Jam Fianna Fáil

dahamsta

Would be interested in opinions on the merits of a campaign to jam Fianna Fáil's election campaign at the local elections next year, or the general elections in 2005/6. By "jam" I mean things like:

- following candidates and canvassers around with pickets;
- going to council meetings and asking difficult questions;
- heckling speeches;
- writing to newspapers to refute columnists and supporters;
- publishing campaign donations (opensecrets);
- etc (suggestions welcome).

There are other more subversive things that could be done, such as catching them on film with their girlfriends or their hand in the cookie jar, but it's probably best not to discuss them here.

Again, this isn't a troll and I'm not looking for a flame war, I have absolutely no interest in discussion the reasons /behind/ the suggestion.

adam

Sparks

A part of me is wondering "why wait"...

gandalf

- following candidates and canvassers around with pickets;

I can see this being counter productive really.

- going to council meetings and asking difficult questions;
- heckling speeches;
- writing to newspapers to refute columnists and supporters;
- publishing campaign donations (opensecrets);
- etc (suggestions welcome).

Well I would have considered these a given anyway in a democracy. Council meetings are places where difficult and relevant questions should be tabled.

Heckling speechs providing you have a firm and valid message is also good.

Writing to newspapers again is a good form of decocratic protest (providing you get published).

Publishing campaign donations should be a given anyway. Personally I'd prefer money allocated from Government depending on the size of your parties share of the vote and no outside donations.

Gandalf.

There are other more subversive things that could be done, such as catching them on film with their girlfriends or their hand in the cookie jar, but it's probably best not to discuss them here.

Again, this isn't a troll and I'm not looking for a flame war, I have absolutely no interest in discussion the reasons /behind/ the suggestion.

adam [/B][/QUOTE]

DMC

Originally posted by dahamsta
- following candidates and canvassers around with pickets;

If this is organised by a particular focus group or opposition party, this will result have negative reaction to that organisation. Yes, you'll annoy the candidates and canvassers, but you'd piss off prospective voters more.

Originally posted by dahamsta
There are other more subversive things that could be done, such as catching them on film with their girlfriends or their hand in the cookie jar, but it's probably best not to discuss them here.

And that is a tatic more becoming of a British tabloid than anything else, you wont win supporters that way. You might stop people from voting for them, but not necessarily for the competition.

dahamsta

I can see this being counter productive really.

Possibly, possibly not. See below.

Well I would have considered these a given anyway in a democracy.

Absolutely, but usually these things are done with the secondary purpose of puffing up another party or candidate. My suggestion is that campaigners do away with that completely and concentrate solely on keeping Fianna Fáil candidates out of seats. I was thinking the word "anti-partisan" might be appropriate, but it has unwelcome associations.

My thinking is that there are other people like me that are interested in politics and keen to get involved, but aren't willing to commit to a single opposition party because of their inability to assert themselves. Of course it's possible that an activist could support two political parties, but it's an awkward prospect, and not something I personally could feel passionate about.

What I could get very passionate about is making sure that Fianna Fáil doesn't get into power. Very passionate indeed. Why waste it?

EDIT DMC, this is why it's far less likely to be counter-productive: We wouldn't be looking for supporters. It's possible that people might vote Fianna Fáil to spite the campaigners, but I'm not sure how likely that is. That's one of things I'm interested in, in fact.

adam

Victor

Jamming there constituency meetings might work better.

Heckling doesn't actually do much other than make you look like a nutter.

Originally posted by gandalf
Well I would have considered these a given anyway in a democracy. Council meetings are places where difficult and relevant questions should be tabled.

Dublin city council chamber (52 councillors) has a gallery for about 10 people ...

gandalf

Originally posted by Victor
Dublin city council chamber (52 councillors) has a gallery for about 10 people ...

LOL Irish Democracy in action I love it.

"Shaddup you vile peasants I'm trying to get my expenses cleared "

Gandalf.

sceptre

Originally posted by gandalf
"Shaddup you vile peasants I'm trying to get my expenses cleared "

Funny because it's true:D

As you can expect, I like this idea, even if all it does is make a small number of people actually think about what they're doing - and especially if it does more. I'll give it a little thought and come back with a proper post.

BKtje

following candidates and canvassers around with pickets

Wouldn't this be seen as some form of harrasment?

dahamsta

Originally posted by B-K-DzR
Wouldn't this be seen as some form of harrasment?

They're travelling down a public road, you're travelling down a public road. With a sympathetic judge (politically speaking), they might be able to get a barring order against you, but then you're on some very nasty free speech ground indeed. Terrible publicity, which is very hard to direct at the protestors. And of course you can negate all this by using flash mobs - no name, no barring order.

adam

Sparks

Wouldn't this be seen as some form of harrasment?

Harrassment of a politician by following them around ... as they go to people's houses and try to solicit their vote.
Hmmm.
You know, I don't think that harrassment is the right word here...

