Why should Sky have an EPG monopoly on Astra

Mike 1972

Is there any reason why someone other than $ky (the BBC for example) couldnt start their own EPG on the Astra Satellite

For example the BBC could start their own free "ALL channel" EPG service which gave listings for all channels in whatever order they liked and the digibox owner could choose whether to use Sky or the BBC's one by default in the same way I can walk into a newsagent and buy the "Radio Times" "RTE Guide" or "TV times"

AFIK Sky would be unable to refuse to supply programme listings for the BBC's EPG because of the European ruling on TV listings presumably sets a legal precedent.

The way that Sky have been allowed to abuse their de-facto monopoly position re: EPG's and Encryption to date is a disgrace and its high time there was some intervention from the UK Government and/or the European Union

Does anyone know who runs/controls the freeview EPG ?

Lennoxschips

Sky subsidise the digibox and produce it themselves (via contractors) so they have a right to put whatever EPG they want on it.

There's nothing stopping the BBC from producing their own line of freeview satellite receivers with a different EPG.

sceptre

There's nothing at all stopping the BBC from doing that - Sky don't have an EPG monopoly on Astra, they have an EPG monopoly (or total control) on Sky digiboxes.

watty

Though most other EPGs only do one day rather than the 1 week approx of Sky.

A "good" non-Digibox can use some of the German whole day / several channel EPGs, as can good PC Satellite Card software,

The Digibox EPG also has fixed station numbering and auto retuning of the transponder / PID etc. This is all manual on non-Digibox receivers.

And non-Digiboxes can't use the proprietary Sky EPG info.

BBC (and the other channels on "Sky") do transmit the basic Now/Next EPG which is all most non-Digiboxes can display. That is non-Digibox compatible (Station name, name of program and details (i button) and times of current and next. That does not depend on Sky either.

Basically it is simply £stg 20,000 to £stg 75,000 simply to have a 3 digit number on the Sky menu. Other Satellite receivers don't even use that info as the user decides the favorite number.

The Broadcaster has to prepare and deliver the actual Program Guide info, that is separate and you don't have to put anything sensible in it (Radio and news channels don't).

Multiply number of channels by 20,000 Quid (some pay more RTE gets it free) and see how much Sky makes for simply allowing a Channel to be on the menu! Don't forget all the Actual EPG data and program info for up to a day is often done anyway. All the EPG info used for now and next uses the broadcasters bandwidth. All the 7 day guide info is provided and transmitted to Sky by the proadcaster.

Sky only provide the small extra (judging by slowness) bandwidth of the full "Program Guide" It requires no labour at all.

Nice money for doing nothing! Only Sky can set the menus and channel numbers on YOUR box (you own it).

Mike 1972

"Sky subsidise the digibox and produce it themselves (via contractors) so they have a right to put whatever EPG they want on it"

Interesting point although its not true in every case. People who want a digibox (for FTV channels for example) who arent interested in a $py subscription and/or cant/dont want to connect the digibox to a phoneline usually have to pay the full (unsubsidised) cost of the digibox.

How does the digibox "know" whch transponder to find the EPG on anyway. Is it programmed into the box or is the info on the smartcards ? If someone did start an "Independent" EPG would digibox users be able to reprogramme their boxes to take advantage of it ?

chernobyl

Originally posted by Mike 1972

Interesting point although its not true in every case. People who want a digibox (for FTV channels for example) who arent interested in a $py subscription and/or cant/dont want to connect the digibox to a phoneline usually have to pay the full (unsubsidised) cost of the digibox.

Your are purchasing a Sky Digital Set Top Box. If you simply want an STB that you use to view FTA channels then why the fuk would you buy a sky box?

Sky build and programme the box, you have the freedom to buy it or any other FTA reciever you wish and there is no lack of options.

EPG is not the issue here at all.

Originally posted by Mike 1972
How does the digibox "know" whch transponder to find the EPG on anyway. Is it programmed into the box or is the info on the smartcards ?

