Is independent thought valued in Ireland?

simu

It's a fact that intelligence is distributed evenly among all human nationalities/ ethnic groups. However, it also seems to me that some societies encourage creativity and critical thought more than others and that this has an impact on life in these societies.

In every society, there are exceptional ppl who go against the grain and whose main drive in life is to ask questions, come up with new solutions to problems etc. However, it seems that the majority of ppl just go along with recieved opinions and don't bother worrying about "deep", philosophical issues.

Do ye think Irish ppl are given enough encouragement (by society in general, the educational system, their families etc) to think for themselves? To be more precise, do ye think this society frowns upon independent thought or is it a valued commodity?

It's quite an abstract question, I know, so maybe it would be easier to discuss this in comparaison with the past/other countries ppl have lived in. I'm still trying to figure this out for myself, so all opinions on the subject are welcome.:)

bonkey

Originally posted by simu
It's a fact that intelligence is distributed evenly among all human nationalities/ ethnic groups.

Is it?

Do ye think Irish ppl are given enough encouragement (by society in general, the educational system, their families etc) to think for themselves? To be more precise, do ye think this society frowns upon independent thought or is it a valued commodity?

Historically - there's an awful lot of famous Irish people for "thinky" stuff, as well as literature etc. Indeed, I would say that perhaps a disproportionately large amount of them.....so it would be hard to say that we have historically frowned on this.

In a more modern context....hard to say. I'd imagine that it is still a highly valued commodity, in certain situations. People who rock the boat are rarely welcomed with open arms in any society. Its people who turn their independant thought in certain directions who get the acceptance and praise.....which I would imagine is as it always has been.

I would add as a rider tht there seems to be an increasing trend in society where - up to a certain age-point - peer pressure makes being intelligent intensely uncool.

Imposter

Are you trying to get people to think or something! :rolleyes:

I would agree with your stateement that the majority just go with the flow.

As for people been given enough encouragement, I dunno. What is enough encouragement?

In terms of society in general people will generally focus on issues that affect them directly and so having an opinion on these issues, whether it be independent or not. I think government try to dampen this independent thinking thing as otherwise they'd be in a spot of bother, after all they're the ones supposed to be thinking for the country.

With regard to education I think this definitely fails to encourage people to think outside the box if you like. Especially in Secondary school where talks and debate should be encouraged more. In university the system fails too imo. I think the various clubs or societies fix the problem here though. The fact that you have a collection of (supposedly) the most intelligent people obviously means this is where such thinking will occur.

With families again it depends on the family. Some encourage it and some (parents usually) but a block up against anyone with a different opinion to them.

As for the value of independent thought that obviously depends on your position. If you're the argumentative type (none of those around here ) then you'll welcome others to bounce your ideas off. However if you're a politician i'm sure you'd rather not hear all these different positions/ideas.

I'd like to know where and how you think other cultures/societies/countries differ to Ireland in encouraging this?

IMO most countries have the same mix of apathy although some countries do put a little more emphasis on the arts which may encourage independent thinking a bit more. But overall I reckon most are similar with regards to percentages of people which bother with thinking.

I've probably asked more questions that i've answered here but sure at least I was thinking!

Trebor

I would have to say that as with most developed countries we have a general education system that teaches us what we are suppose to know (well thats what it's suppose to do) and that most people who have achieved a second level education believe that that is all the thinking and or learning that they have to do outside of work.

But as with most other countries there is always a minority that will spend their lives looking for something else to learn or to challange their minds.

so i wouldn't say that it is encourage properly in the school's as they seem more for pumping you full of information so that you can pass an exam as oppose to thinking for yourself.

the people who do have independent thought are valued by society but not by the "establishment" as independent thought is usally proposing idea's that make sense but which the government didn't come up with, which then starts the media going in a frenzy about why are they doing it this way when they should be doing it that way, type thing.

Victor

I think it is, in particular in industry and business in general. That said, no factory manager is going to tolerate Anto who gets "artistic" with product lableing.

In society and politics, the system / people tend to criticise people with ideas / standards / behaviors that are too far from normal / acceptable. Of course different thinking is needed and sometimes welcomed when intransigence, decay and stagnation are seen.