And of course you can negate all this by using flash mobs

Oooo, a use for flash mobs ....

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Sparks
Oooo, a use for flash mobs ....

What colour shirts would they wear?

gandalf

Originally posted by SkepticOne
What colour shirts would they wear?

I'd assume they were naked - flash mobs geddit, ok sorry I'll get my coat

Gandalf.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by gandalf
I'd assume they were naked - flash mobs geddit, ok sorry I'll get my coat

Well it would certainly have an impact.

Sparks

<hands gandalf his coat, then kicks him out the door>
Grrr.

For the confused, that's not what a flash mob actually is!
(BTW, am I the only one thinking that Larry Niven is getting the shaft by not getting the credit for this idea?)

gollem_1975

instead of following the FF guys around and implementing your suggestions vis-a-vis jamming/harassing his/her campaign .. I think that your resources would be put to better use if you were to run in the election yourself as an independent or for an alternative party.

my 2c

Elmo

Are the opposition not supposed to do this?

Anyway if FF don't get elected we will have FG and then will just have to do the same thing again in 5 years time just with the same party under a different Angalised name.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Elmo
Are the opposition not supposed to do this?

I doubt if it is illegal so long as there is no obstruction or physical harassment. However, it would be considered bad form and would work against the interests of the party carrying out such actions. I suppose there must be an understanding between parties that they concentrate on their own canvassing rather than try and undermine the canvassing of others.

Obviously, if a party did organise 'flash mobs' or some such, inevitably parallels with fascist techniques would be raised regardless of whether they are justified.

I think what dahamsta is suggesting is that there would be no official affiliation with FG or other parties. Therefore, there would be minimal damage to the reputation of competing parties.

Sparks

Which would prompt the course of selecting candidates according to their record as opposed to according to their party affiliation.
I'll nominate all those that voted for using shannon as a starter...

Elmo

Which would prompt the course of selecting candidates according to their record as opposed to according to their party affiliation.

Unless they are part of the Fianna Fail Party. Hmmmmmm

Sparks

Not following you there elmo...

dahamsta

Originally posted by gollem_1975
I think that your resources would be put to better use if you were to run in the election yourself as an independent or for an alternative party. my 2c

I'll need more than 2c gollem. Seriously, I've thought about it and even met with a party to discuss standing for them, but decided the party wasn't suitable. It's pretty much too late to stand for another party now, so the only option is, as you suggest, standing as an Independent. It costs a lot of money and time though, both of which I'm a little short of.

Originally posted by Elmo
Are the opposition not supposed to do this?

Covered here.

Originally posted by Elmo
Anyway if FF don't get elected we will have FG and then will just have to do the same thing again in 5 years time just with the same party under a different Angalised name.

See the last paragraph in the thread starter.

adam

gollem_1975

re the money and time it would cost to run as an independent I don't think it would take any more or less resources than an effective campaign to hinder an FF campaign.
if you really wanted to hinder a FF campaign the best way would be to do it from within a FF campaign! ... once you don't begin to suffer from Stockholm syndrome
another thing that campaigners don't like are dogs .. so if you can get them on your side your away in a hack.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dahamsta
Seriously, I've thought about it and even met with a party to discuss standing for them, but decided the party wasn't suitable.

LOL. Which party? (If you don't mind me asking.)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by gollem_1975
instead of following the FF guys around and implementing your suggestions vis-a-vis jamming/harassing his/her campaign .. I think that your resources would be put to better use if you were to run in the election yourself as an independent or for an alternative party.

I'm not sure whether simply standing for the idea of getting FF out of power would be enough. There would have to be specific positive aims in order to give people a credible choice.

gollem_1975

I agree with you there Skeptic .
I was just making the point that a campaign of trying to hamper a Fianna fail campaign would require similar resources to running a rival campaign.
as for the money it would cost to run a campaign ... just think that if you get in as an independent you'd be guaranteed a salary of 70k ( I think so anyway ) a year for 5 years if FF and the PD's get back in again.

dahamsta

Originally posted by gollem_1975
I don't think it would take any more or less resources than an effective campaign to hinder an FF campaign.

Personally, I think it would be easier to create grassroots support for a general "Diss Eff-Eff" campaign than a personalised "Support Gubnet O'Lughnasa" campaign, but of course I don't know. Why I posted really.

Originally posted by gollem_1975
if you really wanted to hinder a FF campaign the best way would be to do it from within a FF campaign!

I have some standards you know. Seriously, I see your point, but once you're caught, you're out. Doing it from outside means you can spread the load, and there's very little they can do to stop you.

Originally posted by SkepticOne
LOL. Which party? (If you don't mind me asking.)

I don't mind but can't you guess? I had a chat with Denis Kirby and Deirdre Clune about it, but although I like and respect a lot of people in the party, their policies and organisation are a little slapdash in my opinion. Which isn't the same as saying I don't think they could do better in power, particularly if they had a party to balance the scales (Labour IMO). Perhaps my standards are too high. (Perhaps!?)

adam

Sparks

Doing it from outside means you can spread the load, and there's very little they can do to stop you.

