Irish Broadband lowering price to EUR 30 inc vat

zz03 · 01-09-2003 7:53am #1

In an item in today’s Irish Times (by KL), Paul Doody, MD of Irish Broadband disputes Eircom’s contention earlier this year before an Oireachtas committee that there was little consumer demand for broadband internet access. ‘He feels there is untapped “massive demand”, but price has kept take-up of existing services at a low level.’

Putting his money where his mouth is, they plan to reduce the monthly BB residential charge to EUR 30.00 (inc VAT), with a reduced service set-up fee too.

They are now moving to non line of sight “Ripwave” kit (presumably from www.navini.com) giving them a far greater coverage footprint / quality of service.

zz..

Chaos-Engine · 01-09-2003 9:35am

I'm going to be contacting Irish BroadBand for the third time today and complain about their poor quality of service. I haven't been able to use the web at all on IBB. My 56K modem is faster for gods sake.

Mossy Monk · 01-09-2003 9:37am

will the big dirty rat be following suit

LFCFan · 01-09-2003 10:10am

is this €30 for the Ripwave technology or for their existing one? If so then this is not news. If they were reducing their existing €48 a month charge then that would be something to talk about. Expecially if they reduce the installation charge which is the one thing that would put me off (if I could get it).

zz03 · 01-09-2003 10:20am

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
I'm going to be contacting Irish BroadBand for the third time today and complain about their poor quality of service. I haven't been able to use the web at all on IBB. My 56K modem is faster for gods sake.

I assume you are serviced by a 802.11b or similar platform which is not really scalable to the size of operation that Irish Broadband were working towards, or anything like it. 802.11 is designed for in building or campus networks - and while the range can be extended anyone doing so is pushing their luck, especially in an urban area. Sure to get worse as more WiFi networks pop up to interfere even more.

Demand that they upgrade you to Ripwave as soon as possible and let's see if it works! It is scalable like a mobile phone network and is designed for service providers.

zz..

zz03 · 01-09-2003 11:03am

Originally posted by LFCFan
is this €30 for the Ripwave technology or for their existing one? If so then this is not news. If they were reducing their existing €48 a month charge then that would be something to talk about. Expecially if they reduce the installation charge which is the one thing that would put me off (if I could get it).

Quoting from the article in today's Times

" Irish Broadband will offer a wireless service that matches DSL download speeds for €30 a month including VAT."

The cost issue with Ripwave is that it is self install - you can buy it like you would buy a mobile phone in a shop, switch it on and plug it into your PC and off you go. No external antenna required.

Quoting again:

"The company said it had dropped installation charges by 61 per cent as well, to €149 and under depending on the package, which includes the cost of a modem-like receiving device."

We await an update of their website!

Why are Irish companies so slow to update their websites? They talk to the media about something new. You go to their website for further information only to find zilch.

zz..

zz03 · 01-09-2003 2:06pm

I have been reading further about Ripwave. This is a serious industrial strength highly scalable mass market wireless internet platform – unlike 802.11b or any of the other more expensive wireless platforms used in Ireland so far. It will work equally well in urban and rural areas. If Irish Broadband decided to offer both voice and internet to customers, eircom might have a serious problem on their hands.

An eircom line and entry level DSL costs EUR 77 per month inc VAT. Irish Broadband could get their foot in the door with their network for EUR 30 per month, inc VAT – providing a dial tone as well. Making the real cost of broadband for an Irish Broadband customer who dumps their eircom line just EUR 7 per month!

The Ripwave platform is being used by about ten telcos/isps – including Sprint, KT & Hanaro in South Korea, Bellsouth, Rioplex (TX, USA), Introweb in NL and Ibax in Italy as well as Irish Broadband. I doubt if two telcos in South Korea would be using Ripwave if they didn’t think it had a good chance of competing with the cheap (€22/mth for 8 Mbits/sec) internet services that many people enjoy in that country.

Ripwave uses SCDMA (synchronous CDMA) technology (not dissimilar to 3G mobile phones). It features grade of service and quality of service management and voice, data, video and other multimedia applications are supported with prioritisation (eg you can plug a regular phone into the RJ11 slot in the Ripwave modem and start making and receiving phone calls if your service provider provides this service). Frequency reuse factor N=1 – i.e. very efficient use of spectrum and simple frequency planning. Plug and play self install.

