Contention Ratio, Netsource and need for clarity.

mewso · 03-09-2003 1:37pm #1

I've been reading with interest the posts about Netsource and the measures they have taken recently.
I am still unclear about contention ratio. Can anyone explain to me why on Netsource SOHO, Rathmines, I can get download speeds of 50KB/s and only pings of 150-200 on game servers. I am aware that more packets are involved with games etc. but Eircom users have quite clearly stated they get steady pings of low numbers. Surely they are on the same contention ratio?
People have been comparing the service to slightly better than ISDN (especially with bandwidth throttled) but with the pings I get it's worse than isdn. ISDN 64K got 60-70 pings to english servers. So forgive me for wondering where the benefit are, contention ratio or not.
I've been trying to imagine Netsource's thinking through all this and the only conclusion I can come to is that they haven't a bogs notion why pings are so high and therefore the bandwidth throttling is the latest in a series of clueless attempts to see what the problem is. Someone please explain why contention ratio is the problem. If it is then low pings will not happen on any of the lowest packages offered by any Irish ISPs. It seems like it's just the easiest explanation and the one Netsource have latched on to.

Co33iE · 03-09-2003 1:42pm

been saying this since the start, its nothing todo with contention
as no one was having download speed problems.

Its just their ****ty routers or lack of skillz at setting routers up.

valen · 03-09-2003 1:53pm

Nothing shows ignorance better than saying someone whose full time job it is to configure routers can't do it properly. Would I be right in saying you couldn't do it at all ?

Especially seeing as you seem to have difficulty grasping the fact that there are hundreds of reasons why ping times can be slow on congested links.

In this case, it's mainly that Eircom provide RADSL as a 2mbit line for 192 users. When lines get anywhere near 90% capacity, the TCP sliding window protocol starts to degrade ping times.

If you have just five unthrottled users on that connection, that's what'll happen. Corrections, anyone ?

John

Tazzle · 03-09-2003 2:57pm

Look, netsource is a resold product of eircom's, they use eircom's equipment and dslams. This means that since all of eircom's customers still have perfect ping times and are obviously sharing the same hardware as netsource's customers that the problem is in fact nothing to do with contention at all. If I head another word about contention there is a good chance I may fly off the handle.

aphex™ · 03-09-2003 3:02pm

Originally posted by Mr.Taz
Look, netsource is a resold product of eircom's, they use eircom's equipment and dslams. This means that since all of eircom's customers still have perfect ping times and are obviously sharing the same hardware as netsource's customers that the problem is in fact nothing to do with contention at all. If I head another word about contention there is a good chance I may fly off the handle.

Could €ircon be limiting other suppliers speeds, in order to make people switch to them?
I've heard of it happening with Ver|zon in the US..............

Is there any way to like, ping the exchange?

IDM · 03-09-2003 3:37pm

Originally posted by aphex™
Could €ircon be limiting other suppliers speeds, in order to make people switch to them?
I've heard of it happening with Ver|zon in the US..............

I live in the US for 6 months of the year and have Verizon DSL. I guess they get away with sh*t like that because they actually have a good service that most people want, unlike Eircrap: 768/128 & veeery uncapped. Reckon I've downloaded about a terabyte since I've had it

Mutant_Fruit · 03-09-2003 4:31pm

to ping the exchange check what the Gateway IP address is in your settings (not sure where that'd be on your comp, bot on mine its in Contorl Panel>Network Settings and in there)

Then just ping that. It should be >20 ms, and more likely less than 10ms.

IDM · 03-09-2003 4:43pm

If you're running XP, the easiest way is to right click on your LAN connection in the system tray --> Status --> support tab. Your gateway should be there.

If you're connecting through a router, you'd have to access the router settings then go to your connection status tab.

Most ping programs also show you all the hops between your pc & whatever you're pinging. If you ping something random then find your first hop that isn't the router, that should be the ISP.

Has anyone actually done this with netsource ? People seem to be assuming that it's Netsource's backbone connection that's causing the slow pings, but has anyone tested to see what the initial ping to the isp is ?

For example, I'm connected via wifi @ work:
2 ms ping to the router
9 ms - 2 ms = 7 ms to the ISP

I assume this is pretty normal. What are people on netsource getting to their exchange ?

PrecariousNuts · 03-09-2003 5:45pm

Something like this?

F:\DOCUME~1\DAVIDL~1>tracert www.boards.ie

Tracing route to www.boards.ie [217.114.166.147]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms rfc1918.space.should.not.be.used.on.publicips [192.168.1.1]
2 64 ms 30 ms 23 ms rt004dub.netsource.ie [213.79.63.254]
3 54 ms 29 ms 30 ms rt001dub.netsource.ie [212.17.32.97]
4 * * 42 ms rt001kil.netsource.ie [212.17.32.101]
5 * 53 ms 39 ms fe0-0-brian.DUB.router.COLT.NET [193.1.208.204]
6 53 ms 66 ms 51 ms 217.173.97.118
7 110 ms 84 ms 100 ms 217.173.97.170
8 139 ms 121 ms 94 ms 217.114.160.11
9 245 ms 104 ms 30 ms www.boards.ie [217.114.166.147]

IDM · 03-09-2003 5:50pm

Originally posted by PrecariousNuts
2 64 ms 30 ms 23 ms rt004dub.netsource.ie [213.79.63.254]

Therefore 213.79.63.254 is where you first make contact with netsource. Do a standard multi-ping through command prompt:

"ping 213.79.63.254 -t"

and tell us what kind of average you get & what kind of packet loss.

