The EU and Islam

Duffman

I'm researching the following topic for a youth parliament session:

"After 1945 Europe brought France and Germany together: is the EU's next mission to bring the Islamic and Western worlds together?"


Just thought this might be an interesting place to look for ideas.. Any thoughts?

bizmark

relgion is evil and should be wiped out thats my view ... if it wasnt for religon their would be far fewer war,s or as much tension between the "west" and "middle east"

The eu should but its mind toword,s our only problums right now and bringing together the new counrys ....... also before long from the look of it the usa will have attacked all middle east countrys and make the already tense relations with the "west" far far worse

Trebor

Originally posted by bizmark
relgion is evil and should be wiped out thats my view ... if it wasnt for religon their would be far fewer war,s or as much tension between the "west" and "middle east"

here, here

religion is the cause of all our suffering!

If the EU wants to invite an islamic nation into it's fold then they should as long as said country abides by all of the rules that we must and that there are no special circumstances that it can wave some policy's for the sake of religion, again unless the same right is given to every nation.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Trebor
here, here

religion is the cause of all our suffering!

If the EU wants to invite an islamic nation into it's fold then they should as long as said country abides by all of the rules that we must and that there are no special circumstances that it can wave some policy's for the sake of religion, again unless the same right is given to every nation.

Do these rights and values apply once your in the EU?
ref: Ireland -corrupttion and Italy - Insanity

bonkey

OK lads - lets not get too carried away off topic here.

Duffman, one point worth considering is the inherent change of scope in the two "re-unifications". France/Germany was an internal rift. The Islamic / Western worlds is an external rift.

To even suggest such a goal first requires an acceptance of the implicit change of focus - that we should no longer be looking to improve just our own society, but the time has come where we should be attempting to do the same for everyone.

jc

Sparks

How do you incorporate an Islamic state, where church and state are the same thing, into the EU, where there's a general policy of seperation of church and state?

Jimi-Spandex

This is a very difficult issue.

Problems I can see include,

-European Convention on Human Rights conflicting with a Theocratic legislature (Talking primarily about women's place in society)

-Free movement of goods. Think about things such as alcohol which would be outlawed in a outright Islamic state.

-The EU is uber democratic. Most Islamic countries are Theocracies ruled by a single man or monarchy. Quite incompatible.

There are plenty more problems which I could see arising which I don't have time do deal with. Before the EU should deal with this you should look at some of the problems with the accession of Turkey. There you have a secular government yet Islamic dominated society, still alot of problems due to frankly atrocious Human Rights record.

I don't think the EU has all that much to do with religion, just trade, politics, human rights and freedoms. Where a problem will arise is where the interests of religion and human rights are competing.

That said, if there is a separation of Church and State, there is no reason why, everything else given that the EU shouldn't accept membership applications from the Islamic world.

I wouldn't describe it as the EU's mission to unite the Islamic and western world's, I do think it is the EU's mission to project itself as an atypical Western Union, one who reacts with a pen and not a trigger, one who gives a helping hand, not a knife in the back. It is already doing a good job of this and definitely think our way forward is east and south.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Sparks
How do you incorporate an Islamic state, where church and state are the same thing, into the EU, where there's a general policy of seperation of church and state?

You obviously missed the Danish Luthran Church then have you?

To say that there is any real seperation of church and state in europe is a joke. While most of northern-western europe is non-catholic and follows reformist church doctorans you can understand why there is little clash between church and state like mainly catholic dominated countries(Italy pre-Musilini, Ireland, Spain, Poland)...

PLease pay heed to the fact that the Irish government relies on the church to supply charity and health care. Not to mention investment in education...

Duffman, one point worth considering is the inherent change of scope in the two "re-unifications". France/Germany was an internal rift. The Islamic / Western worlds is an external rift.

How is this? Surely the Balkans has thought you something. Alot of Europe was dominated by the Ottoman Empire for a good few centuries if u noticed. Perhaps America can claim to be external but since Istanbul fell to the Ottoman empire cirrca 1590+(correct me on the exact date, But it was atleast 100 years after the new world was found) Europe has had much influence from the Islamic world. Also note the Moorish invasion of southern spain. French Culture and Muslim influence from Algeria.

To say that France/Germany was an internal rift now seems plausable but at the time it was very much a polarised world. Germany and France were enemies for over 500 years. Right now there may seem to be a conflict that appears to be external to you and many others between the west and the world of Islam... Least we forget that Europe isn't the west. Its the Near-West and our muslim neightbours or the near-east as it be(mostly being moserate Muslim Secular states and not Islamic Theocracys).

Think alittle out of the box and you will realise that there is little reason for such polarisation of ideals when much the ethics of Moderate Secular Islam and that of Social Democratic Dominated europe have in common. i.e. The common good of society :rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
How is this?

Because the way the topic is phrased. It is not necessarily referring to inclusion of Islamic states into the EU, but rather to bring the two worlds together. When taken in relation to the French/German rift, I would immediately imagine it is talking about finding a way to reconcile the two ways of life across the globe.

No matter how you wish to look at your history, France and Germany were always a part of Europe. The ISlamic world may have had influence in Europe in teh past, and indeed, it may be possible for Europe to co-exist peacefully with Islam by - as you put it - thinking outside the box, but that is still not how I would read the topic.

