Fat Tax

Wolfie · 01-09-2003 7:53pm #1

It's hard to decide whether this should go in politics or here... mainly because government and rip off ireland go hand in hand these days, but here goes:

The governent want to bring in the so called 'fat-tax' to tax takeaway foods, and the excuse they are using is that it will go towards the health service. Same way the massive tax on cigarettes and pints goes towards it? It brings in more money for them to spend on other things, when they would have to spend it on the health service anyway. I paid VHI all my life, as well as all my taxes and recently had to go to the A&E in James, waited 2 nights on a trolley in the corridor surrounded by junkies before I got moved to a public ward for 2 more nights and finally got my VHI paid semi-private. 1 week later I got my MRI scan on my brain for a suspected stroke, something you can die from or end up permanently disabled if not treated in a timely manner. Makes you think...

You may say that high-cholesterol foods can cause health problems, and that is true, but the governent wants to tax them in order to bring in more revenue - irrespective of where it is to go. When our health service wasnt so bad (I dont ever remember these days, but I'm told that there was a time it wasnt quite so third world) the government didnt have extra cash from fat taxes to make the health service somewhat decent, instead it was properly organised and run.

Final words: Fat tax = further increased cost of living in ireland. What do you think?

Cabaal · 01-09-2003 8:06pm

Good and bad points to this I have to say.

God points being that it may get people to think about what there eating because of how much there paying for it..

Hay it worked with the bag tax, OK it's a totally different subject!

Alot of what you say is correct but its very hard to know how things will go.

I'm 100% for thje smoking ban but as for this I'm more 50/50 hard to know.

rasper · 01-09-2003 9:19pm

Only one way it should be accepted is that if the tax taken is then used to subsidise "healthy" foods, instead of the overpriced fruit and veg we have for an agricultural nation.
You know it won't though rather to fund our already wasteful government and its cronies.
How are they going to judge this fat tax anyway, doesn't butter, eggs, mayonaise etc fall, under this very general bracket

bug · 01-09-2003 9:51pm

/Jesus Wolfie hope you're ok

Fat Tax, in my view more work for the consumer, (and more money), so the government can throw money into a big black hole, (if that's where it is going).

Sounds like a good idea but dont you just wish they'd tackle the decrepid health system or audit the public service and how it actually works on a day-to day basis, if they collected the revenue for two years on the fat-tax and then said they'd use it for auditing I'd be much happier. An audit where an individual sits with a worker and asks them what their day to day activities are and examines how they fit into the system...now mrs X your the admin, on 40K a year and you get coffee for who exactly...

Its not as if when you walk into the supermarket they're going to indicate which goods now have a fat tax, are they? They'll just lump it on and let the consumer guess. I mean its not as if its general knowledge to the average joe, what carbs,fats, proteins and sugars are in each foodstuff?

/I sometimes wonder where this government get their new fad ideas? Sometimes it seems to me that they walk into a primary school full of enthusiastic 6th class students and just pick their brains??!!*sighs*

echomadman · 02-09-2003 10:02am

I'm in favour of the *idea* of this tax, but i can't see it being implemented very well.
Our current administration has proven itself to be cack-handed at things like this.
More and more bull**** is being piled onto us in the name of public good.. yet we the public aren't seeing any benifits, all I see is my immediate cost of living rising and my quality of life dropping proportionally, despite the fact that I'm a non-smoking, thin non plastic bag using person.

bleh, I can never get a coherent arguement typed out on topics like this, I get a few sentences in and i get enraged

Scottish · 02-09-2003 10:17am

The unfairness of this proposed stealth tax further outlines the problem with overall tax regime in this country.

This tax would hit the poor the most, as they are statistically most likely to eat this type of food.

As someone mentioned, it would make more sense to reduce the ludicrous price of some fresh produce in this country which would be more likely to lead to better eating habits.

Flat, undemocratic taxes that hit everyone at the same level regardless of their overall ability to pay are very dangerous. The bin charges, an idea I don't disagree with, are another example of this.

DaithiSurfer · 02-09-2003 10:37am

This is ridiculous.
You know how to show what you think of it. Make your feelings known at the ballot box.
Pity we cant fire polititions and ministers that are not doing their job properly.

