Garda self defense

xx

Hey all, quick question for yiz. Earlier today, I was around in a friends house. One of his mates came over, and it turned out that this guy is a garda. We were all messing around, but things began to get froggy and he challenged me to a shoot (as in, a wrestling competition). Now, I is just an ikkle little judo white belt (but have been trained in a good mix of other things) and weigh a little over 12 stone. He was about 14 and a half stone. So, we grappled, the intention being to either pin the other or make them submit/tap out etc. I picked up the win after about 25-30 seconds with a triangle choke.
So, my question is - what sort of self-defense training or restraint training do the garda do? IMHO, its not very good.

Sarky

[cynic] They practise the art of staying out of trouble.[/cynic]

I don't think they use any particular style, just a load of holds, disarming techniques, sudual methods. I'd imagine they take the best bits from a few styles.

GoneShootin

the last thing a gard wants to do is get involved in close combat situations like judo. cos next thing you know, the assailants m8 is out behind him with a random hard object

id say its more in the effective locking/holding and generally not getting killed

Runfree

Imo they don't do Self Defense. I think they just use whatever force is required to restrain the person. I say this as I was out several times in my home town and the Gardai could not restrain anyone. For one individual it took 4 officers to just hold on to him and they still could not control him properly. Also there was one of the officers that had an individual in a hold but if he wasn't intoxicated and helpfull then he could have split the Gardai's head with one move.

Now I am not trying to say that the Gardai are useless but when it comes to self defense I must say this is not great. Perhaps it would be good idea brought forward that all Gardai study some sort of Self Defense while in the force.

RunFree

Repli

The FBI and NYPD in america do krav maga as far as I know.. I'd say they find it a lot easier to restrain people than the Gardai.. I think if they were to learn a martial art it should be krav maga as it teaches disarming techniques, defensive tactics against guns, knives, sticks, and most importantly self defence..

Runfree

Originally posted by Repli
The FBI and NYPD in america do krav maga as far as I know.. I'd say they find it a lot easier to restrain people than the Gardai.. I think if they were to learn a martial art it should be krav maga as it teaches disarming techniques, defensive tactics against guns, knives, sticks, and most importantly self defence..

Well what I find mostly in the USA most type of officers study some kind of Martial Arts.(ok that doesn't say every one does but quite a few higher ranked officers would do.)

I can actually say that one member of the CIA is a 10th Dan in Kenpo and a 9th in Tai Kwan Do. I have actually trained with him and by got he makes training so easy and fun.

As the fact that you choose Krav Maga I don't know that much about it other then reading on it here but it sounds as a study of self defense.

RunFree

vasch_ro

They study Taiho Jutsu they receive little or no training in it
I believe some off them only get one day to do the entire course
for those of you who want further info about this art see this link
http://www.itjf.org/rank.html
although I do know that they are examined and if they fail they cannot get out onto the streets

vasch_ro

more info
TAIHO JUTSU or Arresting Art was born in 1947 and an official manual produced. Since then the system has been subjected to a number of revisions by other Sensei which have taken into account the changing requirements of the police. Officers were taught to use a five foot staff called a JO and the KEIBO or police baton approximately fourteen inches long was introduced in a number of techniques called KEIBO SOHO. Then in 1966 the Japanese police adopted the use of an extending tubular baton called TOKUSHU KEIBO.

In 1973 TAIHO JUTSU was introduced to the United Kingdom by Sensei Brian EUSTACE, when he was asked to review the self defence system for the British police officers. Finding that officers only received tuition in unarmed combat moves at the start of their service, with no refresher courses, Eustace taught a series of Basic techniques that were to be practised regularly. The grades attained were recognised in Japan. These techniques were subject to the same revision process as its Japanese counterpart, which has resulted in a number of changes to the basic techniques as some fell in or out of favour with the authorities.

Today TAIHO JUTSU is used to describe a martial art that until recently was taught and practised almost exclusively by police officers. Officers who used its teachings and techniques to deal with real encounters, some potentially lethal, during their tours of duty tested its effectiveness on a day to day basis.

Runfree

Originally posted by vasch_ro
They study Taiho Jutsu they receive little or no training in it

Well that would explain why they are quiet incapable of making a proper arrest when some one resist.

TacT

They need something like jiu jitsu imo.
God knows they'll probably go learning Tae Kwon Do :rolleyes:

Runfree

Originally posted by TacT
They need something like jiu jitsu imo.
God knows they'll probably go learning Tae Kwon Do :rolleyes:

Ah well atleast then they can kick their way out of a bad situation

Unjaku

In fairness, before people start criticising the Gardai with blanket statements or implying they are incapable of making 'proper' arrests (Runfree) they should walk a mile in their shoes. Unless you're hiding a qualification in policing... ?

We have had Gardai training with us who recognised the fact that they were not prepared well by their basic training. Reallistically, police cannot become martial artists or even competent fighters in the short time-frames of training they have to work with: they have more relevant things to be learning. What training they do receive might actually be good, the problem lies in the fact that many Gardai are unwilling to invest time training outside of work to retain the skills they learn or improve their ability (for the same reason some Gardai look tremendously unfit, while others are fitness fanatics : it depends on the individual interests and motivation of the person).

When it comes to their safety, the best defensive measure the Gardai have is their uniform and all that goes with it: an element of respect, a little bit of fear, a lot of backup/numbers and pretty much a blank cheque from the powers that be. Anyone who hits a Garda and is nabbed can expect rough treatment down at the station, and that's an understatement.

As far as restraining someone who is very violent goes: Reallistically even the most experienced people will have trouble restraining someone who is going psycho and is off their head on coke or whatever. If you are trying to neutralise them but are working with artifical restraints which stop you actually hurting them, while they are trying to take your head off, then you have a big problem. I have seen guys on leeson street with four cops hanging off them, totally in outer space. Pain compliance techniques, come-along holds etc. do not register on these kinds of guys, and it is not a case of how good at martial arts you are: the only thing that will stop them is something which renders them mechanically unable to continue. And the kind of techniques that will reliably do that, like a carotid restraint or a hard baton strike to the patella are exactly the kind of things that the police are nominally not aloud to do.

It's worth remembering that a lot of the Gardai on the frontline in the city centre have less than two and a half years experience: these are not the most experienced people in the force, many are relatively new to the job. Even if they weren't, it is unrealistic to expect extensive combatative ability just because they are wearing a uniform, policing is not really about scrapping- modern police forces follow a preventative approach rather than focussing on how to break heads (as it should be). The policing skills and analytic / investigative ability of Gardai are far more important measures of their worth than whether or not they can win grappling contests in someone's back yard.

Runfree

Well thats a very fair point. Just to come back on the point where I said they are incapable of making an arrest. I didn't mean literally.

Like you said you seen people on Leeson Street with 4 Gardai hanging of them.
This just shows that they haven't the easiest of jobs as they are trying to use a little force as possible.

This reminds me of the fact that I was at a house party yesterday and tried applying that same principle of non violent force. I tried to restrain someone(a friend) but it was very difficult as they were all drunk.

Still however I do respect the Gardai as they are out there to protect us from all the bad people out there.

RunFree

vasch_ro

I think unjacku's point is well made I know my mate had his ear bitten and was headbutted while the offender was handcuffed !
I think it is hard to effect pain compliance techniques when they are so sky high as not to feel any pain !!