Reconciling two ways of life aroudn the globe is not internal to Europe. Reconciling two nations in Europe is.

jc

Biffa Bacon

It is impossible to bring the Western and Islamic worlds together, they are utterly incompatible. The EU's role should be to stand alongside America in the crusade against Islamofascism.

For more information click on the link below.

Sparks

I'd rather see us stand with the UN in the fight against rampant militantism and the "yee-haw" school of foreign policy, myself...

Éomer of Rohan

I always smile when I see BB's name attached to a thread because I have yet to read something of his that hasn't given me a good laugh (after the initial shock and raised blood pressure subsides;) ).

For once though I agree - Western and Islamic worlds are incompatible. Western ideals are based on the exploitation of those who can't strike back and a religion is not a sensible basis for any society - that includes the christian morals which attend ours.

bizmark

it,s more likely their will be a war that a united eu/middle east ............. though the peaceful way has gotten turkey to want to join and the eu has managed so far to make them change their ways and some law,s

though i still see a war rather than a peace between us (stupid religon)

Capt'n Midnight

This could only happen after
- the various "christian" religons have been reconciled eg: Drumcree...
- the sunni's and shia muslims have been reconciled
- the athiests gets reconciled with believers

The main problem are fundamentalists especially the ones trying to convert or impose thier beliefs on others - look at the North / USA / Othordox Jews / Fanatical Muslims / Rabid campaigners against religon etc...

The EU has a major rule to play with regard to the north Africian countries - but it is a very long term one - generations - and will be economic and political rather than religous. (sphere of influence but not in the USA sense)

BTW: Turkey is not an islamic state.

Anyway when the oil runs out...

Cabaal

Originally posted by Sparks
I'd rather see us stand with the UN in the fight against rampant militantism and the "yee-haw" school of foreign policy, myself...

I totally agree, its more of a danger to the world..

Duffman

Thanks for all the replies

My interpretation of the topic would be similar to bonkey's.

Although Turkey's membership of the EU would be a hugely significant gesture towards the Islamic world and an important part of any resolution we produce, the question is not about the enlargement of the union to include Islamic states. It is asking what role the EU could play in order to improve international relations between the "west" and islamic nations across the globe.

This is more important then ever when faced with the rise of Islamic extremism and the threat of international terrorism. In this climate we can't require these countries to adopt our values and beliefs (even if we believe them to right) before we're willing to co-operate with them to improve relations...

A random question:

The Vatican has observer status in the UN, OECD and WTO... Is it represented in a similar way in any of the EU institutions?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Jimi-Spandex
I wouldn't describe it as the EU's mission to unite the Islamic and western world's, I do think it is the EU's mission to project itself as an atypical Western Union, one who reacts with a pen and not a trigger, one who gives a helping hand, not a knife in the back. It is already doing a good job of this and definitely think our way forward is east and south.

I agree that it's not the EU's mission to unite the Islamic and western worlds. Turkey may become part of the EU and this may possibly have some benefits in terms of the EU's relations with the Islamic world, but this would be a side effect rather than the main aim, which would be to create a larger free trade zone and increase the overall clout of the EU on the world stage. I don't think the EU sees it as its role to unite different groups of people around the world. I don't think it is that idealistic. The immediate interests of its members are what it is concerned about.

I disagree slightly on the pen and sword issue. Right now, each member country decides how to utilise its own military so consequently the only thing that the EU has in terms of foreign policy is the pen. As political union proceeds and a common foreign policy develops, a common military power will develop hand to hand with it. Both are dependent on each other. This will change the nature of the EU. Some people might argue that this would be a good thing to counteract the US. I think this is true, however I also think a strong common foreign policy and military would make the EU more like the US.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
- the sunni's and shia muslims have been reconciled

You're thinking of Iraq, and the reasons they need reconciling there is more a social/political reason rather than a religious reason. In general, the two groups don't need to be reconciled, there's more sects in Islam than those two anyway.

mcgarnicle

You're thinking of Iraq, and the reasons they need reconciling there is more a social/political reason rather than a religious reason. In general, the two groups don't need to be reconciled, there's more sects in Islam than those two anyway.

Do you live on the moon? What about the bombing of a Shi'ite mosque by sunni in Pakistan recently?
The EU isnt interested in bringing the west and islamic countries together, the only reason that turkey is being considered is because of pressure from the US (and Britain of course) France and Germany are dragging their feet on it and lets face it they are the EU

bizmark

pressure from the US (and Britain of course)

i heard that the eu told america to basicly **** off and keep thier nose out of EU busness reguarding turkey:D

France and Germany are dragging their feet on it and lets face it they are the EU

more than happy to have them as the head of the eu than a 51st state britan with its head up its arse............. or god forbid america

at lest with france and german we have leader countrys with ball,s

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and now back to your topic

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Frank Grimes

Originally posted by mcgarnicle
Do you live on the moon? What about the bombing of a Shi'ite mosque by sunni in Pakistan recently?

I live in Dublin, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything.
There isn't a fundamental difference between the two groups in Islam in general. It's like saying all Catholics and Protestants hate each other everywhere and using what went/goes on up North as a basis.