isdn problems.....

Eurorunner

Where to start...

I inherited the use of someone elses isdn line some time ago...he was utilising it purely for the second phone line,
was still surfing using a regular win-modem. I tried to connect using an AVM fritz! ta card. I was barely holding a connection with
this, achieveing 1-2kb/sec. Proceeded to contact AVM support - they gave me a (german) dial-up number to their server...i connected
to it and downloaded a file at a rate of 60-80kbit/sec. I tried another isdn ta card with similar results. According to AVM, the fact that i could dialup to their server at normal speed shows that neither the line nor their adapter is at fault.
Which leaves dial-up networking settings and service provider.


The service provider at the time was iol but i tried to connect with utv and eircom pay as you go with similar results. I now have utvs xl package..and the transmission rates the same.


I have looked at my dial-up networking settings and cant see what the problem might be. I just rang biddy, they did a line test - said it was ok. The LED's are lit up correctly on the 'plug and play' box. I know that the actual lines have been down a couple of times due to lightening but if i connected to
AVMs server at a good speed, then theres no point looking at this aspect of the problem is there???

i'm running windows xp pro with sp1 by the way. Drivers are uptodate.


Was simply going to get rid of isdn but need the two lines ...which means its the same price anyway..


Has anyone experienced the above scenario??

Any troubleshooting suggestions?

IN summary,

surely,
a). its not the isdn card (have tried two)
b). its not the isp (have tried various ..unless they're all at fault....lol)
c). I was always inclined to think that it was going to be the line ...but then i connected to avm at 60-80kbps??

Eurorunner

Wasnt sure what other way i could troubleshoot this so i put in the call to Biddy:D . Biddy did a 'line test' and couldnt see a problem. They called out next day - said that there was a 'leakage' on the line between here and the exchange (4 miles). They reckoned they found the interference and problem solved. After this, the modem in a credit card payments terminal thats on that line burnt out...not sure if this was a result of telecoms line checks??
Anyway, try to dialup using the ISDN t/a and now i get 'unable to establish a connection' ...whereas before i at least could make some form of connection.


Confusing to say the least ...any ideas anyone??

towbar

First step would be to set up a dial up connection to your mobile or home phone number and then try to connect should at least ring that number - allows you to ensure the line is working and the ta is dialling the call

Eurorunner

Firstly, thanks for taking the time out to post here towbar.

First step would be to set up a dial up connection to your mobile or home phone number and then try to connect should at least ring that number - allows you to ensure the line is working and the ta is dialling the call

Ok, i tried to dialup a seperate phone line which is not far away from where this isdn line is - and also my mobile. 'unable to establish a connection' for both.

Tried to dialup utv/iol - for a while i wasnt even getting a connection - then later, i got connected to both (even though i dont think i changed any settings).

Results of connection from bandwidthplace.com speed test.

Connecting to iol via isdn:

Speed: 27.2kbps
Data D/L speed: 3.3kbps


Connecting to utvi via isdn:

Speed: 13.3kbps
Data D/L speed: 1.6kbps

Just for comparison sake, i also tried to dialup avm(germany) again ...it got as far as verifying user & pass..and got no further..but then maybe they changed the login details..?

Can verify the following:

Changed the cable - using brand new cable that came with the t/a.
Downloaded the latest drivers for the t/a again - just to be sure.


Any further troubleshooting tips would be most welcome.

towbar

did the mobile ring when you set it up as the dial up number?
Obviousily it wont establish a connection but it should ring.


Do you have a POTS modem in same machine - does it work?

Eurorunner

Originally posted by towbar
did the mobile ring when you set it up as the dial up number?
Obviousily it wont establish a connection but it should ring.

Neither the connection to the mobile or the other land-line resulted in the phone ringing.

Do you have a POTS modem in same machine - does it work?

I have a fully functioning POTS modem in the same machine that dials-up on this line successfully.


Eircom just left a half hour ago..they spent a good while checking it out..they did say that the line going into the isdn box is definitely weak - they're coming back tomorrow to try a new plug n play isdn box - see if that does the trick.

towbar

Surprised the mobile or phone didnt ring - well anyway that suggests the call request is not even been initiated but it must be an intermittent problem as you did get connected occasionally.

As you have tried two TA's sounds like a line problem. If you still have no joy when Eircom return make sure you get them to make ISDN calls using an ISDN phone - not on the pots lines from the box but on the actual ISDN line.

Eurorunner

Originally posted by towbar
If you still have no joy when Eircom return make sure you get them to make ISDN calls using an ISDN phone - not on the pots lines from the box but on the actual ISDN line.

Will do, thanks Towbar.

Eurorunner

According to the Eircom technician......................


The line is very weak when tested with it connected to the ISDN box. When not connected to the actual box, a test on the line shows that its ok??