Right so they were saying on the radio the other day that this tax is to make Unhealthy foods less attractive than healthy foods.

Simple answer with the exact same result is :

REDUCE THE ****ING TAX ON HEALTHY FOODS.

Dumb ****s.
I and most of my friends voted FF in the last election.
Not the next time Bertie.
And i believe all FF voters not happy should do likewise.
Then Bertie you can keep your big business pals to vote for you.
There are a lot more ordinary people though you know, but i think its obvious you've forgotten about them.
One man one vote and all that bollox.

LFCFan · 02-09-2003 3:57pm

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
I and most of my friends voted FF in the last election.

Ok DaithiSurfer, you have no right to complain about what our government does to piss us off anymore. You and your mates and people like you who were stupid enough to vote these muppets in again deserve everything you get. You've landed the rest of us right in it. There were more than enough signs there that FF were the wrong people to have in Government yet they walked it again. You're the first person I've come across that actually admits to voting FF. Everyone else that voted for them has gone into hiding or deny that they did. If they get in again I'm emigrating to escape the Stupid Bug that must be doing the rounds.

Wolfie · 02-09-2003 5:54pm

Originally posted by bug
/Jesus Wolfie hope you're ok

Heheh, yeah I'm ok Bug thanks for asking. They put me on a low dose of asprin in the end, and werent able to say 100% what it was that happened. But hey, in a few years everybody will probably be on asprin anyways!

bonkey · 02-09-2003 6:32pm

Originally posted by Wolfie
Makes you think...

It does indeed. While I was home during the summer, I heard and read a bit about Ireland now paying more per capita on its health insurance than anyone else in Europe, and the benefits are simply not to be seen.

I don't want to go off-track, but I do agree in principle that before looking for more money to pump into the Health Service, the govt should start getting that particular house in order.

Over here, there is no such thing as a waiting list unless you're talking about the increidbly specialised surgeries, and even then often not. Every town's hospital has an MRI scanner, as far as I know.

My mate went to a doc a while back to have a problem with his hip checked. The doc prodded, poked, and then told him to go get an MRI to find out for sure what it was. He phoned the hospital to be more or less told "certainly sir, when would it suit you to come in".

Two weeks, as you went through - regardless of the underlying condition - is nigh-on criminal in my opinion.

Final words: Fat tax = further increased cost of living in ireland. What do you think?

In a manner of speaking, I agree.

The whole idea is to encourage people to spend their money on other, less-taxed alternatives in order to prevent their cost of living increasing. As was pointed out, the same logic was applied to plastic bags. You could find an alternative, or you could pay. Most people appear to have chosen to find an alternative.

While something like smoking may be addictive, its a bit harder to argue that (say) McDonalds et al are addictive, and these would seem to be the prime targets of the whole thing.

Yes, I am aware of the arguments levelled about the addictiveness of high-sugar foods, and also about McD's using beef-extract in everything from their chicken mcNuggets to (at least in the past) their so-called vegetable oil for their chips in order to make them taste better.......however, its still falling way short of nicotine on the ol' addictiveness front.

People can eat more healthily without a major effort...all they need is an excuse.

If the scheme were implemented well, I think it would only increase the cost of living by an insignificant amount for anyone who wasn't living of massively fatty foods. It may also open up new business opportunities - people offering healthier alternatives to Boiger-N-Chipz.

On the flip-side....when's the last time anything was implemented well by the government :rolleyes:

jc

sceptre · 02-09-2003 8:51pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
Ok DaithiSurfer, you have no right to complain about what our government does to piss us off anymore. You and your mates and people like you who were stupid enough to vote these muppets in again deserve everything you get.

Ah, I'd rather people like Daithi who learn than the poor unfortunates who never will. He's smart enough not to make the same mistake twice and that isn't so bad.

Victor · 02-09-2003 9:11pm

Originally posted by DaithiSurfer
REDUCE THE ****ING TAX ON HEALTHY FOODS.

Food is VAT rated at 0% (a very few items like alcohol will have excise on them). How do you suggest they reduce the tax on food?

