Might this do something about the price-fixing pubs?

sovtek

I posted this in the Rip Off Ireland forum, which to my surprise isn't all that active.

chill

Originally posted by sovtek
I posted this in the Rip Off Ireland forum, which to my surprise isn't all that active.

Your idea is dumb.

What you CAN do is to work to get Irish people off our fat arses instead of always whinging about this subject.

Irish people are getting ripped of at every turn because they don't bother their arses travelling to cheaper placs to shop and making ti clear to overchangers.

I lost count of people I used to ask about what they paid for their petrol the last time they filled up - and they didn't know. Yet they were constantly whinging about expensive petrol.

The same goes for music CDs. All I hear is whinging whinging about prics yet people are still prepared to pay the rediculous prices being chanrged in many shops.

if the pubs ARE fixing the price then get some people together and do what one guy did on ie.general awhile back on petrol..... create a web site with drink prices updated every week for as many pubs in your area you can manage.

if they stay the same then kep sending in the info to the Competition Authority.

dahamsta

Your idea is dumb.

No it's not. It's not thought through brilliantly, but isn't it a good thing that he's putting in a little effort, thinking about it, trying to come up with a way of addressing the situation?

What you CAN do is to work to get Irish people off our fat arses instead of always whinging about this subject.

Isn't that what the user is doing? Is that what the user is /trying/ to do? The suggestion might be a bit naive, but calling the users idea "dumb" is hardly constructive.

Irish people are getting ripped of at every turn because they don't bother their arses travelling to cheaper placs to shop and making ti clear to overchangers.

Will you cover the cost of our petrol? Or maybe Mary Harney will? The problem is endemic, almost across the board. Shopping around is part of the answer, but it needs to be handled at a regulatory level too.

The same goes for music CDs. All I hear is whinging whinging about prics yet people are still prepared to pay the rediculous prices being chanrged in many shops.

This is a different topic entirely. The price of CD's is fixed by the labels and it's very hard to compete on price unless you buy in enormous bulk (Virgin, HMV, etc). In fact, even the special offers you see are often sold at a loss for clearance. This really does need to be addressed at a regulatory level - in fact it has, and the labels lost.

if the pubs ARE fixing the price then get some people together and do what one guy did on ie.general awhile back on petrol..... create a web site with drink prices updated every week for as many pubs in your area you can manage.

This guy's got his idea, you've got yours. I'd be happy to host the site, will you do the updating work?

if they stay the same then kep sending in the info to the Competition Authority.

Pffff. The CA can't even tackle Eircom!

adam

sovtek

Originally posted by chill
Your idea is dumb.

My that's constructive.

What you CAN do is to work to get Irish people off our fat arses instead of always whinging about this subject.

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. This is one idea I'm putting forth in regards to that and also asked people to post suggestions.

Irish people are getting ripped of at every turn because they don't bother their arses travelling to cheaper placs to shop and making ti clear to overchangers.

When every pub charges prices well over what they were when the Euro came in, what good is that going to do?
Incidentally, I don't have a car and even if I did am I supposed to drive outside the city and then drive back home loaded?

I lost count of people I used to ask about what they paid for their petrol the last time they filled up - and they didn't know. Yet they were constantly whinging about expensive petrol.

Cheapest price I can get for pint of decent Heineken is €4 in Dame Tavern (one night was €3.90 in Turks Head but they serve piss). That's as low as it goes in my area and where I often drink. That's still €0.50
more than the most expensive pint before the Euro changover. Again, listing prices on a website does very little in my opinion. Pubs are supposed to display their prices anyway

The same goes for music CDs. All I hear is whinging whinging about prics yet people are still prepared to pay the rediculous prices being chanrged in many shops.

Ref dahamsta reply...

if the pubs ARE fixing the price then get some people together and do what one guy did on ie.general awhile back on petrol..... create a web site with drink prices updated every week for as many pubs in your area you can manage.



if they stay the same then kep sending in the info to the Competition Authority.

That's done wonders in reg. to insurance.
While I appreciate your suggestions I'm still wondering why you are asking me to do these things while you're not botherin' your arse?

sovtek

Originally posted by dahamsta No it's not. It's not thought through brilliantly, but isn't it a good thing that he's putting in a little effort, thinking about it, trying to come up with a way of addressing the situation?

Thanks. The reason I posted it was because I knew that it was half-baked and wanted to get suggestions from people.
In the Rip-Off Ireland forum I've only got one guy (who seems to own or manage a pub) trying to tell me that we aren't being ripped off.

BKtje

That's still €0.50
more than the most expensive pint before the Euro changover

VAT or whatever tax on alcohol has risen surely since the changeover..or did you already take this into consideration.