He says that he has never come accross this before and is not sure what he can do about it.

I have heard some people mention stuff about wireless ISDN...i wonder would this make any difference??? Should i be making a case for this.

I'm 4 miles from the exchange - has this got anything to do with the problem?


Whilst they did send out a good technician and have been working with a purpose to sort it out, i get the impression that they will be sticking to the line that they cant put it right.

Any suggestions as to how to proceed?

bminish

You are entitled to ask that eircom do a 15 minute Bit error test, this is a digital test done from your premises and it should show NO errors whatsoever. None of the exchange side tests can do this test.

When using the line for voice do you get crackles and pops on occasion? this is a sure sign that the line is not up to snuff.

When you phone Eircom's fault departemnt and they test an ISDN line the are really only testing a few feet of wire in the exchange NOT the whole line to the house.

Does the software with either of your TA's allow you to do a loopback test, this can help diagnose what is going on.

presumably you gave the TA correctly configured for Euro ISDN and you are trying to make a 64kbs PPP digital connection.

Are you making your analog dial up connections through the ISDN plug and Play box? If so what speeds to you usually connect at and do you ever get dropped connections or long pauses ?

Brendan

Eurorunner

Originally posted by bminish You are entitled to ask that eircom do a 15 minute Bit error test, this is a digital test done from your premises and it should show NO errors whatsoever. None of the exchange side tests can do this test.

Will ask and see what sort of response i get to this.

Originally posted by bminish When using the line for voice do you get crackles and pops on occasion? this is a sure sign that the line is not up to snuff.

A fair bit of crackle and pop...but mainly due to electric fence interference...which is running 24/7.

Does the software with either of your TA's allow you to do a loopback test, this can help diagnose what is going on.

presumably you gave the TA correctly configured for Euro ISDN and you are trying to make a 64kbs PPP digital connection.
[/B]

Apparently a loopback test is possible with this TA - i havnt carried one out yet but will do so now and post results here.
The TA is configured for Euro ISDN to make a 64kbps - ive set it to negotiate line connection speed..

Are you making your analog dial up connections through the ISDN plug and Play box? If so what speeds to you usually connect at and do you ever get dropped connections or long pauses ?
[/B]

The analog dialup connection is going thru the plug n play box - connection speeds usually between 30-40kbps. No problems with disconnections really.

Thanks for posting Brendan.

Eurorunner

Ok i ran the isdn utility that came with the
TA card. The loopback test with 'Call type' set
to 'voice call' results in following:

HARDWARE = OK
D-CHANNEL = OK


LOOPBACK TEST WITH 'call type' set to 'data call':

HARDWARE = OK
D-CHANNEL = Connected......time is out
B-channel = Data transferring...(goes blank on timeout)




I dialed up via the regular network connection to utvip and
got the following results from the
bandwidthplace.com speed test:

8kbps
The isdn ta card manufacturers utility programme
showed that channel B1 was connected and ISDN SO actived
during this connection. UTVip only supports one channel connection
and i have the network connection setup to drop the other channel if it cant connect.

bminish

Originally posted by Eurorunner

A fair bit of crackle and pop...but mainly due to electric fence interference...which is running 24/7.

Since an ISDN line is digital, the snap crackle and pop are audible artifacts of digital errors on the line, a correctly working ISDN line should have no junk like this on it , electric fence or not..
This line will definitely fail the BER (Bit Error rate) test and you need eircom to get off their hands and fix the line fault(s)

Since ISDN lines are supposed to have extremely low (i.e none) error rates the Average TA has a ' nicker fit ' when faced with high error rates, Analog modems are more forgiving but have a lower throughput and higher latency of course.

Electric Fences can indeed induce noise onto lines BUT this is not your problem, let eircom deal with clearing up the line faults. Take a stern line with the buggers and whatever you do, don't accept a downgrade to analog lines. Betcha it's caused by bad Splice(es) or other similar sloppy rat work, It's always been crappy line work when my ISDN line goes faulty


BTW electric fences can cause problems for radio users (and even affect TV reception) too but I haven't yet met a fence that cannot be made completely electrically silent by repairing the joins so that it doesn't spark any more

Let us know how you get on

.Brendan

Eurorunner

Cheers Brendan.

Lets see if i can get a result out of eircom..

Eurorunner

The eircom technician rang me this morning and asked me to test it without power going to the plug in play box. Just ran it through bandwidthplace.com and got a consistent 61kbps speed rate.


Plugged the power back in - then ran the test:
6.5kbps

Clearly, the electrical interference is minimal when the power is disconnected. Can i take it that thats the problem resolved? or will i find that it will need to draw more power at some stage...



*Edit...i had the owner the electric fence switch it off for half an hour..ran another speed test and got 7.3kbps with the power plugged in....

bminish

Hi Eurorunner

The Plug and Play Box needs power to power the line(s) connected to it. Un-powered it is supposed to power Either one ISDN device or one analog device (depends on how it is configured) as an emergency backup in case of mains failure.