In fact the VAT regime subsidises food. Take a milkman - most of his expenses (excpet the milk) are at 21%, but he charges 0% and gets a rebate, so the food is effectively subsidised/

Restaurant meals and hot takeaway food does have 13.5% VAT, but this is part of what they want to stop you eating.

unkel · 07-09-2003 1:04am

Originally posted by Wolfie
I paid VHI all my life, as well as all my taxes and recently had to go to the A&E in James, waited 2 nights on a trolley in the corridor surrounded by junkies before I got moved to a public ward for 2 more nights and finally got my VHI paid semi-private. 1 week later I got my MRI scan on my brain for a suspected stroke, something you can die from or end up permanently disabled if not treated in a timely manner. Makes you think...

Wolfie, that is absolutely horrific. Your description of your experience is like being in a third world healthcare system. And this is when you have always paid your private health insurance :mad:

Hope ur ok m8 - u sure everything was checked out properly? Seems to me that just taking the aspirin might not be enough. Was your blood viscosity checked? Was it a stroke? Any prior strokes detected on the MRI? Cholesterol level - and cholesterol lowering medication? Diet? Talk to your GP and probably better to a specialist. Let us know ur alright.

egan007 · 15-09-2003 10:31am

Remember that it's not too much Fast food that makes you fat - It's Too much food. They would be better off introducing people to healthier life styles that taking more frickin money out of our pockets/ Lay off the pies fatty

Typedef · 15-09-2003 3:14pm

Get a grip egan.

Abusve/trolls/flames (or similar posts which are funny in a minority way) will get deleted and get you banned.

Yoda · 01-10-2003 5:20pm

It is alarming to see the Irish government toeing the "you are what you eat" line and threaten to tax food with fat in it. There is no metabolic truth in that meme, however. Fat does not make you fat. High amounts of carbohydrate, particularly when dosed as sugar and processed flour, is what is stored up and is what is the chief cause of obesity. Atkins (yes, infamous but often-unread Atkins) has demonstrated a clear link between a dramatic upsurge in obesity and heart disease.

dudara · 01-10-2003 5:32pm

what makes you fat is what you eat. It's as simple as that, and I fail to see the point of this fat tax completely.

The whole situation reminds me of the court cases against McDonalds. How could people have ordered deep fried food, and then turn around and sue them??

Instead of taxing fat food, we need to educate people much more about foods in general. People can then make up their own minds. Oh, and ban white bread. It's so stripped of anything that's good, that they have to add back in the vitamins etc.

stereo_steve · 01-10-2003 5:55pm

+FAT TAX?
+Bag tax
+Car tax (Did you know you pay 21% tax on this!!! Tax on tax!)
+VRT
+M50 Toll Bridge Tax
+Bag Tax
+Condom Tax
+Credit Card Tax
+Bin Tax
+Alcohol and Cigarette Tax are so expensive!
+Television licence ( TAX!)

Theres already so many hidden taxes already. The government really are screwing us!

dudara · 01-10-2003 6:01pm

I've small feet so I buy children's shoes sometimes, especially runners, because they were cheaper, because there was no VAT on childrens shoes, but not anymore. Tax those poor kids.

Boston · 01-10-2003 6:04pm

why should moi pay more for moi food, just because someone i don't know can't control themselfs.

Yoda · 01-10-2003 6:13pm

Dudara opined
what makes you fat is what you eat.

Yes, but it's not the fat that you eat that makes you fat. Of the fuels the body metabolizes, alcohol is burned first, and fat burned second. Protein is burned last. But if you aren't burning enough fuel, then what you eat is laid away for bad times. Of the foods we eat, it's carbohydrates that get turned into stored fat quickest. And the biggest culprits are sugar and processed flour.

unkel · 02-10-2003 11:16pm

Originally posted by Yoda
Yes, but it's not the fat that you eat that makes you fat. Of the fuels the body metabolizes, alcohol is burned first, and fat burned second. Protein is burned last. But if you aren't burning enough fuel, then what you eat is laid away for bad times. Of the foods we eat, it's carbohydrates that get turned into stored fat quickest. And the biggest culprits are sugar and processed flour.