On another note, it was joy to only pay €3.40 for a pint in wesport compared to €4.10 in Dun Laoghaire. We put it down to cheaper insurance,rent etc but im sure there was more to it than that.

Wook

and 'Chill' is now officially set on Ice..until further notice.

sovtek

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
VAT or whatever tax on alcohol has risen surely since the changeover..or did you already take this into consideration.

On another note, it was joy to only pay €3.40 for a pint in wesport compared to €4.10 in Dun Laoghaire. We put it down to cheaper insurance,rent etc but im sure there was more to it than that.

There has only been one increase on beer since the euro changeover. It doesn't account for the huge increase in beer prices.
Tax would also not account for the extortionate prices for splits (Coke, Tonic, Red Bull...etc.)
As far as being cheaper in Westport and Dun Loaghiare... Cost of living is cheaper out of the city. They've still increased dramatically out of the city from what they were before the Euro.

Sand

If you keep on paying it the barman will keep on charging you it . Hes not your friend, hes a business man and if people stop coming up to him and giving him, say, Eur 4.50 a pint then hell stop thinking about increasing it and may start thinking about bringing it down again.

If the price of drinking is increasing its because barmen know people will pay it all other conspiracy theories aside.

Kell

Originally posted by B-K-DzR


On another note, it was joy to only pay €3.40 for a pint in wesport compared to €4.10 in Dun Laoghaire. We put it down to cheaper insurance,rent etc but im sure there was more to it than that.

Quite the contrary. Ground rent in Westport is very high as a result of the tourist boom it gets every summer, and essentially its only a summer town. Insurance is the same for businesses across the board irrelevant of location methinks.

What I could never understand is how you can walk into a pub somewhere in the back arse of no-where, where theres no-one in the pub and top figures might get up to about twenty on a Friday night, yet they still manage to turn a profit without charging a fiver a pint.

Bahh

sovtek

Originally posted by Sand
If you keep on paying it the barman will keep on charging you it . Hes not your friend, hes a business man and if people stop coming up to him and giving him, say, Eur 4.50 a pint then hell stop thinking about increasing it and may start thinking about bringing it down again.

When the barman's friend is the current government and the barman owns most of the outlets for social gathering in Ireland, then yes he is going to keep on charging it (of course a drop of %20 in sales has yet to see prices drop, what kind of business acumen does it take to be a bar owner I wonder?).
If, on the other hand, you had a government that was proactive in creating competition and updating it's Victorian Era licensing laws (to further create competition, and stop treating adults as children) then yes... he'll not only have to stop charging as much he'll actually have to actively pursue your custom.
Bar owners are very rarely millionares in the rest of the world.

sovtek

*SIGH*!
Again, is anyone actually interested in helping pursue this idea or have better suggestions ?(not argue that we aren't getting ripped off, or argue against so called "conspiracy theories")

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
Thanks. The reason I posted it was because I knew that it was half-baked and wanted to get suggestions from people.
In the Rip-Off Ireland forum I've only got one guy (who seems to own or manage a pub) trying to tell me that we aren't being ripped off.

Thats me I guess and I'm not involved in the pub trade anymore I was managing a pub.

People if you go to the thread http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108264

you will see my defence of the NORMAL publican is quite just.

Don't forget SOVTEK said he wanted to object to EVERY licence that includes the guys selling a pint for under 3.40.

As I posted I think Sovtek is looking at this problem in a far too generalised way.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by sovtek
*SIGH*!
Again, is anyone actually interested in helping pursue this idea or have better suggestions ?(not argue that we aren't getting ripped off, or argue against so called "conspiracy theories")

I think the idea of the website with prices was good. If for example, everyone made a point of switching to the pub with even only marginally cheaper prices in a given town, then prices would have to come down in the other pubs simply because there would be no money to made by charging higher prices.

In cases of actual price fixing - where all the prices in a town are exactly the same, there is nothing you can do. However, there are usually minor variations and the idea would be to drive a wedge into them.

The difficulty, of course, is that most people don't give a toss and don't care how much they pay for beer.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
Thats me I guess and I'm not involved in the pub trade anymore I was managing a pub.

You stated that you recently attended a VFI meeting?
Might your change of career have been before or after the Euro came into being?
If so then you can't really comment from experience on price-fixing or profiteering.

People if you go to the thread http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108264

you will see my defence of the NORMAL publican is quite just.

And you'll see that I debunked that assertion.

Don't forget SOVTEK said he wanted to object to EVERY licence that includes the guys selling a pint for under 3.40.

Yup because (as I also said there) that's way more than what they were before the Euro.

As I posted I think Sovtek is looking at this problem in a far too generalised way.