Originally posted by bonkey
Is it?

While perhaps not equal, it is balanced. There can be no standardised test that values each societies educational and academic values equally (perhaps a series of tests might find said balance). Pluck some young children from anywhere and transport them to a different society and language / social barriers aside, they should be similarly capable at the end of their education to their peers. That said children of immigrants tend to do better than their peers in part due to the "go-getter" attitude of their parents (that made them leave home in the first place) and as compensation for being "different".

DeVore

Victor Wrote:
I think it is, in particular in industry and business in general. That said, no factory manager is going to tolerate Anto who gets "artistic" with product lableing.

Pity they dont move him to the marketing/design department then isnt it.

Oh no, Irish management could never have the lateral thought to put the square peg in the *square* hole.

Do ye think Irish ppl are given enough encouragement (by society in general, the educational system, their families etc) to think for themselves?

No. I dont. Originality and difference is not celebrated here by and large.

To be more precise, do ye think this society frowns upon independent thought or is it a valued commodity?

In certain circumstances its valued but by and large anyone who doesnt conform to the norm is considered "feckin' weird".

DeV.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
While perhaps not equal, it is balanced.

Actually, I was more questioning the assertion that it was a fact, rather than an assumption or generally held belief.

In other words, while its something I would generally believe, I'm not sure its a fact.

Originally posted by deVore
Oh no, Irish management could never have the lateral thought to put the square peg in the *square* hole.

True, but had the same guy come to them as a marketing bod and he was suited perfectly to that tassk, then they'd welcome him with open arms.

I think the probem is not that we do not value independant thought, but rather that too few people are willing (or able?) to put the effort into seeing how to capitalise on someone else's independant thought. They lack the independant thinking themselves to see how to do it, if you will.

As illustration...the "lateral thinking" that deVore refers to above is - I would have thought an example of independant thinking being lacking in the managers (they genuinely dont see their opportunity) rather than their being unappreciative of someone else being capable of independant thought.

jc

simu

most people who have achieved a second level education believe that that is all the thinking and or learning that they have to do outside of work.

That's true, Trebor, and it applies to many ppl at third level as well. You need a certain level of knowledge to pass exams and get a good job but anything beyond that is left to "artists" and "boffins"(I hate that word).

Thinking of other countries, I've lived in France and I noticed that ppl there seem to have broader interests than in Ireland. Of course, this is only a reflection of people I have met personally in both countries - that's why I'm curious about the experiences of others who have lived abroad. This is a generalisation but, in Ireland, I've often found myself in a group of intelligent people and I've noticed that when the conversation starts veering towards anything a bit too "intellectual" or "deep", people start getting embarassed and they try to change topic. Irish people also seem to prefer to avoid conflict - in France, I noticed, people were more willing to have debates when they found someone who had a different opinion than their own.

Historically, you can see how such a situation would have developed - France has a long history of standing up to authorities (the monarchy, the Church etc) whereas, in Ireland we were subjugated both by the British and by the Catholic Church until recently and I think we prefer to joke about our misfortunes than analysing them and trying to resolve them.

France also has a strong philosophical tradition whereas the Irish, historically, expressed themselves mostly through poetry and song. Philosophy books regularly make it onto bestseller lists in France and educated people are expected to be up to date on philosophical debates(keeping in mind that this also includes debates on society, technology etc, not just abstract reasonings).

Aditionally, philosophy is an obligatory subject for the baccalauréat (French leaving Cert.) so most young people have some degree of familiarity with the subject. I think teaching philosophy at L.C. would be far more fruitful than the time spent on the wishy-washy "Jesus loves you and will forgive you so don't give too much thought to your life"-type Catholicism I was taught in religion classes at school.

Victor

Originally posted by DeVore
Oh no, Irish management could never have the lateral thought to put the square peg in the *square* hole.

Hey management can put square peg in square holes (see pic).

yankinlk

Originally posted by bonkey

Historically - there's an awful lot of famous Irish people for "thinky" stuff, as well as literature etc. Indeed, I would say that perhaps a disproportionately large amount of them.....so it would be hard to say that we have historically frowned on this.

...and what proportion of that lot had to leave this country to achieve anything?