Keep plugging away with eircom until they actually fix the problem. the noise you hear represents digital errors on the line, there may nor may not be caused by electrical interference, in any case this isn't your problem. you are paying plenty to Eircom to provide you with working ISDN so Insist that they actually fix the problem!

In light of the un-powered test it is possible that the Plug and Play box is defective BUT in this case it is up to Eircom to make all necessary repairs in a timely manner since the line and the Plug and Play box are Eircom's responsibility.

I would not call it fixed until such time as Eircom have come around and done a 15 minute BER test showing no errors. I.E ask Eircom to demonstrate that the line is now working to Full ISDN spec.

Aren't Eircom Fun to deal with ;-)

I have found in the past that the best way to deal with things relating to ISDN with Eircom is to find out who is responsible in the local area and call Him/Her directly..

.Brendan

De Rebel

Originally posted by bminish
You are entitled to ask that eircom do a 15 minute Bit error test....

On two occasions when clients of mine had intractable problems with line quality on ISDN lines, I attempted to get eircom to run an on-site test. I met with a flat refusal. Is there a process (other than the usual screaming match) to get them to conduct such a test?

On both occasions I lugged the complete PC to another site, with TA still in place, and tested it unchanged on a "known to be good" line to eliminate pc/TA/configuration etc. errors. On one of these occasions it took a fax with sworn certification of the results of my "test" threatening a high-court injunction, liability for my costs, consequential damages and all that guff to get an engineer out. He replaced the "plug & play" box and instantly solved the problem.

bminish

Is there a process (other than the usual screaming match) to get them to conduct such a test?
[/qoute]

No not really, Persistence is the only way.
I find speaking very softly (sometimes though gritted teeth however..) , ALWAYS ask for the name and extension number of the person you are dealing with. At ANY sign of a lack of cooperation ask to speak to their supervisor (hold if you have to.. but don't expect a callback) at which point you can discuss the possibility of taking the matter up with the telecomms regulator (after of course getting the supervisor's name & extension #)

Usually gets things done eventually.

Make sure you get the local numbers of the person in charge of dealing with ISDN (or whatever else it is you have a problem with) as this often works best. Don't piss these guys off since often they can be pretty helpful and it's not their fault that everything is such a mess.

Frustrating isn't it ;-)

.Brendan

De Rebel

Originally posted by bminish
I find speaking very softly ......

Oh I always start off nice, and gradually work up to the agressive "well in that case can I speak to your supervisor/manager etc." The problem I've found specifically with ISDN is gettin them to acknowledge that a physical on-site test is possible and getting them to agree to do it. I once had a direct number of ISDN support (2nd level), but lost it and they have refused ever since to give it to me.

Originally posted by bminish
Make sure you get the local numbers of the person in charge of dealing with ISDN .....

I've managed to do this on a couple of occasions but its difficult to get those numbers. And I agree. Once you get past the Customer Service types, its quite often a plasure dealing witht he technicians. The problem is making the leap.

Eurorunner

Update....

Eircom came back and ran some more tests...with the power out, they get a zero bit error rate. With the power in, the meter clocks up bit errors consistently on tests run over 15 & 25 minutes. I saw this for myself so this is not bull$hit.

They reckon that its to do with the quality of the current thats feeding the box - its not consistent ie. has surges & troughs..
Have had electrical problems in the past so this is quite feasible. Although we are sharing a transformer with only one other household...

They may be back if they can come up with any other ways of troubleshooting this . ..
Dont think i want to go down the road of tackling yet another irish monopoly (ESB)...
Suppose i could look into using surge suppressors/ups gear ...but the proper gears very expensive right?

bminish

Your computer runs ok on your mains supply doesn't it?

Did the Eircom people try another Plug and Pray box to see if that fixed the problem ?

' Dirty power ' sounds like a cop out to me !
Are you located in the center of town or are you out a few miles?

A UPS might be a good idea if you are also having lots of problems with the computer but I would not buy one just to make Eircom kit work correctly!

Eurorunner

Originally posted by bminish
Your computer runs ok on your mains supply doesn't it?

Did the Eircom people try another Plug and Pray box to see if that fixed the problem ?

' Dirty power ' sounds like a cop out to me !
Are you located in the center of town or are you out a few miles?

A UPS might be a good idea if you are also having lots of problems with the computer but I would not buy one just to make Eircom kit work correctly!

Yes the computer and all other electrical items run ok on the mains supply. However, an electrician had said there were problems with the power supply here (cant elaborate more than that..). To the best of my knowledge, i believe its stronger than it should be - for example, i have an english tv running here without any probs daily whereas when it was used at another location, it blew every bulb in the house. That said, dont notice anything untoward with any of the electrical appliances here. I'm in a very rural area (4miles from small town) where demand would be low and we share a transformer with only one other household - surely 1 transformer for two households should be able to regulate power supply??

