Transgender Issues

LegacyUser

Forget surgery, the problem is in your head.As one surgeon said.."If someone came into me and said they were convinced they were Nelson I wouldn't cut off their arm to aid them in their delusion"

Stark

Originally posted by hooper
Forget surgery, the problem is in your head.As one surgeon said.."If someone came into me and said they were convinced they were Nelson I wouldn't cut off their arm to aid them in their delusion"

Eh no, modern scientific study has shown that gender identity is set whilst in the womb, so if someone grows up in life a transsexual then there is no psychological treatment that will "cure" them of this. On examination of the brain, you will find that the brains of transsexual men are physiologically identical to those of normal women, so it really is a case of a woman trapped in a man's body.

Big Chief

its posts like this that make you realise how fùcked up society is nowadays...

want the overwhelming evidence and facts, ok lets go -

1) you have a willy
2) you dont have breasts
3) you dont have a womb
4) you lack all the features that a woman body has
5) your screwed up in the head
6) you are a MALE

not enough for you yet? then i advise moving to America.... were you will fit in with social delinquents (sp?)

You have been dealt your cards, now play with them so to speak.

Typedef

So what, if the fella wants to give himself the chop.

It's no skin off of anybody else's nose.

*Skin off other places mind you.

But, seriously, so long as whoever doesn't break any of Ireland's laws, it's of no concern to anybody else what that person does 'actually'.

A fella wants to roll around in jelly, with ten men and plastic dolls... then that's up to him.
Want to give yourself the chop... again, that's your business.

Yup, I think it's quite strange to want to do that to yourself, but, honestly I don't much care what other people do, so long as they are (a) productive and thus don't incur taxes to me and (b) don't do bad things to other people. Since that effects me too.

Aside from that, who cares?

Big Chief

What business it is of yours whether he wants to be a guy or a girl?

Unfortunately "I dont believe" its anyone's choice to do so. You were born with what you have, as i have said previously

You have been dealt your cards, now play with them

ixoy

Originally posted by Big Chief
Unfortunately "I dont believe" its anyone's choice to do so. You were born with what you have, as i have said previously

Thankfully however your opinion is completely irrelevant and the poster can ignore it

And if you are "born with what you have" then do you believe that a child born with autism should not get special care? I mean they're born with it, so, y'know, tough luck! Should a child born into an abusive family be left there? I mean they were born into it - so they should live with it! The poster seems to have born into the wrong place as it were and should be allowed seek redress. Not everyone emerges from the womb as they might wish to. Or do you truly think they should just live miserably, in circumstances that don't suit them, just so your narrow world view is satisfied?

Typedef

Unfortunately "I dont believe" its anyone's choice to do so. You were born with what you have, as i have said previously

Err, I don't really agree with that sentiment.

For example, if onebody is treating you badly in a relationship, then that is not an issue which is exclusive to 'one' person, since it has impact on others. Thus a modus operandi can be extrapilated to say what is good and bad and expected in interpersonal relationships, because person (x)'s actions have an impact on person (y).

In the case of wanting a sex change, there is no person (y), unless you count the family of person (x), but, ultimately, whether I, you or person (x) wears an ear ring, has a sex change, or whatever, at the end of the day, only really impacts on the person in question.

Person (x)'s life, person (x)'s choice.
Nobody else's concern.

koneko

So what if you were born a certain way. People change things about themselves to improve their lives.

If a friend of yours was born with a huge nose and wanted to have surgery to improve his appearance. He's been teased all his life and feels this change would improve his lifestyle and happiness tenfold.

Would you judge him? You were born with that nose, you shouldn't change it. "It's the way things are". Not an ideal example I know but I'm trying to make a point

If you were in a situation where you were dreadfully unhappy with something, would you change it? Or would you just throw your hands up in the air and say "OH WELL! It's the way things are!".

No, you don't. You have one life. If you aren't happy with it, you change it. And you shouldn't have to be abused by others because of that choice. At the end of the day it's your life and you should do what makes you happy. Once your life is over that's it, so make the very best of it that you can while it's still here.