I dont think that Ireland is any different than anywhere else in a sense that people who travel/move and live in other countries are more open-minded than the general population - except that Ireland and Irish people may have had a larger portion of its people move away for at least 10 years.

DadaKopf

I think everyone in Ireland values original thought in principle. However, I don't think Irish people are good at identifying it and valuing it in comparison to other European countries.

Various Irish scholars have noted that since Independence, there has been a decline in, let's say, progressive thought in both artistic, political and practical spheres. For example, the Gaelic League in the late 19th to early 20th centuries pre-empted aspects of progressive left-wing thought by at least twenty years, but after independence, such thought dried up. That time, too, was the 'golden age' of Irish world standard artistic culture but it's premature to say that such figures as Yeats of Joyce aren't walking the streets now.

It's been argued that, following Irish independence, the overwhelming difficulties faced by successive Irish governments and people's own everyday lives, demanded that Irish solutions to Irish problems were strongly pragmatic. Pragmatism is great for kickstarting a country, when there are scant resources, (and it's served us well in many respects) but it eventually tends to limit vision and, as scholars argue, the underlying rationale behind post-1985 Celtic Tiger economic organisation has enhanced this handicap, not releived it.

Take, for example, the Reclaim the Streets events around town and the debates that surround it. Those who support it see it as an exercise in thinking outside the box, as a way for us to begin thinking about how to use cities differently. Those who oppose it don't propose anything outside the given. They argue that it blocks streets, that it's full of smelly people - i.e. overstating the blatantly obvious - and dismiss it as dreaming or vapid idealism. This is a recent, everyday example of two divergent attitudes in Ireland and I'm afraid that the latter is winning.

Other cultural inheritances feed in to this, too. As simu mentioned, France has a history of debate and dissent and quite deeply felt pangs of civic responsibility. Our history has generated a different set of attitudes - colonialism fostered in us contempt for government (even though the government is our government and not an instrument of British rule) which we still carry forward and political and economic pragmatism has limited our space for debate and dissent because we view it as a fluffy luxury. I also don't believe that the extension of business and marketing models into everyday life is going to solve our problems either because this style of thinking, itself, is a purely instrumental style of thinking and that's the problem we have in the first place.

What we have to do is to learn to accept and foster dissent, as some academics have argued. It could begin in school, but even changing the curriculum would be an uphill struggle. We could, for example, adopt the Danish approach which is not to test children for their first nine years of school and, instead, to encourage them to think for themselves and collectively. This is the most important thing a child can ever learn. The benefits of this attitude is clear to see in Scandinavian countries where creative thinking is fused, or rather fuels, necessary (and original) practical solutions for all areas of life - a unified approach which Ireland must embrace.

aine

No I don't think that enough time is given over within our educational system to the development of students ability to coherently articulate an argument!

If you look at most education systems on the continent they include a Political course or a social studies course from a very young age which encourages students to think about issues, current afairs etc! We are only beginnig to introduce such a scheme!

Added to that the dreaded Leaving Certificatitis that most students leave Secondary school with....ie the inability to form independent opinions because for the previous six years they have just 'learned off' whatever it was their teachers told them they needed for an exam....if they did that much!

In my opinion our educational system consists of 14 uninspiring years of learning which results in 'booksmart' students who find it difficult to connect what it is that they know to actual situations! Leaving Cert history for example involves writing a bunch of essays and learning them off, students later find it difficult to adapt this knowledge for use outside of an exam!

The manner in which our national language is taught is another perfect example!

bug

A friend of mine from the middle east expressed his views to me about the Irish people. He asked me why they don't express their opinions about politics and current affairs generally, ( since they can) ? The thought came to me when I had a quick look around at my peers, that's because they don't think about it. I think that this up and coming generation is f****d personally. IMO the age of the great Irish thinkers is generally well over.
Its a situation of I'm alright Jack, I've got my car, credit, and my TV, my s****y americanisd pop crap, and big brother on channel four, hey there's no need for me to think.

as an aside If they keep building places like I****, we'll all be brainwashed!
My brother and I were talking about a particular company which we both had the displeasure of working for. The induction was three weeks long and their personality test is allegedly patented by who other than the church of Scientology. I went through this bizarre machine. Everyone was laughing at the plastic guy on the LCD display telling us in info-mercial stylee, that we were now one of them...hmm, we are the borg.....on the last day of 20 I was the only one laughing.
This scared me. One of the first employees of this particular company told me of the first time in the early 90's when they brought this style of training in, everyone fell around the boardroom laughing at Jeb in shorts,/( this doesn't happen anymore)/ The American's were distgusted and couldn't get it....and my point......we should IMO be able to ban input like the French do.


