is enda right

solice

is enda right, should the next payment of the "benchmarking" be frozen. 1.2 billion euro is due to be paid next year. enda wants to freeze the first payment in january of 500 million euro, is he right to do this?

ok, the payment to health workers has gone up but have we seen any improvment (however slight) in the health sector?
no we havent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so why should they get paid more for doing nothing more.

this problem is the same in education, policing and pretty much all the other public service sectors.

the idea of benchmarking was to bring the level of payment to public sector workers to the same level of the private sector. but there is one major flaw in this. while it is all well and good to bring equality among payment to all sectors, public sector workers are guaranteed jobs for life. when was the last time you heard of a teacher, doctor or any civil servant loosing their job. those in the private sector are not secure and it has been seen in recent years and particulary in the last month (over a thousand people lost their jobs in one day last month).
the rewads should be greater for those with higher liabilites, those whose jobs are not as secure as teachers and doctors.

of course one of the first payments in the benchmarking scheme went to the tds themselves. this i think is a very important point.
they have lined their pockets first.

so the question is, should benchmarking be re-negoiated and if so, what do we do?

star gazer

solice
ok, the payment to health workers has gone up but have we seen any improvment (however slight) in the health sector?

They also manged to find 30,000 more to pay in the health service and still managed to make it feel worse for all involved.

On the main thrust of the issue a serious problem is the old saying a deal is a deal. If Enda Kenny doesn't show himself to be an honourable man, why should we vote for his party? If it has to be done blame could go to the government for not fixing some tangible reforms.

bloggs

Originally posted by solice
is enda right, should the next payment of the "benchmarking" be frozen. 1.2 billion euro is due to be paid next year. enda wants to freeze the first payment in january of 500 million euro, is he right to do this?

ok, the payment to health workers has gone up but have we seen any improvment (however slight) in the health sector?
no we havent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so why should they get paid more for doing nothing more.

this problem is the same in education, policing and pretty much all the other public service sectors.

the idea of benchmarking was to bring the level of payment to public sector workers to the same level of the private sector. but there is one major flaw in this. while it is all well and good to bring equality among payment to all sectors, public sector workers are guaranteed jobs for life. when was the last time you heard of a teacher, doctor or any civil servant loosing their job. those in the private sector are not secure and it has been seen in recent years and particulary in the last month (over a thousand people lost their jobs in one day last month).
the rewads should be greater for those with higher liabilites, those whose jobs are not as secure as teachers and doctors.

of course one of the first payments in the benchmarking scheme went to the tds themselves. this i think is a very important point.
they have lined their pockets first.

so the question is, should benchmarking be re-negoiated and if so, what do we do?

I don't have a problem with people getting paid more. If people work harder or increase productivity then so be it.

The problem with BM is that it's give a flat rate to everyone (unionised) across the board. This is fundamentally flawed. We live in an economy which needs to be competitive not just on wage levels but on skill levels. If we give pay rises to people who don't deserve them we are making a morkery of the economy. Unions in my opinion have way too much power and their goal is to keep production low and wages high. Also as a tax payer, why should I have to pay for someone in a public sector job who isn't doing their fair share of work as someone who is working hard?

Get rid of BM it's a waste of tax payers money.

In regard to the Health Service, BM isn't goin to make it better, it needs to be complely over hauled. Close down the health boards and sack a few croonie hospital administrators. Employ some administrators from Europe to run our health service or priviative the whole thing. One way or another it has to go in it's current form.

Qadhafi

Productivity is all well and good and ireland needs some of its best people in the Government to make smart decisions so good wages are essential.However in the current economic environment the government should postpone payements for another year. While waiting set out real and tangible targets before the payements can be made, its all very subject to interpertation at the moment. Also deferring benchmarking would take some of the pain away from the forthcoming budget.

IronMan

The pay scheme is linked to productivity, which has not been properly implemented. A health service that has over 1.8 clerical workers to every bed is not an efficient health service. We have too many people employed in many areas of the public sector, and not enough in others, eg in education, nurses, doctors. This needs to be trimmed. But any political party that would dare to say this publically would be met with howls of anger from certain sections of the media, as well as many aspects of the public service. But it needs to be done. As for stopping the pay scale rise, well it was agreed upon. To not pay would result in strikes, union officals on radio etc. Its a good idea in theory, but unworkable in practice.
Oh sh** I actually agreed with IndaKenny/Fine Gael!

solice

yesterday bertie stood by the BM scheme and said it would be honoured. now for a country that is 2 billion already in debt can we really say that this is a sensible thing. no we cant. bertie is in a hole right now, and for the first time i can actually see him sweat.
on one hand he has to pay out or the country will grind to a halt with strikes and the like (i am in agreement, unions have too much power) but on the other hand bertie has no money to pay them with.

but it will happen, people lets not be surprised if taxes go up next year, i can already imagine it. the fella on Q&A the last night said that we have one of the lowest level of income tax in europe. i can envisage this going up and up and up. and then we have the situation where the public sector are paying there own wages and the private sector will be paying them aswell, more than ever.


