeting rather than have put the money into our health or infastructure

bloggs

Originally posted by beezkneez
if we put the money for the plane into health and education do you think people would stop moaning? not likely. the couple of people that a dialisis machine saves will of course be happy and the student who gets a college grant will happy.
my original point was that if we put the money into the plane, we will improve foreign relations and increase exports, meaning an increase in government funds which could add up to hundreds of times that of the plane which i feel makes the plane worth it.

Ha ha! This is the same excuse the king of Swaziland is using to buy his jet. Well more or less the same, he says he needs it to fly around the world looking for aid for his country. Hmmm you seem to be using much the same 'argument' for Bertie.

When we have a European standard of health care, a European standard of public transport, and a compitent government in office, i will then give my full blessing to them buying a private jet

star gazer

All politicians should be summarily executed in public and people who know what they are doing put in place.
Kell

Who do you want to replace them?

Bollocks. Big round hair ones in fact. We get investment here on purely economic grounds from large companies, the usual Irish tactic of trying to bribe the CEO doesn't work, if only because we can't afford the bribe.
sparks

Sometimes part of the selling point for locating is ireland, the package a business executive could see of Ireland might include seeing irish representatives coming off their own small jet. It looks better than the reps walking off a Ryanair flight looking tired and uncomfortable having paid a fiver for a cup of coffee and a tenner for a sandwich.
I absolutle agree that there should be a balance and if this government want to be seenas in touch with people they have to travel like the people of ireland some of the time. It may open them up to having disgruntled constituents giving them an earful, but they chose to be politicians, didn't they?

bloggs

Originally posted by star gazer
Who do you want to replace them?



Sometimes part of the selling point for locating is ireland, the package a business executive could see of Ireland might include seeing irish representatives coming off their own small jet. It looks better than the reps walking off a Ryanair flight looking tired and uncomfortable having paid a fiver for a cup of coffee and a tenner for a sandwich.
I absolutle agree that there should be a balance and if this government want to be seenas in touch with people they have to travel like the people of ireland some of the time. It may open them up to having disgruntled constituents giving them an earful, but they chose to be politicians, didn't they?

CEOs don't wait are airports for people, chauffeurs do!

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by star gazer
It looks better than the reps walking off a Ryanair flight looking tired and uncomfortable having paid a fiver for a cup of coffee and a tenner for a sandwich.

Nobody's saying they should have to get on a Ryanair flight.
Given what has been said in the thread so far and the state of the country in general at the moment, you shouldn't be worrying about how people look when they get off a plane.

Sparks

Originally posted by star gazer
Sometimes part of the selling point for locating is ireland, the package a business executive could see of Ireland might include seeing irish representatives coming off their own small jet.

Not a hope in hell. That'd be like trying to impress Bill Gates by lighting your cigar with a burning hundred-euro note

It looks better than the reps walking off a Ryanair flight looking tired and uncomfortable having paid a fiver for a cup of coffee and a tenner for a sandwich.

One, we said aer lingus, since it's the state airline, and two, most business class travellers don't get ryanair service. I've no problem with Bertie having a first-class seat on an aer lingus flight, since he's meant to be working during the flight. It's this notion of a learjet when half the hours it clocks up will be to openings of pubs that pisses me off.

star gazer

CEOs don't wait are airports for people, chauffeurs do!
bloggs

Ok, but one of the first questions they will ask will be how was your trip?

I'm not saying they would make a business decision solely on the fact we've got a gov jet, far from it, it would only make a small difference, but the impression would be better. i just think with an annual budget of around €30 billion plus a €9 million jet is reasonable.

Not a hope in hell. That'd be like trying to impress Bill Gates by lighting your cigar with a burning hundred-euro note Sparks

I didn't say we should try to compete with BG, although they did try to spend €50million instead. I'm just saying as part of a package to make us look a little more polished, it would be a sumbol that Ireland is doing well and is a good place to do business. i whole-heartedly agree that there are many more factors ahead of this one.

It's this notion of a learjet when half the hours it clocks up will be to openings of pubs that pisses me off.

If i thought bertie would be flying to open up pubs init i would say he could fly aer lingus and pay for his own ticket!

One, we said aer lingus
sparkes

that's right you did, sorry. A L is a debate for another day

Villain

Originally posted by star gazer

i whole-heartedly agree that there are many more factors ahead of this one.