/oh yeah, I also got reprimanded on my break for whistling "bright eyes" at the rabbits outside the window on the night shift, why? I dunno maybe it wasn't PC for the rabbits:rolleyes:

Sparks

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and I'm not alone in saying it) - we need a mandatory course at Junior and Leaving Cert levels on philosophy, ethics, morality, civics and politics. A "this is our society and how it works and how you are expected to live in it, and why" course.

Turnip

I get the feeling that when people talk about 'independent thought', they're talking about indoctrinating students with left wing ideals, outdated and long since discredited ones at that.

One of the few real independent thinkers in Ireland now is Eoghan Harris. He has the guts to go against the grain and give our ridiculously politically correct society a much needed hammering.

simu

Turnip, indoctrinating people with left-wing thought is NOT independent thought. However, I agree that some would interpret independent thought in such a manner.

What I mean by independent though is encouraging people to question everything, to see behind the surface of things and to try and come up with better ways of doing things. This applies to everything - questioning political ideologies, received opinion, the "obvious", how the country/world is run. It could even apply to banal thing like "Why do I watch TV programme X", "Why do I like ths colour blue" etc.

If more ppl thought this way, there would be less taking things for granted, complaininig about things when it's too late and general gullibility.

JustHalf

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Take, for example, the Reclaim the Streets events around town and the debates that surround it. Those who support it see it as an exercise in thinking outside the box, as a way for us to begin thinking about how to use cities differently. Those who oppose it don't propose anything outside the given. They argue that it blocks streets, that it's full of smelly people - i.e. overstating the blatantly obvious - and dismiss it as dreaming or vapid idealism. This is a recent, everyday example of two divergent attitudes in Ireland and I'm afraid that the latter is winning.

I think it's a bit much to imply that people who disagree with Reclaim the Streets (which is, let's get this straight, a disorganised street party) are against independent thought.

Originally posted by DadaKopf
What we have to do is to learn to accept and foster dissent, as some academics have argued.

By dissent, do you mean questioning the activities of government or do you mean active opposition (which would have to be for the sake of it)?

I presume you mean the former, but I'd like to be sure.

Originally posted by Sparks
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and I'm not alone in saying it) - we need a mandatory course at Junior and Leaving Cert levels on philosophy, ethics, morality, civics and politics. A "this is our society and how it works and how you are expected to live in it, and why" course.

It's a joke this isn't already running.

Trebor

Originally posted by simu
Turnip, indoctrinating people with left-wing thought is NOT independent thought. However, I agree that some would interpret independent thought in such a manner.

What I mean by independent though is encouraging people to question everything, to see behind the surface of things and to try and come up with better ways of doing things. This applies to everything - questioning political ideologies, received opinion, the "obvious", how the country/world is run. It could even apply to banal thing like "Why do I watch TV programme X", "Why do I like ths colour blue" etc.

If more ppl thought this way, there would be less taking things for granted, complaininig about things when it's too late and general gullibility.

maybe it comes from the fact that even though we might express independent thought it is not listened to. when ever we express out opinions they are not listened to, and nothing is done about them. look at the state of the country right now. there are cut backs left right and center because the gorvernment haven't the ball's to raise taxes to help fund nessecary project's nor to borrow to invest in infrastructure.

all this comes from them just wanting to keep the hundled masses from going postal on them and to keep themslves in power. if they where to educate people in why things have to be done a certain way and then did it efficently then people would know that they where getting value for money. instead they just spoon feed us the we will keep income tax low while they then put indirect taxes on everything they can.

Kell

I am afraid that I have to agree with the people that have posted that reckon that no, Ireland in general doesn't give much encouragement to independant thinking.