Ah - I knew this idea reminded me of something...
It's a social version of a DDoS attack, isn't it?

The Beer Baron

Fianna Fáil?
Fianna Gael...
same thing.

I think I really feel the need to draw a picture of what I see as the different types of Irish voter:

I dunno but most young people don't bother voting because what's the point? They're all corrupt bastards right?
Slimy politicians- paah! Besides it's raining. Nice Treaty? Again- pfff- Neighbours is on...etc.

The ones that vote, there are a number of different sorts:

1. They vote the way their parents do.

2. Vote the opposite of what their parents do because they have yet to shed their teenage angsty "I hate my parents" outlook.

3. Have IRA tattoos and vote Sinn Féin despite knowing nothing about them except that the IRA blow up the Brits and are cool (despite having a Man U tattoo on the other arm) and nothing about politics or Irish history in general aside from being able to sing along to their dads' Wolfe Tone tapes.

4. The silly suburbanite "anarchists" who spoil their votes on purpose- way to go boys, guess what- Bertie's back!

5. Vote for the name they know. Fianna Fáil? Yeah I heard of them. That's how they got in again- WE gave you the Celtic Tiger (roar! roar! meoww! whimper...) vote for us again!

6. Ones who vote for Greens or Independants because they expect they will make a profound difference.

Adults- I'm afriad are pretty much the same. Except for 4 because no matter how old they might be anarchists never refer to themselves as adults even if their dreads are going thin on top. And for 6 because they are waaaay too cynical- and well, can you blame them?

Older voters tend to stick to the same party for the rest of their lives. And nothing, no matter how much you try is going to change that, because that's how people are.

Let's not forget, of course, that Fianna Fáil's success is not based on national campaigning (which is good none the less) or strong statesmen or competant ministers <belly laugh> but because they campaign on a regional level.

I laugh @ a story of my grandmother when the local FF TD came in around the back and asked "Is der antin' I can do fur ye missuz?"
"Well grab some of the washin' there and help me hang it up."
Funny? Yes. She was a no BS type of women (Labour and Larkin 4 ever! was her leanings) and I found her unique brand of political protest quite entertaining. None the less said TD rolled up his sleeves and hung up her washing. (Not that she'd ever vote for him)

They kiss the most babies, and the most arse and in the end they get in because they hang up washing for the missuzes, help with this, turn a blind eye to that. Irish politics, 1st and foremost always deal with The Land. And the people that populate it. Ireland isn't a nation, it's a collection of counties, of parish's, streets and fields. Always was always will be. FF know this. This is the key their sucess. And any attempts to destabilise them would have to centre around those self same parishs, fields and washing lines.

FG's last campaign overshot the mark intellectually. Noonan, an astute, articulate and intelligent man IMHO still came across as the Big Bald Meanie, arrogant, sarcastic and bitter.
Despite trouncing Bertie in a debate on RTE he none the less appeared to be "pickin'" on poor pitiful tongue-tied ole Bertie, "an' shur, he's doin' de best he can."

I have no doubt in my mind, anyways, that Ireland has had enough of the Bertie Dustbowl, or more to the point McCreevynomics. I think, even at the dumbest voting level, people are beginning to see a pattern that another FF victory would result in Irish inflation levels looking like those of the Weimar Republic. Then I could be proven wrong if Bertie kisses more babies, passes out more brown envelopes and hangs out the nation's washing, sparkling clean and euro fresh.

Getting back on topic?
I've long since given up on the notion of political activism because the majority of political activists I've met are either haughty smarmy young baby kissers themselves on one side of the scale, or smelly ****s with one Dead Kennedies t-shirt and a Ché Guevara poster to their name who steal your cigarettes and drink your last can of beer and call you a fascist when you loose your temper. Their idea of changing the system is gibbering through the windows of a 24 hour shop @ 4AM for 2 packs of Rizla and nine packs of monster munch. Not very organised.

Me? I'm still a firm believer in satire as a tool of disruption.
Me I like to write, but artwork, distributing pamphlets, disinformation, newsletters, web sites, lampoon your local TD and hang up "photoshopped" posters on lamp posts in the dead of night. Stuff like that really gets a laugh. Stick it to the man that way why dont ye!?

(Of course it might have the opposite effect- if done wrong you're giving the party publicity so make sure you make it nice and nasty.)

dahamsta

Beer Baron, read my first post. Mods, could you please split that (and this) post off, it's 95% off-topic rant?

adam

dahamsta

Originally posted by Sparks
Ah - I knew this idea reminded me of something...
It's a social version of a DDoS attack, isn't it?

Well, yeah. See Adbusters and NoLogo if you haven't seen them before. If you want to understand jamming, read the book (NoLogo). It talks about culture jamming, but the principle is the same.

adam