The "EPG" is part of the system software already installed on the box when you get it. Smart Cards [or lack of them] will determine which EPG chocies you get.

Originally posted by Mike 1972
If someone did start an "Independent" EPG would digibox users be able to reprogramme their boxes to take advantage of it ?

No, its pointless dicussing it really.
The software on a digibox can only be upgraded or replaced via "over the sky" downloads via satellite. I assume Sky has some security features so that a digibox will ignore any other updates that are not digitally signed "sky"....and even if you managed it and were using your independent "epg" for BBC viewing Sky could easily crush it with an update again.

just buy a proper FTA box

Mike 1972

"Your are purchasing a Sky Digital Set Top Box. If you simply want an STB that you use to view FTA channels then why the fuk would you buy a sky box?"

To watch FTV (as opposed to FTA) channels like Channels 4 5 and ITV perhaps ?
Mind you with the uncertainty over the FTV card's and whether the remaining FTV channels will remain FTV or go FTA (yes I know they hae a contract with $ky but I can see the ITC forcing them to wiggle out of it) anyone thinking of going down the FTV route would be advised to hold off.

Actually Sky's restrictive practices such as their refusal to sell Videoguard CAM's to fit standard slots on any reciever and the restrictions on FTA functionality on digiboxes is bound to attract the attentions of the ITC or the EU sooner or later

West Briton

Actually, the ITC have proved themselves to have balls of milk on the FTV issue. Don't expect them to do anything positive on the Videoguard issue.

It's down to the British Government to fight a rearguard action on that issue, if they are bothered.

chernobyl

Originally posted by Mike 1972
Actually Sky's restrictive practices such as their refusal to sell Videoguard CAM's to fit standard slots on any reciever and the restrictions on FTA functionality on digiboxes is bound to attract the attentions of the ITC or the EU sooner or later

Right..you seem to lack an understanding of how these things work.
Sky Digital will not work on any STB even if you provide a CAM. The system is a harmony between CAM and digibox software and inorder to provide software that would allow sky to run on any STB you would need to make that software open source...well atleast the the manufactures of a STB...and the issue is far more complex than that too.

Sky are within their rights to restrict the software on their box as they choose as long as the box functions perfectly under their system. If you want a full featured FTA box, then buy a genuine one...

watty

Yess Chernobyl is right. It pointless to worry about EPG issue.

1) Encryption. A CAM for videoguard would let a Sky card work on a non-Digibox. It would not turn a non-Digibox into a Digibox. Simply alow the encrypted program to be watched with a real Sky card.

But you would have no Sky Channel numbering or 1 week program guide or automatic station retuing. These are all proprietary Sky "EPG" Features.

Also you would have no Sky/Text / BBCi etc as this also is a Sky Proprietary extension or implementation of "Open TV" paltform software.

If there was a Sky CAM on a non Digibox
The Epg would be limited to Now and Next.
You would set your own channel number
You would haveto manually tune the channel everytime it chaged (Quite often oin some stations) and on some receivers this makes doing a VHS timed recording look simple.

The PLUS side of the Sky monoploy (Which I'm against) is that it makes watching Satellite TV easy for a Granny or a Tecnophobe. Many non-Sky digital Receivers (and esp some PC SW for Satelite cards) need quite a bit of tech savy.

Considering most of those how have non-Digibox in UK are either after porn or Satellite enthousists I can't beleive al the News Group and Forum postings on Non-Digiboxes (about how to tune etc) are from clueless porn watchers.

All non-digiboxes need new transponders added manually (AFIK). The RTE guide amazingly does publish two transponder frequencies but not the SR etc.

On my PC I can open a text file but on some set-top boxes editing a transponder list is a trifle arcane. So the Digibox is not all bad..

Seriously recommended if all you want is BBC and Sky FTA.

If you want any thing NOT on 28.2E than buy something else, not a Digibox. Really you need both (Think of it like AM and FM or VHS and DVD...)