That very well may be the case, but as I've seen, every pub has raised their prices well over what they were before the Euro.
And if there are some pub owners that haven't been profiteering then they should have pressured the many that do (because it's going to effect them in the long run as well) within the Vintners Association.

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
You stated that you recently attended a VFI meeting?
Might your change of career have been before or after the Euro came into being?
If so then you can't really comment from experience on price-fixing or profiteering.

I finished 2 months ago and I attended the meeting a week before I finished does that clarify it for ya

Originally posted by sovtek

And you'll see that I debunked that assertion.

Yup because (as I also said there) that's way more than what they were before the Euro.

No you didn't you just kept looking at this problem in a single minded view. You want to object to every licence so that includes the pubs in my town selling a pint for 3.00 and 3.10, as well as those selling it for 4.50 and higher in other towns.

You should really come back with some figures to justify your argument.

Originally posted by sovtek

That very well may be the case, but as I've seen, every pub has raised their prices well over what they were before the Euro.
And if there are some pub owners that haven't been profiteering then they should have pressured the many that do (because it's going to effect them in the long run as well) within the Vintners Association.

Well I think you'l find drink is not the only thing to have gone up since the euro, all the day to day running costs have also gone up. You seriously think one publican is going to listen to another when he asks them to drop there prices?? Get in the real world man

sceptre

Originally posted by sovtek
You stated that you recently attended a VFI meeting?
Might your change of career have been before or after the Euro came into being?

IMHO you're getting too bogged down in the euro changeover. There certainly were quite a few businesses (not just pubs) that took advantage of the euro switchover. That was eighteen months ago though. The price increases are still coming.

dahamsta

Just came across this:

Pint Price League Table for Dublin

adam

bonkey

Originally posted by dahamsta
Just came across this:

Pint Price League Table for Dublin

Nice to see one of my old locals (The Beggar's) come out first in one category and second in the other. Always thought it was cheap. Good Guinness too, from what I recall.

In fairness to sovtek's idea, I think a slight refinement would do away with Irish1's main objection (that being a blanket tergetting).

Surely the first step would be to figure out a way of determining what a reasonable price would be (bearing in mind that a myriad of factors are arguably valid considerations here), and from there using something like sovtek's approach to target the offenders. More complex to implement, as it would require research - and the more accurate it was to be, the more research would be required, as well as the more communication to disperse the information.

Of course, the benefits of the blanket approach are that it is far simpler to implement and that it is ultimately targetting the underlying cause of the problem - that being the government themselves. If the public are being unfairly ripped off, it is because the bodies we have in place to prevent such occurrences are somehow failing to do their job.

Ultimately, sovtek's idea could prove more effective in terms of precipitating systematic change, while not being as effective in precipitating case-by-case change. I guess it would depend on which method you think would be a better path to tread.

jc

Villain

Originally posted by bonkey

In fairness to sovtek's idea, I think a slight refinement would do away with Irish1's main objection (that being a blanket tergetting).

Yes if he went after those that are chraging rediciously high prices I would lend a hand myself

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1

No you didn't you just kept looking at this problem in a single minded view. You want to object to every licence so that includes the pubs in my town selling a pint for 3.00 and 3.10, as well as those selling it for 4.50 and higher in other towns.

And what was a pint in "your" town before the Euro? What are the prices of splits in this altriustic town of yours? What might this town be called?

You should really come back with some figures to justify your argument.

Already did. Telling me a pint is 3 (which is a bit less than 3.40 that you quoted before and 3.10 is a completely new figure.) doesn't say anything about how much they've increased prices or their profit margin.
Others have provided examples that don't support your argument either. I'll let you disseminate that one for yourself.

Well I think you'l find drink is not the only thing to have gone up since the euro, all the day to day running costs have also gone up.

Their prices went up (and I've said this a few times) the day that business did not have to post in both currencies anymore. That doesn't support your argument.
Furthermore running costs in relation to profits don't justify the serious increases Ireland has seen.
I'm all for getting involved in pressuring the government to create competition as well as update the draconian drink laws in Ireland as well. But I'm not going to accept that most pubs aren't gouging prices and then sit back and do nothing about it. Your welcome to though
Anyway, as I said before, I'm not going to do a back and forth with ya about wether or not we are getting ripped off.
Most people comprehend that we are.

You seriously think one publican is going to listen to another when he asks them to drop there prices??

If they want to avoid the backlash that's already rearing its head...yes.
That's if, as you claim, that pub owners aren't stupid.

Get in the real world man

And my advice to you is to work on your comprehension skills.

seamus

Originally posted by dahamsta
if the pubs ARE fixing the price then get some people together and do what one guy did on ie.general awhile back on petrol..... create a web site with drink prices updated every week for as many pubs in your area you can manage.