I echo Bugs statement that the up and coming generation have nothing else on their minds barring the car, the DVD player credit etc mind you neither do a lot of my peers. I started working in a place just recently and I cant get over the amount of plastic people who work in the office who's day to day life consists of work, home, TV, bed and maybe a few jars at the weekend.

I was speaking to a friends mother recently who has taken on a serious amount of education well past the point where I thought someone would be open to it, and she revealed to me that serious open and lateral thinking is almost discouraged in academic circles in this country as it could prove people wrong and land lecturers out on the streets because their ideas are outdated.

As far as I can tell, most governments (Irish and others) would benefit from people not being open minded as they'll never be found out. Beyond government and education, I think Ireland has less tolerance than most other countries of lateral thinking due to our other national problem: APATHY. To coin a phrase my dad always uses in this respect- "sure what would you want to do or think that for?"

Thanks be to jeebus we have boards to turn to when the bloke next to you in the pub just wants to sit there all night and talk about TV.

K-

DadaKopf

To coin a phrase my dad always uses in this respect- "sure what would you want to do or think that for?"

JustHalf: It was this reaction that I was echoing through an example from personal experience. And I don't think it's 'a bit rich' - RTS a very well trodden debate on here which, I think, highlights the lack of 'imagination' in Irish society today.

By dissent, I meant dissent - as in activities that attempt to disrupt the status quo. Dissent can come in many forms.

People have already commented on how boring and plastic people are becoming these days - this is the product of the Celtic Tiger. Is this a coincidence? No. Irish attitudes and behaviours have significantly changed in the last two decades; people have become more materialistic and self-oriented. 'Social capital' has declined as Ireland becomes more marketised and society has consequently become less critical as marketisation diminishes spaces for critical/dissenting thought. As I commented in my first post, original problem-solving has given way to narcissistic pragmatism. Independent thought, as I see it, is related to, but not necessarily embodied, by a reaction against this process but that first of all requires creating the circumstances in which it could flourish.

Everyone in this thread is agreed that "something must be done" but people feel helpless, which may or may not be a form of apathy. People should be thinking more about why this has happened and what it is we all can do about it. So far, people's comments have been mostly anecdotal. We need concrete solutions.

People have had good ideas about how to change the school system. Let's start asking for that.

We're unhappy with our government. OK, here's a *crazy* suggestion. We'll give our government an ultimatum: if they don't improve things the way we want them, we won't vote for them. We offer them the ultimatum, they're forced to open up these issues to public debate and everybody wins. Then, when they *do* improve things, we vote for the fringe parties anyway. It would greatly benefit us to have a government made up of a broad coalition.

We should involve ourselves more in community and civic activities. Social activism is a social thing too, you know. We *need* more debate.

They're just a few random siggestions to 'push things forward' a bit, yeah?

Kell

OK, here's a *crazy* suggestion. We'll give our government an ultimatum: if they don't improve things the way we want them, we won't vote for them. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hum. Therein lies a bit of a catch 22. The minute someone gets on a soapbox at street corners looking for signatures to support such a motion, they get branded by the rest of Irish society as a militant freak and society looks the other way because their apathetic of the situation. Everyone is abundantly aware of the problems with government here and the appalling job they are doing of running the country, but the minute someone tries to do anything about it everyone else looks in the opposite direction.

K-

simu

The minute someone gets on a soapbox at street corners looking for signatures to support such a motion, they get branded by the rest of Irish society as a militant freak

I agree, Kell. Most people prefer to remain silent than risk being ridiculed. It's shocking how willing people are to conform.

All the same, standing on a street corner isn't very effective as, unfortuately, most ppl are too busy shopping or whatever to stop and listen. What's lacking are places where people can go and discuss issues that affect them. As for joining a political party(the solution most people suggest), it's obvious that coming up with innovative opinions won't get you anywhere in this country's political parties.
I wonder would it be better if we had public access TV and radio that would let people transmit ideas?

Sparks

What simu, you mean like a forum where you could post ideas and discuss things?

jmcc

Originally posted by simu
This is a generalisation but, in Ireland, I've often found myself in a group of intelligent people and I've noticed that when the conversation starts veering towards anything a bit too "intellectual" or "deep", people start getting embarassed and they try to change topic. Irish people also seem to prefer to avoid conflict - in France, I noticed, people were more willing to have debates when they found someone who had a different opinion than their own.