They tried another 'plug n pray' box without success.

This is Eircom and i am always on guard for the 'cop out' factor:rolleyes: - As one who would be quick to give them a hard time, i have to say that the technicians they have sent out have spent a good deal of time on this and genuinely seem to be making an effort to sort it out.

Would the fact that the line tests well without power for the BER test confirm for sure that the line is ok? They did also confirm that there is someone about a mile closer to the exchange with ISDN who hasnt had any problems.

bminish

The Plug and Pray box I have here is specified to run on anything between 100 to 240 V 50 or 60 Hz. that pretty much covers everything! I doubt dirty power is your problem, even if the load regulation is poor (& it can be in rural areas) the P7P box should be able to cope.

There are a couple of other things that might be worth trying

On the P&P box I have (Semens) there is a recessed switch near the place where the eircom line connects

this alters the termination impedance from 100 Ohms to off (un terminated) to 500 Ohms. it would be worth trying all 3 positions, I know mine (which is on an ISDN line with a repeater in it) is set to 100 Ohms

How much analog kit do you have connected to the P & P box ?

Basically everything up to AND including the P&P box is Eircom property it would seem a reasonable request that it work according to Spec.
If they can't get it working right perhaps they will give you a discount on the line rental ;-)

Eurorunner

Originally posted by bminish
The Plug and Pray box I have here is specified to run on anything between 100 to 240 V 50 or 60 Hz. that pretty much covers everything! I doubt dirty power is your problem, even if the load regulation is poor (& it can be in rural areas) the P7P box should be able to cope.

There are a couple of other things that might be worth trying

On the P&P box I have (Semens) there is a recessed switch near the place where the eircom line connects

this alters the termination impedance from 100 Ohms to off (un terminated) to 500 Ohms. it would be worth trying all 3 positions, I know mine (which is on an ISDN line with a repeater in it) is set to 100 Ohms

How much analog kit do you have connected to the P & P box ?

Basically everything up to AND including the P&P box is Eircom property it would seem a reasonable request that it work according to Spec.
If they can't get it working right perhaps they will give you a discount on the line rental ;-)

The plug n play box is also siemens kit here. I tried the different termination impedance settings;

Currently it is set with both switches down ie. closest to the number markings 1 & 2. - when i move the '2' switch up, i get 11kbps w power, 61kbps w/o power.
Both switches up = cant connect
switch '1' up = cant connect

Very little analog kit connected to the box..just a regular phone line and fax line. The line also feeds a credit card processing terminal prior to reaching the PnP box.

I would consider downgrading to two regular phone lines but naturally, thats the same price as ISDN with €ircon:rolleyes: I will ask them for the discount naturally but dont hold out much hope seeing as (rightly or wrongly) they are finding fault with the power supply and not their kit. I think i will see if i can get my hands on a ups somehow - for a day - just to eliminate the power thing from the line of enquiry..

Thanks for your help Brendan.

spongebob

buy cheap multimeter and stick into socket.

ESB should give you power in the range 200-242v (220v+-10%) at all times, there are no exceptions.

If the ESB supply goes out of this range then you may call the ESB with a fault. You should maybe buy a min/max capable multimeter to record the lowest and highest readings while it is plugged in to the socket. I get this problem about every 3 years, test my voltage range , ring em and they come out and throw hydraulic oil in a local transformer and fix it for another while.

Electric fences tend to cause persistent disconnects if they are in your area. It is caused by Improperly earthed electic fences ISTR. Every eircom engineer worth his salt has approached a farmer about one of these at some stage and helped the farmer to fix the issue or get rid of it. It is very common in rural areas but it can be heard clearly (like a metallic heartbeat when at rest) on an analogue line.

BTW , Eurorunner, This telly of yours that blows all the lightbulbs in the house jawzus thats a good one!

M

Eurorunner

Originally posted by Muck
buy cheap multimeter and stick into socket.

ESB should give you power in the range 200-242v (220v+-10%) at all times, there are no exceptions.

If the ESB supply goes out of this range then you may call the ESB with a fault. You should maybe buy a min/max capable multimeter to record the lowest and highest readings while it is plugged in to the socket. I get this problem about every 3 years, test my voltage range , ring em and they come out and throw hydraulic oil in a local transformer and fix it for another while.


M

Cheers Muck,

Will check this out.

Originally posted by Muck


BTW , Eurorunner, This telly of yours that blows all the lightbulbs in the house jawzus thats a good one!

I kid you not:D But then it is a 10 yr. old Dixons 'own brand' tv - the cheapest nastiest new tv i could get my hands on at the time..