I'd like to know how far that logic extends by the way. If I was born with a hereditary disease, would you tell me to just give up and die? I mean, sure I was born with it, right?

[edit] to the original poster. If you ever want to talk or anything feel free to PM me.[/edit]

Cake Fiend

Big Chief, do you wear clothes?
You weren't born with them, surely it's unnatural for you to wear them.
Do you use Toothpaste? Deodorant? Hair gel? Do you shave?
These are all man-made products of scientific advance, surely immoral, you should be happy with the way you are naturally.
If you were born short-sighted, would you use glasses or contact lenses? Or maybe get laser eye surgery to improve your vision?
If you had a sibling that was born physically handicapped, would you expect them to 'play with the cards they were dealt with' without complaint?
I suppose you don't approve of the biologists and genetic engineers who create cures for viral and bacterial infections 'playing god' for our benefit?

This person feels there is something wrong with them. They weren't born in the right body. Modern science can change that for them, without harming anyone in the process - who are you to object to that?

Your ignorant, insensitive comments are not welcome here and reflect the kind of society that drives someone like the original poster to feeling that they are wrong or unnatural.

tribble

Big Chief sounds like he's muppet trapped in a boys body...:)

/wink;)

Clinical Waste

Originally posted by Big Chief
its posts like this that make you realise how fùcked up society is nowadays...

want the overwhelming evidence and facts, ok lets go -

1) you have a willy
2) you dont have breasts
3) you dont have a womb
4) you lack all the features that a woman body has
5) your screwed up in the head
6) you are a MALE

not enough for you yet? then i advise moving to America.... were you will fit in with social delinquents (sp?)

You have been dealt your cards, now play with them so to speak.

How do you know?
How do you know what she has?
(Could have internal female organs as yet undiscovered.)

Bit of s ****ing arrogant statement from a skirt wearer I think. (and yes I mena you "Scot-boy"
Tribble is on the money

Big Chief

And if you are "born with what you have" then do you believe that a child born with autism should not get special care? I mean they're born with it, so, y'know, tough luck!

tough luck? i think you misinterpret my comment, if he is autistic he does deserve special care, i dont know where i implied that he shouldnt have it.

My views on changing your gender/sex will stay, i believe in that yes what you were born with is what you have to deal with, its how you go about bringing happiness within yourself is the main thing, and personally i dont believe in all this 'im a girl stuck in a guys body' stuff for a second

If you had a sibling that was born physically handicapped, would you expect them to 'play with the cards they were dealt with' without complaint?

if i had a child who was handicapped, whether that be mentally or physically i would want them to be happy with who they are, and to get the most out of life with what they have.

I'd like to know how far that logic extends by the way. If I was born with a hereditary disease, would you tell me to just give up and die? I mean, sure I was born with it, right?

no i wouldnt tell you to give up and die, unfortunately thats the way it was to be if that was the case, i would want you to get the most out of life that you could.

So what if you were born a certain way. People change things about themselves to improve their lives.

Listen, i dont agree with sex changes, and i think this whole 'woman stuck in a mans body' is a whole of baloney.. Yes i agree people change things in life to make it more enjoyable, i have done this and i feel better within myself for doing so.

Thankfully however your opinion is completely irrelevant and the poster can ignore it

good stuff, ignore me if you wish, try ignoring the hundreds/thousands of people on the street who will be 100 times worse than i am. I wouldnt see them as irrelevant as i believe alot of people will share my views world wide.

Person (x)'s life, person (x)'s choice.
Nobody else's concern.

correctimundo. Not my concern, my opinion

Big Chief, do you wear clothes?
You weren't born with them, surely it's unnatural for you to wear them.
Do you use Toothpaste? Deodorant? Hair gel? Do you shave?
These are all man-made products of scientific advance, surely immoral, you should be happy with the way you are naturally.

If you cant see the difference between getting your body chopped up and using health products to keep your body healthy then im not going to be bothered to argue with this.

How do you know?
How do you know what she has?
(Could have internal female organs as yet undiscovered.)

Maybe because its physically impossible...... you give me facts of one proven case like this and i will actually listen to you and argue against it... until then i think i will stick to what i know, and that is guys have a "guys body" and women have theirs.