Their technology white paper is at http://www.navini.com/downloads/Unwiring%20Broadband.pdf for anyone who is interested.

One wonders why Irish Broadband didn’t take this route from day one?

zz..

LFCFan · 01-09-2003 2:49pm

I really wish IBB would update their site with all this info. It's very hard to believe any of it until you see it in black and white on their site. Their last Press Release was the 4th of July.

zz03 · 01-09-2003 3:04pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
I really wish IBB would update their site with all this info. It's very hard to believe any of it until you see it in black and white on their site. Their last Press Release was the 4th of July.

Visit the Navini website. www.navini.com

They list IBB as a client using their platform. You can read all about it there! You know the price is EUR 30 (assuming you trust Karlin Lillington)!

What more do you want (other than perhaps availability info with places and dates?)

zz..

LFCFan · 01-09-2003 3:39pm

Originally posted by zz03
Visit the Navini website. www.navini.com

They list IBB as a client using their platform. You can read all about it there! You know the price is EUR 30 (assuming you trust Karlin Lillington)!

What more do you want (other than perhaps availability info with places and dates?)

zz..

I'd rather hear it from the horses mouth. Getting info on a companies services though a third party is hardly great business sense.

The Clown Man · 01-09-2003 3:53pm

Just onto them there.

Their original LOS product has dropped from €320 install to €149 and rental has dropped from €48 to €35 per month all inc. vat.

The Navini product is €30 per month and €120 install. But it's still only active on the three rock transmitter.

LFCFan · 01-09-2003 3:56pm

Originally posted by The Clown Man
Just onto them there.

Their original LOS product has dropped from €320 install to €149 and rental has dropped from €48 to €35 per month all inc. vat.

The Navini product is €30 per month and €120 install. But it's still only active on the three rock transmitter.

Ok, at that price I would definatly get their service. All we need now is for the Ballycoolin Mast to go live.............................

Boston · 01-09-2003 4:01pm

Ripwave service 30 euro, 120 installation contention 40:1 only three rocks, all base station will be up graded soon 512k down 128k up

New home service on old sytem 35 euro, installation 149, contention 20:1 all stations 512k up and down

and the old service will remain at 48 euro, installation 149, contention 8:1

LFCFan · 01-09-2003 4:12pm

Originally posted by Boston
Ripwave service 30 euro, 120 installation contention 40:1 only three rocks, all base station will be up graded soon 512k down 128k up

New home service on old sytem 35 euro, installation 149, contention 20:1 all stations 512k up and down

and the old service will remain at 48 euro, installation 149, contention 8:1

Ah. So it's not a reduction of the old service, it's a new service with a higher contention. Still way better value than DSL. It's even cheaper than NTL Broadband so they won't be able to use that line anymore that they are the cheapest broadband service in the country.

Mr_Man · 01-09-2003 4:32pm

I think it will be a while before this crowd will be able to challenge Eircom in any meaningful way. They have limited coverage in Dublin and little or nothing outside the capital.

While the price cut is welcome, an expansion of their coverage would be even better news...

M.

Nuphor · 01-09-2003 4:33pm

What kind of distances are we talking about with their NLOS service?

Boston · 01-09-2003 4:37pm

Originally posted by Nuphor
What kind of distances are we talking about with their NLOS service?

several km, check out navani (spellign website, on the other ripwave thread.

Originally posted by Mr_Man
While the price cut is welcome, an expansion of their coverage would be even better news...

M.

you mean like the recently live mountjoy station or the ifsc station or the guniness station. they are expanding, don't make it sound like ntl who have sat on their hands

zz03 · 01-09-2003 4:50pm

Originally posted by Nuphor
What kind of distances are we talking about with their NLOS service?

According to http://www.navini.com/downloads/BWBJul-Aug02.pdf
Navini state that they can achieve tree and wall penetration at distances of 3 to 4 miles from their cellsite without an external antenna. With an externally mounted antenna NLOS tree and wall penetration 7 to 8 miles. With LOS 12 miles.

In an urban area one would have thought that they would be aiming to have a cellsite within three to four miles of any subscriber to make maximum use of spectrum resources.

zz..