This guy's got his idea, you've got yours. I'd be happy to host the site, will you do the updating work?

adam

You fecker, you've got me going. And I have to study.

I can write the backend for a directory for the entire country (in a few weeks time). All we need are a good few dedicated update helpers and people willing to fire in their prices.

And also someone to register a domain name

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
And what was a pint in "your" town before the Euro? What are the prices of splits in this altriustic town of yours? What might this town be called?

Telling me a pint is 3 (which is a bit less than 3.40 that you quoted before and 3.10 is a completely new figure.) doesn't say anything about how much they've increased prices or their profit margin.

The town is Tullow in Co. Carlow and there is 13 pubs in the town and the prices range from 3.00 to 3.40.
Splits range from 2 to 2.25

Originally posted by sovtek

Furthermore running costs in relation to profits don't justify the serious increases Ireland has seen.

Prices have risen about 20 to 30 cent over the last year and a half. Excessive??

Originally posted by sovtek

Anyway, as I said before, I'm not going to do a back and forth with ya about wether or not we are getting ripped off.
Most people comprehend that we are.

I agree we are been ripped off by some Pubs, BUT NOT ALL.

Originally posted by sovtek

And my advice to you is to work on your comprehension skills.

lol I won't reply to stupid personal insults like that, Fact of the matter is I'm pointing out arguments based on working in the Pub trade for 8 years, so whether you like them or not they are true and to the point, your argument is a generalised one based on no facts other than you feel hard done by.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by irish1
Prices have risen about 20 to 30 cent over the last year and a half. Excessive??

I think so, yes. If these were typical price rises outside of drink, we'd be in severe economic difficulty.

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
Prices have risen about 20 to 30 cent over the last year and a half. Excessive??

What was the rate of inflation at the same period?
I would have said in the region of 3.5 to 5%....which makes a 4-to-8-fold comparative increase excessive indeed.

jc

Villain

Originally posted by bonkey
What was the rate of inflation at the same period?
I would have said in the region of 3.5 to 5%....which makes a 4-to-8-fold comparative increase excessive indeed.

jc

Well I don't think it was excessive on the owners part, VFI actually wanted a higher increase which some publicans did do.

The profit the publican is making now is not higher than that before the euro, (I'm referring to my home town).

Suppliers have hit the publicans with a few rises in that period, Insurance has risen dramatically much more than the rate of inflation.

I honestly can say before I finished working we were not making anymore money than we were 2 years ago.

SkepticOne

Insurance. Maybe that is where the real problem is.

sovtek

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Insurance. Maybe that is where the real problem is.

Insurance definitely needs to be reformed. More companies should be allowed from within the EU as well as more competing Irish companies.
Still, in regards to pubs.
Someone in another thread gave an example of insurance inflation.

3 years ago they paid €9000 annually.
Now they pay €40000.

Now lets do some math.
€9000 / 365 = 24.66
€40000 / 365 = 109.60
109.60 - 24.66 = 84.94

If that example is reflective of most pubs then they would only have to come up with 84.94 A DAY more.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1

I honestly can say before I finished working we were not making anymore money than we were 2 years ago. [/B]

No one said that they were going to make more money by excessively increasing prices.
The more you raise the price, the less people will buy. That is why the serious price hike doesn't make much business sense at all.
It's why sales are down %20.
It's why inflating prices across the board is a bad business move.
The only way to facilitate that is if you have a monopoly or cartel.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
The town is Tullow in Co. Carlow and there is 13 pubs in the town and the prices range from 3.00 to 3.40.
Splits range from 2 to 2.25

How many people own those 13 pubs?
Still doesn't answer how much they were before the Euro.

Prices have risen about 20 to 30 cent over the last year and a half. Excessive??

Hectically...that's a %7-11 increase. Well above inflation.

I agree we are been ripped off by some Pubs, BUT NOT ALL.

By your own stats your former employer is one of them.

lol I won't reply to stupid personal insults like that,

Even though that's exaclty what your doing. That statement ignores that you made an attempt to insult me in the first place. I'll call off the dogs if you will.

Fact of the matter is I'm pointing out arguments based on working in the Pub trade for 8 years, so whether you like them or not they are true and to the point, your argument is a generalised one based on no facts other than you feel hard done by.

Your facts actually support my assertions.

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
How many people own those 13 pubs?

13 different people

Originally posted by sovtek

Still doesn't answer how much they were before the Euro.
?

Well a pint of the black stuff was 3.10

Originally posted by sovtek

By your own stats your former employer is one of them.

No our overheads were quite large we weren't naking a major profit

Originally posted by sovtek

Your facts actually support my assertions.

Don't think so I just told we weren't making larger profits does that support your assertions.

I think you should try and go after those that are charging over 4.00 a pint, I'l even help you.