Oh and the original poster is a HE not a she..

Bit of s ****ing arrogant statement from a skirt wearer I think. (and yes I mena you "Scot-boy"

how original...

Big Chief sounds like he's muppet trapped in a boys body...

I have my views, class me as a 'muppet' if you wish, but my views are mine and i will stick by them

koneko

If you cant see the difference between getting your body chopped up and using health products to keep your body healthy then im not going to be bothered to argue with this.

The mind/brain is an organ too. It needs to stay healthy. If being in a certain physical state is making someone depressed then why should it be a problem if they want to fix it?

Or are you one of those people that doesn't "believe in mental illness" either.

good stuff, ignore me if you wish, try ignoring the hundreds/thousands of people on the street who will be 100 times worse than i am. I wouldnt see them as irrelevant as i believe alot of people will share my views world wide.

So what, that just means there's a lot more ignorant people out there. That doesn't prove your point at all.

There's people out there that believe murder and rape are "okay", that doesn't mean they're right.

The funny thing is, people used to have the same opinions you do, but about gay people. That is changing. Expect this to change aswell. If you don't like it, you'd better start work on that time machine.

Big Chief

The mind/brain is an organ too. It needs to stay healthy. If being in a certain physical state is making someone depressed then why should it be a problem if they want to fix it?

and changing gender makes it more healthy why exactly? this is something that cant be sorted out without getting yer gonads chopped off why?

Or are you one of those people that doesn't "believe in mental illness" either.

yes i believe in mental illness, even some other things i class as mental illness that others wouldnt (alcoholism, drug addiction etc..)

So what, that just means there's a lot more ignorant people out there. That doesn't prove your point at all.

I wasnt trying to prove a point by that comment, i was just saying my views are timid compared to alot of others that you will encounter in this world

Oh by the way, I recommend you watch Boys Don't Cry.

Excellent film, very moving, and very disturbing. You might learn a thing or two.

duly noted and will look into it next time im in xtra-vision

Big Chief

and i really hate quote wars!! :rolleyes:

oh well....

b3t4

Originally posted by Big Chief

i dont believe in all this 'im a girl stuck in a guys body' stuff for a second

It's not about wheither you believe it or not is is about the person themselves that is going through it. If a person believes that their gender is incorrect then why would it seem ludicrous for a person to correct their outward appearance??

i would want them to be happy with who they are, and to get the most out of life with what they have.

People that are mentally or physically diasbled would proberally like to have the oppurtunity to "fix" what is wrong with them if they had the choice. People that are trapped in a body that doesn't fit have that oppurtunity.

i would want you to get the most out of life that you could.

This poster can get the most out of their lives for themselves if they are allowed to explore who they truly believe themselves to be.

your body chopped up

It's surgery.

until then i think i will stick to what i know, and that is guys have a "guys body" and women have theirs.

That is not necessarily true. Babies can be born with both sets of sexual organs. (I forget the medical term for this) It is usual up to the parents to decide how they want to bring up the child in these cases. The doctor, afair, would then alter the outward sexual organs to reflect the parents decision and the child would have to undergo a course of hormone treatments.

my views are mine and i will stick by them

I respect your views for they are your opinion but I do find them to be flawed.

Rgds,
A.

edit to fix quotes

Typedef

I don't necessarily 'believe' the mantra about being a girl stuck in a guy's body, but, really, I don't care if someone wants to do the chop.

That's really their issue and I couldn't be bothered trying to convert someone over because (a) I don't care (b) I'm not so sure they aren't right and (c) I still don't care.

Let somebody be transgender, not my problem and in fact, fair play to them if that's what they want to do. I may find the idea a little wierd, but, so what?


Where I see you going with this argument Big Chief is that people shouldn't be allowed to have sex change surgery, which I think is very, authoritarian.

Just because I don't want a thing (or think a thing is particularly healthy), in the main, doesn't mean I should proslatise others on my position about that, since another's position doesn't affect (a) me or (b) anybody else.