Nuphor · 01-09-2003 5:07pm

Interesting read was that.. I may just fire off an email to see if they'll ever roll our in Wateryford

sixtysix · 01-09-2003 8:23pm

chaz
come back in here and explain all this-on friday i suggested ibb should drop the price and you were dismissive of the suggestion-whats going on.
baffled

Moriarty · 01-09-2003 8:33pm

sixtysix, even if chaz knew about the price change (hes not in the marketing department..) he wouldnt have been at liberty to say anything about it before the company made an offical statement/news release.

sixtysix · 01-09-2003 8:59pm

its great news anyway-and first suggested here-another achievement for the ioffl boards

manic_monster · 02-09-2003 7:38am

Great news -does anyone know if any of the transmitters cover lucan?

theking · 02-09-2003 1:11pm

Or Coolock. lots of houses out here, you know. Many with people in them, and some of those people have computers who'd like broadband.

Chaz · 09-09-2003 9:05am

Only just saw this thread - been to busy with the other one on page 13 or thereabouts.

Ye - I didnt actually know about the price drop for the higher contention. At least it is there for the offereing now - and with Ballycoolin (D15) up - should make some of you happy.

See the IBB New Products post.

STaN · 09-09-2003 12:37pm

Originally posted by zz03
According to http://www.navini.com/downloads/BWBJul-Aug02.pdf
Navini state that they can achieve tree and wall penetration at distances of 3 to 4 miles from their cellsite without an external antenna. With an externally mounted antenna NLOS tree and wall penetration 7 to 8 miles. With LOS 12 miles.

In an urban area one would have thought that they would be aiming to have a cellsite within three to four miles of any subscriber to make maximum use of spectrum resources.

zz..

There is a continuing element of mis-information on boards lately and in the press with regards to the state of affairs of Navini. It is only being tested off of 3Rock and has not been commercially launched as far as i am aware. If you read about the people whom have tested it, you will see what its capabilities are like.

Navini was built in the states where the power limits are 20 times what they are in the 2.4Ghz band. We are allowed 20times less transmit power here. They claim that each link is a point to point link in the states and are then allowed to transmit at point to point link power ratios. Problem is, its one point trasmitting to a number of points. I.e. point to multipoint. So therefore it is constrained by point to multipoint power limits. They are currently in legal discussions in the states which threatens to dampen their offering somewhat by operators being restricted to lower power limits.

Now imagine what this does for range and NONLos capabilities.

In order for Irish Broadband to offer this service they will have to offer it in the 3.5Ghz band, which requires a licence. And even then they are limited to 2 channels or so.

I have information on the viability of Navini if anyone is interested.

Regards.

Dangger · 09-09-2003 12:49pm

I have to say I'm impressed with the kit. I'm actually using it in a property on Grosvner Square Rathmines that I never considered would reach Three Rock, yet it does with a medium strength reading. I'm considering getting an externa antenna to see if I can boost it a little.

The speed varies but still far exceeds what I could hope for with 56k or single channel ISDN. Considering the property has no fixed line setup its staying for a 12 month stint.

Chaz · 10-09-2003 8:34pm

Dangger.

Speeds should be better now that the backhaul capacity has been increased. Can you confirm?

zz03 · 10-09-2003 9:53pm

Originally posted by STaN
Navini was built in the states where the power limits are 20 times what they are in the 2.4Ghz band. We are allowed 20times less transmit power here.

So what? The reason for my posting was to highlight the fact that for the first time someone in the wireless broadband industry in Ireland has bought industrial strength mass market kit.

This is based on mobile phone technology. They don't need lots of transmit power. As demand presents itself cellsite density can be increased - reducing the distance to the end user - and allowing the same spectrum to be re-used over and over. And reducing the need for antenna installation for most users.

In order for Irish Broadband to offer this service they will have to offer it in the 3.5Ghz band, which requires a licence. And even then they are limited to 2 channels or so.

Have ComReg refused this or attached onerous terms to same? As indicated previously this kit has a frequency reuse factor of N=1. They can rubber stamp the same frequency all over the place without any worries of "ink running".

If you have information on any of the eleven or so companies that are using the RipWave platform in the field running into strategic problems, I for one will be all ears.

zz..

zz03 · 11-09-2003 9:29am

Originally posted by Dangger
I have to say I'm impressed with the kit. I'm actually using it in a property on Grosvner Square Rathmines that I never considered would reach Three Rock, yet it does with a medium strength reading. I'm considering getting an externa antenna to see if I can boost it a little.

The speed varies but still far exceeds what I could hope for with 56k or single channel ISDN. Considering the property has no fixed line setup its staying for a 12 month stint.