(on a side note, i got to thinking, how many people here are public sector and how many here are private sector workers)

gandalf

Well eventhou I hate to say it I agree with Enda Kennys position on this. Given the current economic situation Benchmarking should be frozen and not reimpliemented until there is proper streamlining in the Public Sector.

That figure of 1.8 clerical workers to every bed in the Health Service (any link to that stat) is outragous if true and hopefully if they ever get around to impliementing the changes they will address this (yes I mean firing the useless wood working in the Health Boards).

The days of a job for life have gone. If you expect to sit in an office on your ar$e being paid by the taxpayer and do nothing then you should be canned. Any dealings I have had with the Civil Service in the last few years have been farcical and wholly unsatisfactory. If a business was run the way the so-called public service is, it would have gone bust years ago.

As for Bertie Ahern it has been quite obvious for a while that this man is not up to running a cornershop let alone providing proper leadership to a country in economic crisis.

Gandalf.

sixtysix

i think enda kenny has lost the bit god gave him. the notion that he proposes postponing a payment he has no control over thus alienating significant sections of the VOTING public-the civil servants- is political suicide.
does he seriously expect civil servants to vote fine gael, they would be like turkeys voting for christmas.
at this rate we are stuck with the ff/pd coalition forever

hallelujajordan

Originally posted by sixtysix
i think enda kenny has lost the bit god gave him. the notion that he proposes postponing a payment he has no control over thus alienating significant sections of the VOTING public-the civil servants- is political suicide.

Methinks Enda would say anything to get his face on the news . . . I think this is Enda's swansong. . . It's about time Fine Gael looked to provide some sort of sensible alternative to FF/PD. . . . instead of this BS which, I'm afraid play right into Berties hands . .

DMC

Isn't Enda Kenny seriously misguided that he and FG think benchmarking is the big issue?

I'm sure they are guffawing in Govt Buildings at this chihuahua attack, when there are so may other issues the opposition can lay body blows on Bertie and co, like Health, Laffoy and the smoking ban, to name but three.

Oh yes, Enda, the whole country is talking about benchmarking. Most of Joe Public would think that benchmarking is the Corpo renewing park seats.

Fine Gael stare into the abyss.

star gazer

but it will happen, people lets not be surprised if taxes go up next year, i can already imagine it.
solice

It has already begun. VHI and ESB price hikes have been given the go ahead. When two highly profitable companies are getting price increases one does begin to wonder.

Isn't Enda Kenny seriously misguided that he and FG think benchmarking is the big issue?
DMC

I guess it's a big issue for the civil servants who will be affected by it. Do they go without a seven percent increase or not? €1.2 billion is just a number but if you break it down into indirect taxation and service charges increases, it suddenly adds to the shopping bill and the cost of living. When VAT and excise duties go up, it will be a major issue. Nobody likes extra taxes and because borrowing is in essence deffered taxation, there is very little chance of everyone in the country not being affected in some way by the 1.2 billion cost.

bloggs

Bloody hell, the private sector is paying the wages of the public sector (in most cases), then the government give the pay rises, and let inflation run out of control, then to offset the inflation they give pay rises to the public sector (payed by the private sector - who in most cases aren't getting pay rises). Can't Bertie and his traveling circus clowns put 2 + 2 together???

DMC

Don't get me wrong, I agree it is an issue, a big issue. But is not a issue that is high up on the publics list of big issues. What I am querying FG is, why now? whats this?

There are more issues that you can deal with and attack the govt on, that strike a cord with the public, like health etc.