Yes Irish people tend to be more civilised as we've seen how disagreements over beliefs can mushroom. Life is too short to be wasted on deep conversations as beloved by 'philosophy' types. As for the term 'intellectual' it is a label that is self-applied by the hard of thinking. (I tend to be a bit cynical about people who consider themselves intellectuals because they are generally as thick as two planks and that gives them the edge over normal, everyday thickness.)

Historically, you can see how such a situation would have developed - France has a long history of standing up to authorities

Yes just like the Prussians and the Germans. I don't think that France has much of a history of standing up for anything given that all these things are really powershifts.

(the monarchy, the Church etc) whereas, in Ireland we were subjugated both by the British and by the Catholic Church until recently and I think we prefer to joke about our misfortunes than analysing them and trying to resolve them.

You solve things by actions not by talking about them. Analysis is highly overrated and is just an intellectual crutch for the chattering classes. It saves them from having to actually effect change.

I think teaching philosophy at L.C. would be far more fruitful than the time spent on the wishy-washy "Jesus loves you and will forgive you so don't give too much thought to your life"-type Catholicism I was taught in religion classes at school.

I think that teaching LC people how to drive or how to drink properly would be infinitely more valuable than either of the two and would probably be more useful than teaching them philosophy. Even something practical that they could actually use rather would be better.

Independent Thought is not as widely respected or encouraged as it should be in Ireland. It scares the hell out of those in power and it highlights the poverty of intellect of those making the rules. As a result, independent thinkers are sidelined and marginalised. Someone mentioned Yeats and Joyce in this thread. Yeats was the typical society insider posing as the rebel - a safe choice for what passed as the intelligensia. Joyce was the real independent thinker. He scared the sh1t out of those mental pgymies and he paid for it. Perhaps things are a bit different now but independent thinkers will always be in the minority. Sometimes they change the world but more often, the world changes them.

Regards...jmcc

DadaKopf

As for the term 'intellectual' it is a label that is self-applied by the hard of thinking. (I tend to be a bit cynical about people who consider themselves intellectuals because they are generally as thick as two planks and that gives them the edge over normal, everyday thickness.)

This is pure prejudice and groundless invective.

Analysis is highly overrated and is just an intellectual crutch for the chattering classes. It saves them from having to actually effect change.

This is complete nonsense.

I don't think that France has much of a history of standing up for anything given that all these things are really powershifts.

And what do people stand up against? Abuses of power, perhaps? More nonsense.

think that teaching LC people how to drive or how to drink properly would be infinitely more valuable than either of the two and would probably be more useful than teaching them philosophy.

No. Laws should be revised and enforced.

And then you reiterate everything everyone's already said anyway.

What's your point?

simu

Life is too short to be wasted on deep conversations as beloved by 'philosophy' types.

No offense jmcc, but your post is a classic example of the typical Irish attitude towards thinking - that it's for posers and that people would be better off if they didn't think beyond their next pint down the local.

Yes Irish people tend to be more civilised as we've seen how disagreements over beliefs can mushroom

Yes, wasn't it civilised of us, for example, to allow the Catholic Church to have a say in the running of the state for decades without question and all that happened as a result - Magdalen laundries, sexual abuse in orphanages and covering-up thereof, rejection of Neol Browne's mother and child scheme .... I could go on. Disagreement and being able to express differing opinions is the cornerstone of a functioning democratic society.

You solve things by actions not by talking about them

Action without thought would only lead to mindless violence - hardly the way to solve society's problems.

I think that teaching LC people how to drive or how to drink properly would be infinitely more valuable than either of the two and would probably be more useful than teaching them philosophy

People can learn to drive by themselves or with help from friends without too much difficulty - learning to think critically is a skill that is acquired by few - in fact, if people were encouraged to think about ethics and take responsibility for their actions, they might be more aware of the effects of their behaviour on society at large and they might find something more meaningful to do with their lives than drown themselves in alcohol every weekend.