I assume you are referring to the Ripwave kit?

At a guess the premises is about 7kms from Three Rock which is beyond the range for a no external antenna installation. There is undoubtedly a lot of radio interferance along this path which when combined with the fact that you are pushing the envelope on the range and antenna front it is a miracle that you are getting anything above 110bps! (due to the need for retransmission of the data when errors are detected which slows everything down).

When you say you are getting a "medium" strength reading, I assume that refers the signal you are getting from three rock? If so it doesn't mean that the stuff your low powered internal antenna box is sending to Three Rock is arriving there at "medium" strength. Almost certainly it is not. This is where an external antenna will help. They have a megaphone at their end and you can only shout at the top of your voice so to speak.

It should improve greatly when the RTE mast has Ripwave as this will shorten the distances involved.

I am surprized that they bothered with Three Rock for this. You wouldn't put a mobile phone mast up there to serve South Dublin. A crazy place for any cell based architecture.

They would be better off enabling low altitude cells and going for QoS rather than trying to blast a large urban area with coverage from on-high.

zz..

STaN · 11-09-2003 9:44am

Originally posted by zz03
So what? The reason for my posting was to highlight the fact that for the first time someone in the wireless broadband industry in Ireland has bought industrial strength mass market kit.

This is based on mobile phone technology. They don't need lots of transmit power.

My mobile phone broadcasts at 1W... 10 times the allowed power limit in 2.4Ghz.

So yours saying that even with 5% of the power limit of the US, they can achieve the same non-LOS preformance as in the US at the same distances?

Urban Weigl · 11-09-2003 10:29am

Originally posted by STaN
So yours saying that even with 5% of the power limit of the US, they can achieve the same non-LOS preformance as in the US at the same distances?

In the U.S., Navini has a range of 10 miles (16.1km) and beyond, from what I understand. In contrast, IBB are only going 5km. In addition, technology has moved on since mobile phones, and they're using quite a large unit with a 8-inch antenna (I think it differes slightly on the frequency), which will be a lot better at receiving signal than your mobile.

STaN · 11-09-2003 10:58am

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
In the U.S., Navini has a range of 10 miles (16.1km) and beyond, from what I understand. In contrast, IBB are only going 5km. In addition, technology has moved on since mobile phones, and they're using quite a large unit with a 8-inch antenna (I think it differes slightly on the frequency), which will be a lot better at receiving signal than your mobile.

Fair 'nuff, but that isnt 10miles @ non-LOS & completely internal from what i understand.

If they can only do 4miles nonLOS, then taking that same ration, they can only do 2km MAX nonLOS

Urban Weigl · 11-09-2003 11:12am

Double the power doesn't usually mean double the range. IBB are saying 5km max from what I know, and I'm pretty sure this is LOS (or near-LOS).

STaN · 11-09-2003 12:13pm

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Double the power doesn't usually mean double the range. IBB are saying 5km max from what I know, and I'm pretty sure this is LOS (or near-LOS).

Yeah but im sure 5% of the power effect its abilities to penetrate solid walls

Urban Weigl · 11-09-2003 1:29pm

Originally posted by STaN
Yeah but im sure 5% of the power effects its abilitis to penetrate solid walls

Depends on the number of walls.

zz03 · 11-09-2003 3:31pm

Originally posted by STaN
My mobile phone broadcasts at 1W... 10 times the allowed power limit in 2.4Ghz.

So yours saying that even with 5% of the power limit of the US, they can achieve the same non-LOS preformance as in the US at the same distances?

I'm saying that ripwave operates using cells which should be relatively small in an urban area - therefore they don't need much power.

Your mobile phone (assuming it is GSM) operates on varying wattages from a few milliwats to 2 watts. In an urban area it will normally be transmitting at far less than 1 watt. It can also operate 20kms or more from a cellsite in rural areas by jacking up the power.

Ripwave is CDMA based not unlike 3G phones. A 3G phone (WCDMA) operates at about 0,6 mW in an urban environment and 7mW in a rural environment. The maximum power output of a 3G handset is between 125 and 250 mW depending on model.

If you look at Irish Broadband's cellsite locations (see their website) they could cover a large part of Dublin with cells of about 4km range if they upgraded these sites to Ripwave.

zz..

Irish Broadband lowering price to EUR 30 inc vat

Comments