IDM · 03-09-2003 5:58pm

Actually ... when I really think about it. What would be even more interesting would be taking the average ping to the last netsource IP: I'm guessing the 4th node, & then subtracting the ping from the 2nd node. This ought to show us how long packets are passing through netsource's equipment & exchanges for.

PrecariousNuts · 03-09-2003 8:33pm

Ping statistics for 213.79.63.254:
Packets: Sent = 81, Received = 79, Lost = 2 (2% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 28ms, Maximum = 687ms, Average = 222ms

Well here is the average for 81 pings. Its usually much much better in the morning not that that is any excuse at all. I'll try that other thing now

longword · 03-09-2003 8:48pm

Originally posted by Mutant_Fruit
to ping the exchange check what the Gateway IP address is in your settings (not sure where that'd be on your comp, bot on mine its in Contorl Panel>Network Settings and in there)

That gateway IP address is well beyond the exchange - it's actually in Netsource's NOC. Everything between you and Netsource is ATM. The DSLAM has no clue what an IP address looks like, it just passes the ATM packets on to wherever it's told.

IDM · 03-09-2003 8:56pm

Originally posted by longword
That gateway IP address is well beyond the exchange - it's actually in Netsource's NOC. Everything between you and Netsource is ATM. The DSLAM has no clue what an IP address looks like, it just passes the ATM packets on to wherever it's told.

If there was a bottleneck along the line, would it sill be possible to figure out where it was happening ?

PrecariousNuts · 03-09-2003 9:57pm

Tracing route to www.netsource.ie [212.17.32.48]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms rfc1918.space.should.not.be.used.on.publicips [192.168.1.1]
2 190 ms 189 ms 194 ms rt004dub.netsource.ie [213.79.63.254]
3 184 ms 195 ms 194 ms aurora.medianet.ie [212.17.32.48]

Trace complete.

[2]

Ping statistics for 213.79.63.254:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 30ms, Maximum = 210ms, Average = 151ms

[3]

Ping statistics for 212.17.32.48:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 94, Lost = 6 (6% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 27ms, Maximum = 245ms, Average = 164ms

Taking the averages away 164-151=13ms

Hope this helps

Dustaz · 03-09-2003 11:32pm

Originally posted by valen

In this case, it's mainly that Eircom provide RADSL as a 2mbit line for 192 users. When lines get anywhere near 90% capacity, the TCP sliding window protocol starts to degrade ping times.

If you have just five unthrottled users on that connection, that's what'll happen. Corrections, anyone ?

John

Im on the rathmines exchange (same as original poster) and i get pings of 40 - all the time. There are no contention issues whatsoever. Either netsource have not bought enough backhaul or their routing is terrible. im not sure where the contention between eircom/ns/iol users occurs but if its at the exchange then its got to be their routing.

valen · 04-09-2003 12:03pm

Originally posted by Dustaz
Im on the rathmines exchange (same as original poster) and i get pings of 40 - all the time. There are no contention issues whatsoever. Either netsource have not bought enough backhaul or their routing is terrible. im not sure where the contention between eircom/ns/iol users occurs but if its at the exchange then its got to be their routing.

Now you are getting it. Netsource are allowed 2mbit of backhaul for 192 customers. Though they would like more, Eircom will not sell it to them, hence the congestion.

It's a feature of the Eircom wholesale DSL service, not a problem with Netsource's implementation of it.

Personally, ISDN FRIACO seems more interesting, but then again, I have a 20mbit connection in work, and more interesting things to do than internet stuff the rest of the time, so I don't mind

John

mewso · 04-09-2003 1:41pm

So what you are saying is that people on iol should be experiencing similar problems? Any iol users out there?

Dustaz · 05-09-2003 10:10am

Originally posted by valen
Now you are getting it. Netsource are allowed 2mbit of backhaul for 192 customers. Though they would like more, Eircom will not sell it to them, hence the congestion.

I think its you that isnt getting it. Netsource CAN buy more than 2mbit of backhaul, they just seem reluctant to pay for the bigger pipe (128? 192? i cant remember). As has been pointed out IOL or UTV are on the same deal with eircom and dont have these problems.

Personally, ISDN FRIACO seems more interesting, but then again, I have a 20mbit connection in work, and more interesting things to do than internet stuff the rest of the time, so I don't mind

How nice for you. Pity the nerds who want a decent service from a product that costs more than car repayments are making such a stink eh?

Contention Ratio, Netsource and need for clarity.

Comments