Berlusconi's 'Nazi' jibe

Nemesis

Silvio Berlusconi lost his temper and more or less called a German MEP a commandant of a Nazi concentration camp.
He appeared to be smiling as he said this..and said it was meant to be a joke.
It may be in bad taste..even very bad taste...but do people in Europe and especially in Germany over-react to any mention of Nazi's?.
Ancient Rome and other powers in the past were/might have been as cruel and inhumane as the Nazi's but we are free to discuss and talk about them..and call them ancient civilizations.
If berlusconi was likened to Mussolini would Italians be upset?.
Or if he was compared to Nero...Caesar?.
Maybe we still need to protected from some aspects of History?.
DB.

Sparks

There's a bit of a difference between the holocaust and ancient rome - namely that no-one who actually suffered human rights abuses in ancient rome is still alive today. Nor are their kids, or grandkids...

simu

No, it's not an overreaction. Berlusconi's comment was silly and inappropriate from somebody who holds so much influence. It's strange that he refuses to apologise. In the Irish Times, it was reported that even Fini, leader of the Italian "post-fascist" party thought it was inappropriate.

Plus, too many people still immediately associate Germany with the Nazis and are unaware of the rest of German history and of German cultural achievements in general. Germany is a central country in the EU and we should make an effort to see past the stereotypes.

DadaKopf

He should apoligise to all of Germany and resign while he's at it.

Nemesis

I actually agree with you guys...
Hence my last sentence..
So time will make us see history in a different light then?.
I just threw out my post to see reactions and hear opinion.
Berlusconi is as corrupt as our dear Liam Lawlor...
Maybe Pat Fox should compare Berlusconni to Our Mr Lawlor.;).
DB.

bonkey

Originally posted by Nemesis
Berlusconi is as corrupt as our dear Liam Lawlor...

Absolutely. And while the systems our respective nations have in place allow them to run for candidacy, and while the people in our respective nations choose to elect them, all we can do is accept it or seek change in the system.

Attacking the individual is not the solution. As Berlusconi just admirably demonstrated, all it leads to is attacks in retaliation.

Consider this....people are so outraged with the comment by Berlusconi that they seem to have more or less ignored the reasons why he issued this insult.

If ever I saw a case of successful misdirection by someone, this is it. I fully expect him to "cave in to pressure" in the next few days and issue a simpering, politically-sincere apology.....and everyone will once more forget exactly what that German said which is what prompted the response.

jc

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sparks
There's a bit of a difference between the holocaust and ancient rome - namely that no-one who actually suffered human rights abuses in ancient rome is still alive today. Nor are their kids, or grandkids...

That has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve heard in a while. Would this mean that had the Nazis been more thorough, this would not be an issue, or that in another century (or less) we can forget all about it?

Originally posted by simu
No, it's not an overreaction. Berlusconi's comment was silly and inappropriate from somebody who holds so much influence. It's strange that he refuses to apologise. In the Irish Times, it was reported that even Fini, leader of the Italian "post-fascist" party thought it was inappropriate.

Ironically Gianfranco Fini and his National Alliance party, while certainly right-wing, are probably more moderate than some of the other members of Berlusconi’s coalition.

Berlusconi was certainly provoked and some of the indignation that has followed is certainly a product of his opponents attempting to leverage some political gain at his expense. However, it was one of the most idiotic things I’ve seen ejaculate from a politician’s mouth.

If Berlusconi to be condemned, I would do so not for the comment per say, but the political incompetence of it.

Plus, too many people still immediately associate Germany with the Nazis and are unaware of the rest of German history and of German cultural achievements in general. Germany is a central country in the EU and we should make an effort to see past the stereotypes.

This is probably one of the principle reasons for the German outcry. The comment promoted an offensive stereotype that the Germans no doubt are sick of.

No, the Second World War was a long time ago. Long before most of us were born. I’m not surprised that the Germans are sick of hearing about it.

Sand

/me shrugs

Your man made a joke, one that went down a like a lead balloon. Big deal - get over it. Where was the indignation and outrage when people were daily decrying Bush as being like Hitler - actually didnt one German poltician do exactly that?