That's very interesting Yoda. Sure thing that if the amount of calories you burn is not equal to the amount of calories you eat, your weight will change. Never heard of the human body prioritising before. Could you possibly back this up with a few links please

Capt'n Midnight · 02-10-2003 11:37pm

me is lazy - look up carboloading etc..

us humans get energy from various sources
ATP - in cells - maybe a few seconds worth
anaerobic conversion of glucose to lactic acid (gives rise to stitch) can give you a bit longer (up to 18 times as much energy can be got when the rest of the glucose is metabolised later)
glucose in the blood - comes from glycogen stored in many cells especially muscle / liver - look up insulin
you can go a few minutes on blood glucose and maybe two hours on glycogen - beyond that you need to burn fat (ie most marathon runners will not finish on carboloading) -sugars are needed to help with fat digestion - otherwise byproducts can cause problems (ketones?)

proteins are only used as a last resourt - most metabolic processes are reversable depending on the concentrations of reactants. So the pathways that use energy to build large proteins also operate in reverse can run backwards to recover a small part of it when neede.

PS. look at cats
when it cold - cat food sales go down - they curl up to stay warm and don't do much
when it is hot - cat food sales go down - they just bask in the warmth..
ie. metabolic rates vary a lot - so unless you are walking accross antartica you need to check your environment. Sitting in a warm room watching TV will use very few calaries...

Yoda · 03-10-2003 8:31am

Originally posted by unkel
Could you possibly back this up with a few links please

It's discussed at length in Atkins' book.

Ste.phen · 06-10-2003 12:43pm

Originally posted by stereo_steve

+Condom Tax

Eh?

stereo_steve · 06-10-2003 8:43pm

Sorry that one i'm not 100% sure on. I was told this by my friend. That there is a tax on them. Apparantly They are charged at a premium (€2 each!!!) to pay for ads about AIDS. Bit of a catch 22 there!

Can anyone confirm this? I'll ask my friend again where he heard this!

Victor · 07-10-2003 1:47pm

Originally posted by stereo_steve
Apparantly They are charged at a premium (€2 each!!!) to pay for ads about AIDS.

Not very bright are we? I saw Durex(?) in the pharmacy the other day while getting my happy tablets.

A 12 pack(+2 free!!!) for €12. So how would that add up then? There would be €28 “condom tax” on the packet.

Of course if 21% VAT is charged on condoms (not sure - go check "The Guide to VAT” www.revenue.ie) then yes about €2.08 per pack of 12 would be in tax.

stereo_steve · 07-10-2003 8:53pm

Victor as I said I'm not sure about it, I'll have to check it out. Don't know the exact amount levied. Will post up when I've found out

Wolfie · 24-10-2003 5:40pm

Getting a bit off topic with the johnnies conversation.. but they definately cost too much.. 4yoyos from a pub vending machine, and 3something in boots!

With the fat tax, I watched the movie "demolition man" again the other day, and Denis Leary's speech about the loss of personal freedom is so happening already! Government will be telling us next that we cant smoke ANYWHERE (well maybe not, they're making way too much tax from the old coffin nails), cant drink alcohol (they banned happy hour already, but again, look at the tax they make from booze), tell us we cant eat the food they say is bad for us.... Just waiting for the internet tax or home computer licence... I guess they will wait until everyone has PCs before they bring in that one!

The point being, shouldnt we have more of a choice of what we do with our own lives and bodies without being penalised and turned into social lepers because of it?

Victor · 24-10-2003 6:26pm

Originally posted by Wolfie
The point being, shouldnt we have more of a choice of what we do with our own lives and bodies without being penalised and turned into social lepers because of it?

You are merely being taxed proportionate to the risks you impose on society.

Wolfie · 26-10-2003 7:16pm

Originally posted by Victor
You are merely being taxed proportionate to the risks you impose on society.

Me eating a big mac meal means I am imposing a risk on society?

sceptre · 26-10-2003 10:04pm

Originally posted by Wolfie
Getting a bit off topic with the johnnies conversation.. but they definately cost too much.. 4yoyos from a pub vending machine, and 3something in boots!

That's the price you pay for not organising your sexual encounters before the pharmacies close:)

(seriously though, the price is high because they know they can get away with it. Most youngsters would pay far more than that for some guaranteed action:rolleyes: )

Fat Tax

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