Enda, get your policys right on the big issues, tell the public, and see if we agree with you. You might get votes. If you think that Benchmarking is the issue, you'll get less. Have they learned nothing from Noonan and the corporate donations experience?

solice

Originally posted by sixtysix
i think enda kenny has lost the bit god gave him. the notion that he proposes postponing a payment he has no control over thus alienating significant sections of the VOTING public-the civil servants- is political suicide.

its not really political suicide when you think that the vast majority of the private sector thinks that bench marking is a terrible idea and if you get a nurse or a teacher on their own they will agree. but unfortunatley bertie is hell bent on sending this country down the tubes.

bench marking is a big issue, so is health and education, both of which this govt totally screwed up on. i do realise that vast amounts of money has been pumped into the health service but nothing has come out of it but we need money to make changes. freezing BM will provide a very welcome extra 1.2 billion for charlies books next year. that cant be a bad thing. but bertie in his stuborness refuses to see what is good for the country

Have they learned nothing from Noonan and the corporate donations experience?

corporate donations are back in FG by the way. they are no longer banned.

Originally posted by gandalf
Well eventhou I hate to say it I agree with Enda Kennys position on this. Given the current economic situation Benchmarking should be frozen and not reimpliemented until there is proper streamlining in the Public Sector.

Yes but I heard a figure, of 200,000 who fall under this bench marking umberella.
Thats an awfull lot of voters to upset, maybe up to half a million if you count their spouses/partners or friends.

It's typical of enda kennys ineptitude as an opposition "leader" to spout off like this without thinking.
He strikes me as being in favour of a continuance of Fine Gaels " Say it first without any serious thought going into it " Kamikaze approach to politics that will ensure them a few junior ministerial posts in the next minority Labour government, having wiped out yet more of the FG parliamentary party.
Then maybe that mightn't be a bad thing;)

mm

solice

Originally posted by Man
Yes but I heard a figure, of 200,000 who fall under this bench marking umberella.
Thats an awfull lot of voters to upset, maybe up to half a million if you count their spouses/partners or friends.

that is exactly the kind of attitude that is destroying this country. at last a political leader stands up and tells us what he can do to save this country from going down the toilet but the irish attitude is the same as it always was, the same as berties. keep the voters happy by piling on the money. lets forget about inflation going through the roof as a result. lets gloss over the fact that we have raided the pension fund to pay for the SSIA. lets ignore the fact that ireland has a third world health system.
this is typical, all we are interesd in is keeping our own pockets lined. well at least enda had the guts to stand up and say what had to be said.

this is what FG always had to do, fiscal rectitude. ff are in power, they are all things to all people. they destroy the country. FG has to come in and sort out their "Little hiccups"

star gazer

While i agree that benchmarking isn't the biggest issue around, it is not EK that decides what issues get coverage. FG have been chipping away at benchmarking for a while but it's only when the media decide it's a story will it get coverage.
Benchmaking is important to civil servants and of some importance to private sector workers. It looks like FG will end up alienating a core vote and barely impressing an already uninterested private sector electorate. It looks like benchmarking will be another concrete block into a sinking ship if they don't start making realistic statements.

re corporate donations: is politics all about money now?

solice

if they dont start making realistic statements???
where is that coming from. is freezing benchmarking not a realistic statement. is it not a good idea.

sure it doesnt sound appealing but, withholding payments for one year, but ask yourself is the payment deserved. what improvment has there been in the health service?

as for politics being about money, has it ever not been?

DMC

It is a half-decent statement. I mean that is not a election winning statement.

What will win votes is something that FG can engage with the public on.

We will improve hospitals. We will improve schools. We will improve the government finances. We will make sure that justice is served to those people who were in the care of the church & state and abused. Thats vote and attention winning statements. We will stop the benchmarking payments clearly is not.

FG have their eye off the ball.

star gazer

FG have their eye off the ball.
DMC

It seems that way alright. But i think they have to start playing the game before you can even say that... like previous sentiment's expressed by solice, FG need to take a stand and show vision and fiscal rectitude to bring the country away from the crap we see now. Maybe it is the bedinning of the process of Fine Gael finally start to engage on issues and get their act together, maybe.

if they dont start making realistic statements???
solice

I agree with the sentiment of making benchmarking actually linked to productivity, but my qualification comes in because the statement was put out we could not afford benchmarking and so the government should not pay it. It would be a breech in trust for the government to just walk away from a deal. Bad for irelands reputation to do that. If FG had said they would bring the deal back to the negotiating table and hammer a better deal out i would say that ibec and many others would have been on FG's side. It is easier to accomplaish things if you don't stand alone. I accept that sometimes leaders must lead and stand alone. I'm just saying this wasn't one of those times.

I guess it is a nice dream i have that politics wasn't about money, but i guess that' just a dream.

Cork

Originally posted by star gazer
FG need to take a stand and show vision and fiscal rectitude to bring the country away from the crap we see now. Maybe it is the bedinning of the process of Fine Gael finally start to engage on issues and get their act together, maybe.

FG will not form a government on it's own. Enda needs the Labour party. His views on bench marking will not get much support from labour.

So appart from alienating the public service - Enda's statement is pointless.

But, the country cannot afford benchmarking. This will not move any of the social partners to come out aganist it. Resources could be put into our schools or hospitals.

But Enda's comments while relevant won't achieve much.

star gazer

FG will not form a government on it's own. Enda needs the Labour party. His views on bench marking will not get much support from labour.
Cork

There are plenty of commentators out there that will say that Fine Gael keep cosying up to labour. While they can't form a government on their own they are a seperate party and have to show that otherwise no one will choose FG. If Fine Gael always take the middle ground they will have to move left in government to meet Labour half way.
It seems that it will achieve nothing, but FG, not labour were taking the headlines ina week when both had conferences. Rattling the status quo is no bad thing. Fine Gael are in opposition which by definition means they are powerless to govern apart from making statements, the odd public rally/meeting and debating in the Dáil. The strength of these statements has as much to do with the media as content (almost) so only when the media picks up on a 'story' will people find out on a mass-reach scale.
Fine Gael got it wrong when they appeared to point to a reneging of the deal outright, it should always have been emphasised as a renewgotiation and as a packadge to save the consumer froma a whole raft of stealth taxes.

But Enda's comments while relevant won't achieve much.

i agree.

SCULLY

Kenny's moaning about benchmarking is little more than a profile raising exercise. The present goverment will be in charge for the next 3 years or so (unless the pds pull out which is highly unlikely), and by the time the next election comes around, benchmarking will have already been paid and will be a non issue.
It's easy for kenny to say 'if I were in charge I'd defer the benchmarking', as he knows this will never arise.

I thought his refusal on Dunphy's show to say that the td's should also defer their (large) benchmarking gains showed him up a lot.

I would also be worried that he feels that agreements by the government should be so easily revoked - not someone I'd like to do buisness with.

star gazer

One criticism a lot of people have had in the past of Fine Gael is that they never seemed to stand for anything. It was one lightweight statement after another. Perhaps this is the begining of an attempt to do something different. By no means perfect you got to break some eggs to make an omlete.

Kenny's moaning about benchmarking is little more than a profile raising exercise.
Scully

Isn't that what politicians are always trying to do?

and by the time the next election comes around, benchmarking will have already been paid and will be a non issue.
Scully

You're right all oppositions have a tendency to promise a little more in opposition than in government because they know they won't have to actually take the hard decision. But by the nature of opposition if they stay quiet on issues that may not be relevant in three years, they would become very irrelevant.

I thought his refusal on Dunphy's show to say that the td's should also defer their (large) benchmarking gains showed him up a lot.
Scully

It was a little cowardly of him on the issue. They complain about the Dáil being on holidays and yet in government did nothing about it.

SCULLY

Originally posted by star gazer
One criticism a lot of people have had in the past of Fine Gael is that they never seemed to stand for anything. It was one lightweight statement after another. Perhaps this is the begining of an attempt to do something different. By no means perfect you got to break some eggs to make an omlete.


I agree with you and long for a Fine Gael that would actually stand for something. But why choose something that he knows he will never have to tackle. How about issues that people are concerned about and will be around in 3 years , should he be lucky enough to be in government e.g. state of transport , education facilities, neutrality (Shannon et all) etc.

In my mind, to have a pop at something that they will never need to tackle , is just lazy.

bloggs

FG need to be come a more radical party and represent those in the conservative camp that have been left out in the cold for the past few years. Ireland in my belief needs a new centre right party. The PDs are a joke, FG needs to reinvent themselves at this time, now they have a bit of breathing space until the next election.

colster

I think that the point Kenny was making about BM was that there was no transparency on the performance measures to be met and that most health and education workers would prefer an improvement in their working conditions.
It we were to hold off on the 500m and invested that in opening wards and improving school buildings that this would be more beneficial to the ordinary worker in health or education and work be of more benefit to the general public in terms of improved service.

star gazer

How about issues that people are concerned about and will be around in 3 years , should he be lucky enough to be in government e.g. state of transport , education facilities, neutrality (Shannon et all) etc.

scully

yip. There needs to be a better focus from Fine Gael on the more fundamental issues of the day. I'd add Health reform and the budget's stealth taxes. Cannons to the left of Fine Gael (Sinn Féin, labour) cannons to the right (Fianna Fáil, PDs) it's going to take a mini miracle to get Fine Gael-led government, don't you think?