[Article] Seanad head should sit with Cabinet - FF

Victor

Looks like Mary "one report short of a decision" O'Rourke wants her seat in cabinet back.

Seanad head should sit with Cabinet - FF
From:ireland.com
Friday, 19th September, 2003

Fianna Fáil has proposed the leader of the Seanad should be given the right to attend Cabinet meetings.

The proposal is contained in a submission made by the party to the Subcommittee on Seanad Reform this morning.

The party suggests making the Seanad leader a Minister of State with the right to attend Cabinet meetings, a practice that saw the former PD Minister of State, Ms Liz O'Donnell, sit at the table.

Fianna Fáil points out that the Constitution permits up to two ministerial appointments to be made from the Seanad - "a provision that has rarely been availed of".

Fianna Fáil says the Seanad has functioned well as part of the State's parliamentary system. However, it makes a number of other proposals for change. These include a recommendation that the list of bodies who can nominate senators be extended to include Irish emigrant groups in Britain, the United States and Australia.

Fianna Fáil also proposes the creation of a "unified panel" of six university seats, in which the electorate would all be graduates from recognised third level colleges.

In addition, the party suggests that an additional five Seanad seats be created to provide representation from Northern Ireland "of a cross-community character".

Fianna Fáil also says the political parties "should have regard in their nominations to the need to improve gender balance".

The subcommittee has been hearing submissions throughout the week on proposals to reform the Seanad.

sceptre

Some of those proposals would require constitutional amendments.

I could well do without Mary O'Rourke back in cabinet. The Dail's a slightly better place without her.

Sparks

Originally posted by sceptre
Some of those proposals would require constitutional amendments.
I could well do without Mary O'Rourke back in cabinet. The Dail's a slightly better place without her.

Am I incorrect in the belief that the Taoiseach already has the right to select a senator as a Minister and therefore a member of the Cabinet?

sceptre

Originally posted by Sparks
Am I incorrect in the belief that the Taoiseach already has the right to select a senator as a Minister and therefore a member of the Cabinet?

No, you're totally correct.

Up to two senators can be members of the government (see Bunreach t na hEireann, article 28.7.2). The ministers don't even have to have a department - ministers without portfolio can be appointed (see Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act 1939 section 4).

Ministers of State can also sit at cabinet. Our much beloved little blue book gives the right of attendance to the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach but a number of additional Ministers of State have in the past been given this right (Pat Rabbitte from 1994, Bobby Molloy from 1997, Liz O'Donnell after Molloy resigned)

If they want Mary at cabinet, she'll have to be some kind of Minister (regular or of State) (unless they appoint her as Attorney General:rolleyes: or she joins the civil service and she skips the queue to become Secretary General to the government). The Alexis Fitzgerald debacle in 1981 probably won't be repeated, even though it probably wasn't unconstitutional.

Only two Senators have been appointed as full Ministers since 1937: Sean Moylan was appointed as Minister for Agriculture in 1957 after losing his Dail seat and being appointed to the Seanad and Professor Doodge (can't remember his first name) was appointed as a Senator by Garrett Fitzgerald in 1981 (he never served in the Dail) and was handed Foreign Affairs.

To be honest, I've no idea why the article mentions the right to appoint a Senate member as Minister at all. There's a restriction of two Senate members that can be made full Ministers and members of the government with the automatic right to sit at Cabinet meetings. Since the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act 1995 we're allowed up to 17 Ministers of State. All of them have to be Oireachtas members (Dail or Seanad, doesn't matter). They can appoint all 17 of them from the Senate if they want. They're not talking about making Mary a full Minister. They're talking about making her a Minister of State. There's no problem with that. Appoint her a Minister of State for nothing and give her the right to sit and be heard at Cabinet meetings under the Rabbitte precedent. Why bring up the reference to the two Ministers from the Senate right at all? Unless they want to make her a full Minister and actually put her in charge of something...:eek:

dahamsta

I was watching that subcommittee on the telly yesterday morning and I was totally surprised at how sensible and well-balanced most of the suggestions were. Not a knee-jerk reaction or shout at the telly from dahamsta the whole way through, it was a little odd. Well, except for when Mary was lishping her way through some inanity while carefully saying absolutely nothing of substance. Obviously I kicked the screen in when that happened.

adam

star gazer

Obviously I kicked the screen in when that happened.

with politics as it is today, maybe it would be more cost-effective to kick a pillow or something.
Shock, horror, did politicians start talking sense?
I think the best way for the seanaid to prove itself would be if it votes down a Dail sponsored piece of legislation. Putting Mary ORourke in cabinet will be just another cop out by Fianna Fáil for shafting her in the general election. Although she didn't help her own case by what she did as minister.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
Up to two senators can be members of the government (see Bunreach t na hEireann, article 28.7.2).