Dunno if youd call it hypocrisy - just selective outrage:|

Sparks

TC,

That has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve heard in a while. Would this mean that had the Nazis been more thorough, this would not be an issue, or that in another century (or less) we can forget all about it?

No, it means that the history involving the concentration camps is still an open wound for many people who lived through the camps, and their immediate families. Hence, bringing it up like that is more likely to provoke a reaction than telling an Italian that he'd make a great Nero for a TV movie...
And it most certainly is not the most ridiculous argument you've heard in a while, it's quite reasonable.

No, the Second World War was a long time ago. Long before most of us were born.

Actually, the demographics show that that's incorrect - at least half the Irish population was alive during the war.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sparks
No, it means that the history involving the concentration camps is still an open wound for many people who lived through the camps, and their immediate families.

And the mere mention of it offended this increasingly rarefied demographic? I expect Martin Schulz began life in a concentration camp? Was that it? And the uproar in Germany; I suppose they were all in concentration camps too?

No, as I’ve already argued the comment promoted an offensive stereotype that the Germans no doubt are sick of. The Germans, not specifically the people who lived through the camps, and their immediate families. I hardly blame them.

Actually, the demographics show that that's incorrect - at least half the Irish population was alive during the war.

What demographics are these? According to the 2002 census that would be about 20% of the Irish population.

Sparks

And the mere mention of it offended this increasingly rarefied demographic?

Not just that rarified demographic, but that demographic and their immediate families - and then there's the demographic of those that stood by while it was going on, and their immediate family.

No, as I’ve already argued the comment promoted an offensive stereotype that the Germans no doubt are sick of. The Germans, not specifically the people who lived through the camps, and their immediate families. I hardly blame them.

A valid point, but I don't think that our answers are mutually exclusive.

What demographics are these? According to the 2002 census that would be about 20% of the Irish population.

Erk. 17%. My bad. Showing my age now :rolleyes:

adjodlo

TBH the main reason this offends the German/European poplulation, is not due to the fact that there are many holocaust survivors, but rather due to the fact that there are many former NAZI supporters who are still alive, and this thought remains fresh in the eyes of many germans, who were all too quick to forget their NAZI links after the war

The Corinthian

Originally posted by adjodlo
TBH the main reason this offends the German/European poplulation, is not due to the fact that there are many holocaust survivors, but rather due to the fact that there are many former NAZI supporters who are still alive, and this thought remains fresh in the eyes of many germans, who were all too quick to forget their NAZI links after the war

Interesting theory. Care to back it up with evidence as to why this is the main reason?

Or was this just an opinon stated as fact?

No wonder the Germans are pissed off if this is the opinon that people have of them...

Wook

all i know is that i know a good few germans, and theyre all sick to the idea that , theyre always associated with german war movies or nazi concentration camps. Always been asked the same questions, like 'how do you feel about it?' The war guilt is strong in the new generation which actually had nothing to do with it. I sometimes have to remind the people around me , that the war is over.

Ping Chow Chi

The only goverment person I remember comparing bush to hitler was Herta Daeubler-Gmelin which caused a huge amount of outrage at the time and she had many many calls for her to resign over that (though Im not sure she did in the end)

link

still, its a stupid stupid remark for a head of state to make, and completly suprising from such a big business man.

Kambika

"Who were all too quick to forget thei NAZI links after the war..."

I dont think that anyone in Germany has forgotten about it and we get reminded of what happened just a bit too often, and when a politician is making a "joke" about it is just one of that times. Well I would love to not get regularly reminded of what my grand grand parents did, or not did, especially as I havent even ever met them.. And I wish I would have learned something else in school history lessons than almost only about the 2nd world war.

bonkey

Originally posted by Ping Chow Chi
still, its a stupid stupid remark for a head of state to make, and completly suprising from such a big business man.

Oh, I dunno.

Look at it this way...everyone is on about how terrible his "slip of the tongue" was, and are completely ignoring the reasons why he made it - which was effectively that people were challenging his suitability as president for more valid reasons then his poor taste in insults.