Exactly so when bertie and his fools get there act together then maybe they could consider a new jet but not while our society is in the state it is at the moment.

star gazer

Exactly so when bertie and his fools get there act together then maybe they could consider a new jet but not while our society is in the state it is at the moment.
irish1

if we were governed on that premise, all the money we have would be poured into health to get those services right, but since they poured more money in they haven't got a decent return on the money, some would say they haven't even improved.
No, i think a balanced approach is required and although i'm not going to go protesting for the next government jet to be bought, it makes sense to me to get the plane.

Villain

Originally posted by star gazer
if we were governed on that premise, all the money we have would be poured into health to get those services right, but since they poured more money in they haven't got a decent return on the money, some would say they haven't even improved.
No, i think a balanced approach is required and although i'm not going to go protesting for the next government jet to be bought, it makes sense to me to get the plane.

Well I think Mismanagment is what you mean and your correct throwing bad money after bad is not a solution but there are some issues that can be resolved with money.

Victor

Originally posted by star gazer
I'm not saying they would make a business decision solely on the fact we've got a gov jet, far from it, it would only make a small difference, but the impression would be better. i just think with an annual budget of around €30 billion plus a €9 million jet is reasonable.

Remember this is a second jet on top of the existing Learjet.

Originally posted by star gazer
If i thought bertie would be flying to open up pubs init i would say he could fly aer lingus and pay for his own ticket!

AL doesn't do many internal flights anymore.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/1578198?view=Eircomnet

High-flying ministers grounded by EU inquiry
From:The Irish Independent
Monday, 29th September, 2003
Paul Melia

THE Government has stopped using Air Corps fisheries protection aircraft for ministerial travel - but only after an intervention by the European Commission.

The commission, which funded half the cost of the two CASA 235 Persuader planes, inquired whether the planes where being appropriately used after a row blew up over the use of one of them by Tanaiste Mary Harney.

The planes cost over €48m. Half the cost was met by the EU as the planes were bought for fishery protection purposes.

The ending of the use of the planes followed a row which blew up in December 2001 when Tanaiste Mary Harney used one of the aeroplanes to travel to Co Leitrim to open a friend's off-licence.

The director general of the commission's fisheries section wrote to the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources seeking information on the use of that plane.

The letter, sent two months after the controversy erupted, stated that the aircraft had been funded by the commission on the basis that it would be used for full-time fisheries protection.

The letter sought "detailed information" on the plane's use.

The aircraft was used 42 times for ministerial transport in 2001 and 33 times in 2000.

The Defence Forces report for 2002 shows the CASA plane was not used for ministerial transport at all during 2002 after the commission wrote to the Government seeking clarification on its use.

The letter from Steffen Smidt of the commission, released under the Freedom of Information Act, pointed out that the Irish authorities had told the commission that the plane would be "tasked and deployed on a full-time basis" for the enforcement of fisheries regulations. Funding was subsequently granted on that basis.

"Recently it has come to our knowledge that the CASA aircraft and additional equipment may not be used 100pc for the purposes your authorities had announced," the letter said.

"Consequently I must ask you to supply us with detailed information concerning the extent to which the material is actually used for the implementation of the control system."

A letter from the Irish authorities, dated March 1996, stated that "all equipment and resources" sought in a submission for funding would be "100pc" dedicated to airborne fisheries patrol.

"The objective of maintaining 100pc dedication of these resources to fisheries protection will continue to be met," the letter said.

However, hand-written notes on a copy of the letter state that the use of the word "objective" was "aspirational".

"This word 'objective' could/should be construed as meaning 'aim' or 'goal'," the note read.

"In no way was it ever indicated that CASA MPA would be 100pc dedicated to fisheries protection."

In a reply to the commission, officials from the Department stated that the "100pc objective" of using the aircraft for fisheries protection had not precluded its "periodic limited deployment" for other purposes, including search and rescue, security, or transport duties.

"Nor has such periodic deployment deflected from the overall full time delivery of fisheries protection service outputs and the continual enhancement of those outputs," the letter concluded.

Sparks

Wonderful. Isn't it a great feeling to have a government that has to be taken aside and given a spanking by the EU for blatent disregard for rules and abuse of EU funds? :rolleyes: