September 11th and George Bush

daveg

Okay it's September the 11th and 2 years since the attack on the twin towers. My question is how successful, do you feel, has George Bushes war or terror been? Also what do you feel he could have done to make it a success?

My own view is it has been a complete failure. He bombed the shíte out of Afghanistan and failed to kill Bin Laden (although he did wipe out the training camps). He waged war against Iraq because of so-called weapons of mass destruction of which I think we can all agree there were none, which resulted in a further escalation of hatred towards the west (and drew the UK into the hatred as well). The US is now faces with a Northern Ireland typed situation in Iraq with an ever-increasing body bag count.

In hindsight perhaps this is better suited to Politics. Mods feel free to move if you feel necessary .

bugler

Well, the U.S know has troops in Afghanistan/Iraq, when they didn't before. The war on terror has made it very difficult for rivals to criticise Bush or the Republican party, should they have any desire to do so, 'coz when you're at war you all have to fall in behind the boys! The war has allowed Bush a great smokescreen for his horrenduous domestic mis-adventures.

So all in all, I'd say it's been a resounding success.

bloggs

We in Europe will say it's a failure, but as most Americans get their news from the likes of NBC/Fox they are being feed the same old pro-Bush rubbish everyday (who needs a Whitehouse spokesman when you have the news channel). So they will think everything is going good (perhaps the issue of a few US troops getting killed nearly everday is just a blip, and something that comes with the territory).

So it depends on which side of the pond you are on.

Lemming

It's either a complete success (in that Bush herded attention away from an ever declining domestic economy) or a complete failure depending on what way you look at it.

I voted for failure on the basis of the "war on terror" being what it is and not a smokescreen for domestic failures.

AL][EN

I think the poll says it all really.

one huge monumental f*k up if you ask me. Lemming makes a very good point tho.

skittishkitten

While I can understand Bush's need to strike back quickly and give a show of power against Bin Laden and his attack on the twin towers , I feel the war in Iraq is ill concieved and not very well thought out. He has failed to achieve his mission and by continuing with it he is causing more harm than good.

Lemming

Originally posted by skittishkitten
I feel the war in Iraq is ill concieved and not very well thought out.

The invasion was relatively well executed, with some mishaps along the way but altogether nothing that ever really threatened the overall invasion. The exit plan (or lack thereof) was poorly conceived, if at all. It is the exit-plan that shapes tomorrow. This fundamentally important aspect was all but ignored by Rumsie, Wolfie & the glove-puppet. It's easy to just blow stuff up. Far less easy to rebuild, compromise, and settle politics through dialogue.

He has failed to achieve his mission and by continuing with it he is causing more harm than good.

I wouldn't say it's over yet, but it will get a whole lot worse before it gets better unless the neo-con's wake up, and realise that smell is the coffee burning.

AL][EN

Granted the war in Iraq was ill concieved and not very well planned out that you are 100% correct skittish but what id like to ask people is do you believe the war in Iraq was worth it?

forget political agenda's / forigen policies and the war on terror for a second and think was it worth pulling sadam out of power?
what ever bush's "REAL" reasons for attacking iraq were do you think it was worth it?

personally i do im glad he's out of power, now it was totally pooched screwed up by the Americans they didnt handle it very well at all it wasnt the way to do it but in the end when it boils down to it eventually the country will be a better place (i hope)

Lemming

Originally posted by AL][EN
Granted the war in Iraq was ill concieved and not very well planned out that you are 100% correct skittish but what id like to ask people is do you believe the war in Iraq was worth it?

forget political agenda's / forigen policies and the war on terror for a second and think was it worth pulling sadam out of power?
what ever bush's "REAL" reasons for attacking iraq were do you think it was worth it?

Absolutely NOT. There is no way in hell it was worth it. In all honesty, what do we have to show for it?

1. America plunging deeply into some serious national deficit for, at best, spurious reasons.
2. A country in tatters with it's people facing a bleak future.
3. Deaths that could have been avoided (both civilian and military)
4. A divided UN

and johnny-number-f*cking-five .....

The best recruitment agent Al Queada has EVER had. George Bush.

All that's happened is that the flames of hatred have been fanned even brighter.

Ask yourselves this. DO you feel the western world is safer because of this "war"? Or worse?


Oh, and a tin-pot dictator has been removed, leaving another n number of them dotted about the planet.

skittishkitten

Originally posted by AL][EN

forget political agenda's / forigen policies and the war on terror for a second and think was it worth pulling sadam out of power?
what ever bush's "REAL" reasons for attacking iraq were do you think it was worth it?

personally i do im glad he's out of power, now it was totally pooched screwed up by the Americans they didnt handle it very well at all it wasnt the way to do it but in the end when it boils down to it eventually the country will be a better place (i hope)

Do I think the Iraq situation was worth it. No , Bush should have use more subtle means in taking Sadam out of power. He was still trying to make a show of strength that failed miserably . He has not only sullied the name of Americans with his efforts, but has mispent money that should have been invested back into his own country. Now that he's commited to a cause he can't or won't back down without loosing face , therefore he is costing precious lives by continuing on with his agenda.

But Bush is not out of power until the people take him out of office . He may not have approval , but he is not out of power . My fear is that people will feel the need to back him for reelection especially with so many countries rallied against him and "us" now . Unfortunately it's a face off situation and we are not the type to back down if there is no graceful way out .

AL][EN

Perhaps i should have made my view a little more clearer im in total agreement with eveyone here i have a nasty habit of thinking 3 steps ahead of myself while typing at the same time so i tend to loose track of what im saying.

the war in iraq was deffinalty not worth it, war never worth it
you wouldnt think it from my last post but im against war in any form or for any reason i think france and germany had the best idea for a resolution to the iraq problem. however i AM glad however sadam is out of power that much i ment and im happy he is but as i said in my previous post they just went about the wrong way of doing it, the war certianly wasnt worth it and it cost the lives of many soliders (and still losing the lives of soliders i might add)

what i probably ment to say was do you think iraq will be a better place now that sadam is gone not was the war worth it (cos thats just a dumb @ss question to ask)

jesus_thats_gre

Well there has been no terrorist attacks since 9/11... Over simplified perhaps, but it has had the desired effect.

Paddy20

September 11th and George Bush?..

September 11th and all those who lost their lives. Together with all their grieving families and friends need our support , sympathy and a modicum of understanding about the real gravity of the atrocity that was perpetrated upon all those innocent human beings of many nationalities and the grief and disbelief that continues too grip most decent people at this time.

As for George Bush. We live in an imperfect world where the human beings who populate this planet have made a real hash of just about everthing they have touched.

Yes, George Bush is not perfect!, and neither are you. So, we will continue to look for someone else to blame for the worlds ills and tragedies, past, present and too come.

I ask you this. What have you done today for your fellow man. Maybe, if each of us just did a little to help others everyday. Then together we might begin to lay the foundations of a better world for those who are following. The new generation.

P.

Capt'n Midnight

Americans have different ways of saying things.
They say 'elevator', we say 'lift'...they say 'President', we say 'stupid psychopathic git'....
Alexi Sayle

embee

Well there has been no terrorist attacks since 9/11... Over simplified perhaps, but it has had the desired effect.

Er..... the Bali bombing where 200 people were killed was carried out by Islamic extremists with ties to Al Qaeda......

You mean - if they arent in America, they dont really exist?

What about the Anthrax in the US Mail? Didnt kill a lot of people but still thought to be the work of terrorists.....

Victor

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
Well there has been no terrorist attacks since 9/11... Over simplified perhaps, but it has had the desired effect.

or the attack on the UN headquarters in Baghdad, or the Jordanian embassey or the attack on the French oil tanker or the multitude of attacks in Afghanistan or the bombings in Morrocco, Saudi arabia and Tunisia or .... take a look at a longer list here. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0906-05.htm

Spacedog

International symphaty for the victims of the september 11th attacks had been squandered to condone the barbaric actions of the US which in death toll and personal tragidys have exceeded that suffered by the americans on 9/11 many times over since. I don't think Americans are stupid, that the emotional impact of the attacks combined with media propaganda comparable to that of Nazi Germany has swayed the thinking to the average American to turning a blind eye to these atrocities. However, I believe they are a strong people and their objectivity will returnin their own time.

jesus_thats_gre

or the attack on the UN headquarters in Baghdad, or the Jordanian embassey or the attack on the French oil tanker or the multitude of attacks in Afghanistan or the bombings in Morrocco, Saudi arabia and Tunisia or .... take a look at a longer list here. http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0906-05.htm

While its horrible to say, its far enough away from home to sleep at night at least.

Those attacks were taking place before 9/11 and will continue to do so in the future. The first and only big attack was 9/11 and it was the driving force for the yanks to implement their war on terror. The point of this was to prevent anymore unprovoked attacks on their own soil and they have been successful in that aim..

By saying unprovoked, I mean they did not deserve what happened. That is, unless you think flying two seperate jet liners into a two sky scrapers and killing near 3000 people was not over the top.

Fight fire with fire I say.

nadir

Originally posted by Paddy20
September 11th and George Bush?..

September 11th and all those who lost their lives. Together with all their grieving families and friends need our support , sympathy and a modicum of understanding about the real gravity of the atrocity that was perpetrated upon all those innocent human beings of many nationalities and the grief and disbelief that continues too grip most decent people at this time.

As for George Bush. We live in an imperfect world where the human beings who populate this planet have made a real hash of just about everthing they have touched.

Yes, George Bush is not perfect!, and neither are you. So, we will continue to look for someone else to blame for the worlds ills and tragedies, past, present and too come.

I ask you this. What have you done today for your fellow man. Maybe, if each of us just did a little to help others everyday. Then together we might begin to lay the foundations of a better world for those who are following. The new generation.

P.

Well I didnt kill this many people today anyway

---

· 3,000,000 Vietnamese murdered over the course of about 30 years of US aggression.

· Well over 300,000 Japanese were massacred when the US raided Tokyo and dropped nuclear bombs on the urban civilian areas of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

· 600,000 civilians were killed in Cambodia by US bombing between 1969 and 1975.

· Over 500,000 people were killed in Laos when America subjected civilians to “secret bombing” from 1964 to 1973, dropping over two million tons of bombs on the country. Over one fourth of the population also became refugees.

· 100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to the Korean War by a brutal repression supported by US forces in 1945. This includes between 30,000 and 40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt on Cheju Island.

· Up to 4,500,000 Koreans were killed from 1951 to 1953 during America’s massive slaughter in the Korean War.

· Over 2 million were killed in the infamous killing fields by the Kmher Rouge, as a result of unstability in the region during and after the Vietnam war. Figures are difficult to estimate.

· 23,000 people were slaughtered in Taiwan by US-backed, trained, equipped, and funded forces (Chiang’s Nationalist army) during the late 1940s.

· 700,000 Indonesians (mostly landless peasants) were murdered in 1965 when the US armed and supported General Suharto.

· 200,000 were slaughtered in East Timor in 1975 by General Suharto with US support.

· 750,000 civilians were driven from their homes in East Timor by Indonesian forces in 1999 and 10,000 were killed.

· Over 1,700,000 Iraqis have been killed by US bombings and sanctions, mostly women and children.

· Over 1,000,000 lives were lost during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s in which the US used direct force and supported Hussein and Iraq.

· 35,000 Kurds were killed, 3,500 villages were destroyed, and between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000 became homeless as a result of aggression by Turkey with US arming and training in the 1990s.

· Over 1,000,000 people were killed in Afghanistan’s civil war from 1979 to 1992, in which the US strongly supported the Moujahedeen, the most violent and sadistic of the forces. (This also set the stage for the CIA-backed Taliban to attain power.)

· 45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US.

· Thousands have been killed in Palestine and millions (in both Palestine and Lebanon) were made refugees by US-backed Israel.

· Over 150,000 were killed in Greece when America advised, equipped, and financed violent interventions in the late 1940s and late 1960s.

· Over 75,000 civilians were killed and over one million refugees were created in El Salvador from 1980 to 1994 when the US intensely supported the efforts of a brutal regime and its death squads to eliminate a popular uprising.

· 40,000 civilians were killed by the US-backed National Guard in Nicaragua over the course of almost 50 years.

· 30,000 lives were killed by the US contras in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1989.

· 200,000 Guatemalans were slaughtered from 1960-1990s by a military apparatus trained, armed, funded, and assisted by America.

· Over 35,000 Colombian civilians have been killed during the US-supported Columbian war against left-wing rebels.

· More than 4,000 innocent civilians were killed in Panama during the US invasion in 1989.

· Hundreds of thousands were killed by US direct and indirect interventions in Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Peru, and Argentina from the mid 60s through the 80s.

· 50,000 Haitians were killed when the US military destroyed a peasant uprising in 1915.

· Between 4,000 and 5,000 Haitians were killed in the early 1990s by US-established forces.

· Thousands were killed in the Dominican Republic during the 1960s when US and Dominican troops crushed a pro-Bosch rebellion.

· Over 3,000 were killed and countless others injured by US interventions in Cuba.

· Hundreds were killed or injured when the US invaded Grenada in 1983.

· Over 50,000 Somalians were killed between 1978 and 1990 by US-supported Siad Barre.

· Up to 10,000 more Somalians were killed by US troops during America’s “humanitarian mission” in 1993.

· In the US-supported Rwandan genocide, an estimated 800,000 people were killed in just 100 days in 1994.

· Over 300,000 were killed and 80,000 were crippled in Angola from a US-supported civil war.

· Tens of thousands were killed and up to 200,000 were tortured in Chad by Hissen Habre with US support during the 1980’s.

· 1,500,000 were killed between 1980 and 1988 in southern Africa by the US-armed South Africa.

· Thousands of people in Pacific islands, Puerto Rico, Utah, California, Nevada, Washington, New Mexico, and various other places have been killed, infected, or harmed as a result of US weapon experiments (especially nuclear weapons and weapons using depleted uranium).

· Hundreds of civil rights activists have been beaten, tortured, framed, and killed in the US by government agencies in recent history.

· Hundreds of Black Panther supporters and American Indians were framed, beaten, or murdered by the FBI and its cohorts in the late 60’s and early 70’s.

· Over a thousand American Muslims “disappeared” after September 11, 2001, and have been detained without evidence of wrongdoing.

· over 10,000 were killed in Afghanistan by America’s “War on Terror.”

· recent iraq war estimated at 7000

---

And, why again should I give them my support?

daveg

Some clear and concise figures their nadir.

Whilst I don’t necessarily agree with what they did in Afghanistan and I def do not agree with what they did in Iraq what were the alternatives?

Dealing solely with 9/11 how could the US have brought Bin Laden and the Al Quieda to justice? Through the courts

What do you feel the US should have done as a response to 9/11.

Personally I think they should have sent in a special task force (SAS type) into Afghanistan to take out the camps instead of the B-52 bombings.

But then again that wouldn't have removed the Taliban, which was possibly the only positive outcome from the Afghan conflict.

Mac daddy

The man is a joke they can't get Bin laden so the say Iraq has nukes and boi weapons lets get them instead bunch of idiots.:)

sod

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre

Fight fire with fire I say.

turn the other cheek, my child.


just quick comment on george dubyah, does anyone else think the spin doctors put the term 'weapons of mass destruction' into bushs speeches cos he couldnt pronounce nuclear weapons, he said nukular every time *grin*

ok back to topic, sorry

<edit>
cant believe i had to change *sn_igger* to *grin*

Victor

Originally posted by nadir
· 45,000 people were killed in South Lebanon since 1982 by Israel, always armed and supported by the US.

Actually quite a bit of Israeli equipment has been British, French, German and Soviet.

Originally posted by nadir
· In the US-supported Rwandan genocide, an estimated 800,000 people were killed in just 100 days in 1994.

Do you have anything to back this up?

Originally posted by nadir
· 1,500,000 were killed between 1980 and 1988 in southern Africa by the US-armed South Africa.

Actually much South African equipment was indigenous, French, Israeli, Chilean, Argentine or indigenously developed versions of the above.

Sleipnir

Sorry it's so long but I thought it might interest some people about (particularly American) arms trade worldwide compared to other countries. If anyone wants the entire document, let me know.


from the Conventional Arms Transfers to
Developing Nations,
1993-2000
Prepared by the Congressional Research Service.


"In 2000, the United States led in arms transfer agreements worldwide, making
agreements valued at nearly $18.6 billion (50.4% of all such agreements), up from
nearly $12.9 billion in 1999. Russia ranked second with $7.7 billion in agreements
(20.9% of these agreements globally), up notably from $4.1 billion in 1999. France
ranked third, as its arms transfer agreements worldwide rose significantly from $936
million in 1999 to $4.1 billion in 2000. The United States, Russia and France,
collectively made agreements in 2000 valued at nearly $30.4 billion, 82.4% of all
international arms transfer agreements made by all suppliers.



"Developing nations from 1997-2000 accounted for 70.2% of the value of all
international arms deliveries"



"Recently, from 1997-2000, the United States, Russia, and France have
dominated the arms market in the developing world, with the United States ranking
first each of the last three years in the value of arms transfer agreements."


In 2000, the total value, in real terms, of United States arms transfer agreements
with developing nations rose to $12.6 billion from about $8.7 billion in 1999. The
U.S. share of the value of all such agreements was 49.7% in 2000, a significant
increase from 36.6% in 1999


In Asia, the United States sold South Korea 29 Multiple Launch Rocket
Systems (MLRS) for over $260 million; component kits for South Korea’s F-16 C/D
fighter aircraft for over $190 million, and contracted for a number of air and sea-based
missiles. Thailand ordered 18 earlier generation F-16 A/B fighters, and Taiwan
ordered AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles.



The United States dominated arms transfer agreements with the Near East during
the 1993-2000 period with 55.2% of their total value ($46.5 billion in current dollars).

pclancy

The US got a serious wake up call on september 11th that you cant run around the world doing what you like to who you like. Its terrible that so many people lost their lives but in fairness they had it coming. If Al-queda hadnt done it someone else would have in my opinion. The US ego got bruised and then by jumping into Afghanistan and Iraq they have provided exactly what the terrorists wanted- mass hatred of america.

I hated them allready, they've done a lot for Ireland all right but in my opinion they are a huge pack of stupid, ignorant, genocidal buffoons who should keep their army in their own country and stop trying to change the world into their vision of perfection.

flangeman

You know what, I hate this 'What was the alternative?' arguement that gets thrown around.

Why do people actually think that there is an alternative, why when a direct action is made do some believe that reaction must follow.

A Jeremy Hardy said last night(saw him at a comedy gig).

"If you came downstairs fromt the bedroom and walked into the living room and found your wife pushing the television up her arse and you looked at her with disgust and amazement, what would you reply to her when she asked you what the alternative was'

America needed to create a show of strength, and show the world that when it means business it means business(McDonalds, burger king, oil ) ). And it did just that, I see the soldiers interactions with the locals in Iraq and it they say the same lines over and over again "we have come to free you, we have come to free you" yet waving guns at them to move back and stop their protests.

I wouldn't worry, the Romans didn't really last too long till they imploded(just a couple of hundred years) and something tells me America will be a showstopper. What goes around comes around, too many personal agenda's are being played out in the American peoples names and it will catch up with them.

nadir

Originally posted by Victor
Actually quite a bit of Israeli equipment has been British, French, German and Soviet. Do you have anything to back this up? Actually much South African equipment was indigenous, French, Israeli, Chilean, Argentine or indigenously developed versions of the above.