Anyway enough of this logic trolling.

sceptre

Originally posted by Big Chief
Unfortunately "I dont believe" its anyone's choice to do so. You were born with what you have, as i have said previously

I was going to argue with this but it's been pretty much demolished anyway IMHO.

koneko's pretty much sad anything I would have said here (kudos)

It's what makes you most happy in the end (like so many things) that counts most.

smiles

Split from the other thread because this is much more of an opinion thread happening that personal advice.

Moved to Humanities.

<< Fio >>

simu

I've often wondered what ppl mean when they say that they are a man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa as well. I am a woman physically but I have no idea what it "feels like to be a woman" or what "being womanly" is, let alone "what it feels like to be a man".

The closest I can get would be to say that, for example, having a period must be something that is womanly because it is something that only happens to women. But that's a very minor part of life, hardly defining.

I don't understand what it is exactly those who undergo gender-altering surgery wish to achieve. It may be that they wish to be perceived by others and by themselves as members of the opposite sex. Or that they like the roles associated with the opposite sex and feel closer to them than the roles imposed on their own sex. These seem to be superficial considerations however, based on relatively narrow stereotypes and on appearance.

And, once a person has undergone surgery, how can they be sure that they really do have the right body? Plastic surgery technniques may be very advanced by now but how can they be sure that surgically created genitalia feel the same as the natural version? (Does anybody who has under gone it go "Err, actually, maybe I should have stayed with my original gender after all":) )

I'm not against this type of surgery - let ppl modify themselves until they are not even recognisable as human beings anymore if they wish - but I would like to know what exactly ppl mean when they claim to have the "incorrect" body. In newspaper interviews etc, this is taken as a given, as something a person "intuitively" knows. Where do ppl get these intuitions, though? It's possible that these thought processes take place at a subconscious level - what leads to such thought processes being formed?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by k.oriordan
Eh no, modern scientific study has shown that gender identity is set whilst in the womb, so if someone grows up in life a transsexual then there is no psychological treatment that will "cure" them of this.

Modern scientific study has shown nothing. It has put forward evidence supporting one view. Other studies will contradict this. It is the nature of modern scientific study.

Originally posted by hooper
Forget surgery, the problem is in your head.As one surgeon said.."If someone came into me and said they were convinced they were Nelson I wouldn't cut off their arm to aid them in their delusion"

I personally know one chap who wanted to become a girl. I used to be his manager (she prefers now to be referred in the feminine) a few years back, and I kept in contact long after leaving the company in question.

I went for lunch with her a year later and for a minute didn’t recognise her. But ultimately once I did, as much as I tried, I still saw the same guy I knew from before. Only with tits. Huge tits. Seriously - apparently as a man she never appreciated the balance required to run down a flight of stairs.

So from my own observation, I’d consider this more a psychological than neurological disorder that would manifest itself in the use of self-mutilation and chemical abuse to produce the outward appearance of another gender.

But then again, so what? If by cutting off a man’s arm and addressing him as admiral you make him happy, then what’s the harm really?

After all, we harm ourselves though alcohol, drugs, tobacco or fried food every day for personal fulfilment. Some people get a dirty big tattoo slapped onto their foreheads as a fashion or social statement too. And some will go to war. Happens all the time. Go figure. What a masochistic little species we are.

So if you want to dress up like a sissy, pump oestrogen into your body, grow tits and invert your John Thomas then so be it. If it makes you happy and it does not affect anyone else, either directly or indirectly, then I’ve personally no objection.

Just don’t talk about it - you’ll just upset my John Thomas...

Annasopra

originally posted by simu

(Does anybody who has under gone it go "Err, actually, maybe I should have stayed with my original gender after all"

I would presume that anyone who is undergoing this would be required to go through extensive counselling to make sure they are 101% sure about going ahead

Stark

I was wondering - are there any cases where despite extensive counselling the person feels like they've made a mistake following the operation?

Nevyn

part of the process requires the person to live as a year as the gender they feel they are.

This can cause a lot of proplems and in some cases this is done before horrormoan treatment begins.

There was recently a case of a teacher in the UK
who was dismissed beacuse he was purusing the path to becoming a woman and started turing up dressed as a female
with make up ect to teach. It was deemed that he would give the wrong impressions to his students who were 14 to 18.