I'm not saying France is heaven on earth at all - this certainly isn't true - but it's interesting to compare how different countries react to social problems. I also agree that it can be difficult to move from criticising the existing state of affairs to finding ways of changing it but giving up completely on improving life in this country and living from day to day like mindless consumers is certainly not the answer.

GuanYin

Originally posted by simu
Yes, wasn't it civilised of us, for example, to allow the Catholic Church to have a say in the running of the state for decades without question and all that happened as a result - Magdalen laundries, sexual abuse in orphanages and covering-up thereof, rejection of Neol Browne's mother and child scheme .... I could go on. Disagreement and being able to express differing opinions is the cornerstone of a functioning democratic society.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean about independent thought.

If you mean innovation, new world ideas and paradigm then I would say Ireland, for her size, is quite productive. Our education system now is built on a proud heritage of great thinkers (albeit not directly). Its one of the things I'm most proud of when I'm waving the Irish Passport.

However, if you are talking about the mindset of individuality versus mob mentally on a social level, I think we have failed in the recent past and probably still aren't out of the woods. The aforementioned catholic church and its nore sordid dealings is probably our darkest hour. Nowadays there are mob mentalities on certain current affairs issues such as refugees and I think we too readiliy accept the word of the devil...I mean the media.

Its good now that we are questioning things more, and it makes me laugh when people give out about Irish people being too cynical and how they hate the "cynical irish mindset". Given our past its something that we should embrace.

As soon as we stop questioning, the inquisitors come back inwith racks and irons and people nailed to trees. Our history is a case in point.

jmcc

Originally posted by DadaKopf
This is pure prejudice and groundless invective.

Yeah I guess you haven't met that many of this type then?

This is complete nonsense.

No it is not. Most people would rather talk about something than do something to change things. So they analyse things and feel good about it. But they rarely change anything.

And what do people stand up against? Abuses of power, perhaps? More nonsense.

No. Some people get together and decide there has to be a change. The herd tags along for the ride and very little if anything changes for the herd. These are powershifts and generally it is only the top tier that changes. Do some more reading on the history of revolutions.

No. Laws should be revised and enforced.

Very bright. But did it ever occur to you that teaching someone how to drive or how to drink properly might save their lives? Wouldn't that be somewhat better than wasting time with navel gazing philosophy courses?

My point is that some people are just not intellectually equipped for the deep thinking processes. They like the idea of being 'intellectual' but they are not interested in the hard work. They seem to think that merely talking about something or analysing something will change it. Perhaps in a Heisenbergian way it will but the reality is that most of them will never do anything to change things.

Look at any first or second year arts course and you will see the people who care deeply about something for all of a week These people are not the people who do the real thinking or effect real change.

In Ireland, you have got to be a lot tougher than in other countries to think independently. There is a vast difference between independent thinking and thinking that you are an independent thinker.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Originally posted by simu
No offense jmcc, but your post is a classic example of the typical Irish attitude towards thinking - that it's for posers and that people would be better off if they didn't think beyond their next pint down the local.

Read my post again and this time read it closely. Thinking is too important to be left to the idiots who call themselves intellectuals (as upposed to others calling them intellectuals). The poseurs that label themselves as 'intellectuals' are typically not bright enough or original enough to warrant the label. Most of them never had an original thought in their lives and never will. Indeed the nearest they've probably got to independent thinking is an op-ed column in the Irish Times.

Action without thought would only lead to mindless violence - hardly the way to solve society's problems.

From what I have seen, most people have an innate need to be led. It is a few key decision makers that dictate the actions. Even politics is about the delegation of power. Independent thought eventually comes into conflict with these power structures. Most people who consider themselves independent thinkers will easily be ground down in the face of such odds. A very few will continue on the same course. Since there are so few, they are easy to marginalise. Ever noticed how the mainstream media will use signifiers to identify people they do not agree with? One of the commonest terms is "outspoken". But then anyone who has got to that stage has stopped caring about what these people think. Perhaps teaching critical thinking skills for the LC is a good thing but you would have to start with the teachers.

Regards...jmcc
[I'll reply to the rest when I wake up.]