Rwanda http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html[/URL

As for Israel they recieve over over 3 $billion aid of wich over a billion goes to weapons. Israeli armed forces, use mainly US weapons(m4 carbines, Apache gunships .etc), and israeli built equipment, tanks .etc, making them one of the leading tank sellers in the world. Dont forget the desert eagle is also Israeli, and they build custom m82s and all sorts of military stuff.
It is true that much south african equipment comes from other countries, but as previously said the us accounts for the major part of arms sales around the world.

Typedef

Invading two countries, and continuing to protect Israel in the UN and infact diminishing the importance of the UN and supplanting it with an American quasi-Dictatorship, was never an exercise in Mid-East public relations.

lili

Originally posted by Paddy20
September 11th and George Bush?..

September 11th and all those who lost their lives. Together with all their grieving families and friends need our support , sympathy and a modicum of understanding about the real gravity of the atrocity that was perpetrated upon all those innocent human beings of many nationalities and the grief and disbelief that continues too grip most decent people at this time.

As for George Bush. We live in an imperfect world where the human beings who populate this planet have made a real hash of just about everthing they have touched.

Yes, George Bush is not perfect!, and neither are you. So, we will continue to look for someone else to blame for the worlds ills and tragedies, past, present and too come.

I ask you this. What have you done today for your fellow man. Maybe, if each of us just did a little to help others everyday. Then together we might begin to lay the foundations of a better world for those who are following. The new generation.

P.

well, don't you think that the president of the most powerful country, the man which got our futur between his hands, should have a IQ at least more than 91?
and with guys like dick cheyney and rumsfeld around him, i don't see how the world will getting better.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by flangeman
You know what, I hate this 'What was the alternative?' arguement that gets thrown around.

Why do people actually think that there is an alternative, why when a direct action is made do some believe that reaction must follow.

A Jeremy Hardy said last night(saw him at a comedy gig).

"If you came downstairs fromt the bedroom and walked into the living room and found your wife pushing the television up her arse and you looked at her with disgust and amazement, what would you reply to her when she asked you what the alternative was'

America needed to create a show of strength, and show the world that when it means business it means business(McDonalds, burger king, oil ) ). And it did just that, I see the soldiers interactions with the locals in Iraq and it they say the same lines over and over again "we have come to free you, we have come to free you" yet waving guns at them to move back and stop their protests.

I wouldn't worry, the Romans didn't really last too long till they imploded(just a couple of hundred years) and something tells me America will be a showstopper. What goes around comes around, too many personal agenda's are being played out in the American peoples names and it will catch up with them.

While I can see your point. It really annoys me that you sit there dismissing other people approaches to what is nearly an impossible situation.

Maybe I can present it is a different manor, what would you suggest doing about a terrorist organisation that is hell bent inflicting the maximum amount of civilian casualties they can?

While George is a complete twat, he handled the 9/11 tragedy quite well and America's miltitary reaction was quite reserved. Its all well and good dismissing his actions, but put yourself in his position and think about how you would react.

I do make this point however, the chap is a muppet and shouldnt be in control of that country. What he does is not all bad however.

MrPinK

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
Maybe I can present it is a different manor, what would you suggest doing about a terrorist organisation that is hell bent inflicting the maximum amount of civilian casualties they can?

Maybe try address the issue of why it is that these people are targeting you? A strong commitment to establishing a Palestinian state would have done a huge amount more to ending terrorism and bringing stability to the region than invading Iraq has done.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by MrPinK
Maybe try address the issue of why it is that these people are targeting you? A strong commitment to establishing a Palestinian state would have done a huge amount more to ending terrorism and bringing stability to the region than invading Iraq has done.

He cant force everyones hand. This seems to be a goal of his, maybe they have learned some lessons and realise they cant force everyone to do what they want.