He's already made peace with Schroeder, will no doubt simper up to the European Parliament giving them the "apology to the house" they have requested, and everything will be forgotten about.

Conversely, had he not insulted the German using the language he did, we would probably be sitting here discussing the points raised by the floor about Berlusconi, and coming to the conclusion that he really isnt the type of person we want leading the EU.

Similarly, his outburst and the ensuing controversy will make it less likely that these issues will be brought up again, because once he makes his apologies, anyone bringing the subject back up will be told "we've been through this before", and will appear to be just acting out of a dislike to the guy - adding strength to his own assertions that there is effectively a pan-European Left-Wing conspiracy against people like him.

Personally, I think the guy has pulled off a masterstroke. Unfortunately.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bonkey
adding strength to his own assertions that there is effectively a pan-European Left-Wing conspiracy against people like him.

Agreed. Unfortunately, the irrational and vocal fashion in which he is accused of pretty much everything at this stage has done nothing other than to add credence that his accusers are die-hard lefties gunning for him.

I’ve been disagreeing more and more with the line taken by the Economist in recent months, but they have, to their credit, been one of the few outspoken critics of Berlusconi that have remained relatively calm and calculated in their accusations against the Presidente del Consiglio, imho.

Cork

Originally posted by Wook
all i know is that i know a good few germans, and theyre all sick to the idea that , theyre always associated with german war movies or nazi concentration camps. Always been asked the same questions, like 'how do you feel about it?' The war guilt is strong in the new generation which actually had nothing to do with it. I sometimes have to remind the people around me , that the war is over.

Berlusconi made a few comments. He apologised for them. There is no way we should forget about the horrors of WW2.

We can all jump in the wagon of political correctness & critise Berlusconi. But the guy has aploogised.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Cork
Berlusconi made a few comments. He apologised for them. There is no way we should forget about the horrors of WW2.

We can all jump in the wagon of political correctness & critise Berlusconi. But the guy has aploogised.

Isn't "there is no way we should forget about the horrors of WW2" kind of jumping on the politically correct bandwagon? :rolleyes:

Sparks

Personally, I think the guy has pulled off a masterstroke.

Dunno 'bout you bonkey, but I'm more than capable of feeling that he's unfit to hold the post for more than one reason... so demonstrating another one publicly on his inaugeration wouldn't strike me as being all that bright. It takes what would have been reported as heckling and turns it into a major news story pointing out Berlusconi's dodgy history as well as his poor taste.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
Dunno 'bout you bonkey, but I'm more than capable of feeling that he's unfit to hold the post for more than one reason... so demonstrating another one publicly on his inaugeration wouldn't strike me as being all that bright.

Don't get me wrong - I think he is a terrible person to be holding most/all of the posts he holds. But thats immaterial - the EU places no limitations on which elected leaders can take their place in the round-robin. To complain about someone who is doing what the system says they must strikes me as misdirected at best, and not all that bright either. Here, it is the system which is at fault, not the individual.

Funnily enough, I'm guessing that the vast majority of Irish people who would have an issue with Berlie holding this post would be abhorrent at the idea of allowing the EU (or some formal body therein) have the power to refuse an Irish representative from taking the post on any grounds, and yet they believe that either Berlusconi should be prevented from taking his post, removed from it one way or another, or are clinging to some misguided idea that a corrupt politician would honourably step down once it became clear that he was corrupt, despite the lack of any legal convictions.

It takes what would have been reported as heckling and turns it into a major news story pointing out Berlusconi's dodgy history as well as his poor taste.

Only the media are focussing on his poor taste, and not on the reasons why this whole slagging match started, because to do so would also cast the poor insulted German MEP in a bad light and that would never do.

Like I said...I see this as media manipulation at its finest/worst. In one sense, I'd love to be shown wrong, and that more people would realise the whole backfround to this debacle. On the other hand, I still believe that no-one outside Italy has a right to use some form of mob-rule to dictate what democratic decisions within Italy are valid...and like I said....while people may be outraged at a foreigner being able to abuse the system, they will object to the system being reformed as it could potentially disadvantage one of their own in the future.

jc

jc