There are some restrictions on what portfolios they hold though.

Fianna Fáil also proposes the creation of a "unified panel" of six university seats, in which the electorate would all be graduates from recognised third level colleges.

The constitution already allows this to happen it's just internal politics between the universities stops it.

gurramok

An important amendment to constitution would be to allow the other 99% of the adult population the right to vote for whoever sits on the seanad other than leaving it to 'the graduates' and political appointees.

Seanad setup gives an impression like an unelected english House of Lords.

Talk about giving representation to people from northern ireland when they should start giving the public here a right to vote on who sits in the seanad
My good ole self dont even have that right to vote on it

Guess democracy does not count !

Victor

This put me onto it http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1118948#post1118948

http://weblog.techno-culture.com/2003/09/16.html#a2769

An integral part of that story, however, was that Ireland nearly lost this important and high-profile project when both the IDA and government tried to strong-arm eBay into going to a rural location (reportedly Athlone, in today's reports), something which drove them to a serious and nearly exit-stage-left level of annoyance and frustration.

And other things like them actually spending money in the Midlands. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114915

Or are thet really, really, really, really, really making sure shes the Westmeath TD next time round to be sure to be sure to be sure.

star gazer

how about this. Two seanaid seats for every county and city borough. It would be like the US version of things, we already have the population-representative house. That would mean 8 seats for Dublin city and council, four for Galway, two for Mayo etc. The Taoiseach could nominate five from Ulster, at least two Unionists. It doesn't fit fully with democratic ideals but it would enhance balanced regional development and finally take some of the cogestion out of Dublin. it could be a real chance to bring the government to account, mid-term. If they aren't doing the good job, they would lose control of the upper(?) house and have to enact agreed legislation. Politics might actually start to becmoe accountable. just a thought...

Victor

Aren't senate elections governed by law, not by the constitution?

Originally posted by star gazer
That would mean 8 seats for Dublin city and council, four for Galway, two for Mayo etc.

But isn't it a bit unfair for Leitrim (pop. 25,800) to have two and Dublin City (pop. 495,000) two?

star gazer

But isn't it a bit unfair for Leitrim (pop. 25,800) to have two and Dublin City (pop. 495,000) two?

Absolutely yes. There is no doubt that it would be almost as undemocratic as the present system. There isn't any point in having a second Dáil Éireann so proportional representation is out, unless you want to go down a very new form of democracy, two houses balancing out each others powers and keeping accountablilty to the fore (okay a bit outlandish). I keep in mind that Dublin has the great majority of central government functions, plus semi-state and private headquarters and that centralises power and focus on Dublin to a big extent. That was vital when unemployment levels were high in Dublin and the regions had subsidised farmers to keep the money rolling in. Now Dublin can be an uncomfortable place to live and work. Traffic jams cost time and nerves, house prices are daunting and the bottelnecks don't seem to be improving much at all.
I think Mary O Rourke has done a great service to the Seanad. She knows the workings of government and may yet implement some critical reforms to make the Seanad relevant. Even after her bath-tub decision-making style, i have to admit a grudging respect to a capable lady.

bloggs

Ughhh! Close down the Seanad, such a waste of space!

star gazer

Ughhh! Close down the Seanad, such a waste of space!
bloggs

But then where would David Norris, Joe O Toole and Shane Ross go?

Sparks

Originally posted by star gazer
But then where would David Norris, Joe O Toole and Shane Ross go?

Well O'Toole and Ross can go to RTE, they're so good at the self-publicity that we might as well harness it for good, and as for Norris, well it's about time he became president anyway.