GuanYin

Originally posted by jmcc
No. Some people get together and decide there has to be a change. The herd tags along for the ride and very little if anything changes for the herd. These are powershifts and generally it is only the top tier that changes. Do some more reading on the history of revolutions.

Got to at least agree with him there. thats why they tend to be called "revolutions"....

Trebor

Originally posted by sykeirl
If you mean innovation, new world ideas and paradigm then I would say Ireland, for her size, is quite productive. Our education system now is built on a proud heritage of great thinkers (albeit not directly). Its one of the things I'm most proud of when I'm waving the Irish Passport.

you have to be joking?

we are at least five years behind most other developed countries technology and infrastucture wise. We only every do anything if another country has already done it or if they haven't the decision stays in committee stage or report stage until someone does.

I'll admit we do have a good education system but once people get the education they leave the country as there is no reseach here nor high paying jobs for them to go to.

and then when they do come up with an new independant thought it has to get passed so many lobbying groups before the government even gets to see it, it's unbelievable how much power so sectors of society have over policy and change in this country.

DadaKopf

Yeah I guess you haven't met that many of this type then?

Since you made the comments, how about you tell us who you think are 'this type' and reasons why.

No it is not. Most people would rather talk about something than do something to change things. So they analyse things and feel good about it. But they rarely change anything.

This isn't what you said. You said that analysis is less important than action. This is incorrect; neither is more or less important, both operate together dynamically. You're proposing something which it entirely unsustainable. It's this very imbalance which you seem to advocate that is part of Ireland's problems.

Moreover, you're failing to make a delineation between private and public spheres in Ireland. You imply that all we (or the middle classes?) do is talk, we never do anything. I disagree. In the private sphere, we're able to look after ourselves very well - Irish people have a well developed sense of private goods and that feeds our economy. Our problem is that we, as a society, are disconnected from the public sphere. We tend to see government and state as something that is done to us rather than for us or by us. In this arena, we certainly talk more than we act. This is due to many things like, as I mentioned in my first post, the legacy of colonialism. For whatever reasons, we're too self-serving so we're not as publically aware as we should be. This is especially so because successive governments have made representative democracy increasingly opaque and irrelevant. It's no wonder we talk so much. I suspect readers might react to this with "bah, nothing's going to change" - people simply aren't aware of their options.

We need to find ways to reconnect with public life. Many areas of private and public life have to be tackled - many of them are being tackled - and it's going to take time. The overriding feeling coming from this thread is pessimism - leave it at the door, please. We haven't any time for that.

My point is that some people are just not intellectually equipped for the deep thinking processes. They like the idea of being 'intellectual' but they are not interested in the hard work. [...] Look at any first or second year arts course and you will see the people who care deeply about something for all of a week These people are not the people who do the real thinking or effect real change.

Maybe you're an intellectual snob, I dunno. I'm not even demanding that everyone should be 'smart' or 'intellectual'. I'm saying that we, as Irish people, are socially disconnected from ourselves and our mutual tools of governance. We're neither adequately socially aware nor socially responsible. That doesn't take booksmarts, it takes a shift in mindset, back to something we used to have when we were an occupied country. Since the British left, we've never filled the vacuum they left behind.

But did it ever occur to you that teaching someone how to drive or how to drink properly might save their lives? Wouldn't that be somewhat better than wasting time with navel gazing philosophy courses?

In respect to driving: yes well done - tests should be much stricter and laws should be enforced. Not for the sake of law in itself but for the sake of the common good of public safety. As for teaching morality like 'Don't drink!' etc., preaching morals to children is counter-productive. The best approach is to give kids enough space to work out right and wrong for themselves - it's mutually reinforcing, indirectly teaches social responsibility and is impossible rebel against.

Edit: People might think I'm going off topic here. What all of this boils down to is whether we're able to change our society into something healthier in which spaces of debate and diversity are widened and trust between people is maximised. We also need to foster dissenting voices and get over the trauma of colonialism. It's in these conditions that independent thought can flourish and, from there, we can develop a stronger, modern sense of national identity and a more innovative, sustainable society.

GuanYin

Originally posted by Trebor
you have to be joking?

No, I'm deadly serious.
I've a poster here in front of me and it lists most of the following:

Robert Boyle (1627-1691)
Quite simply the father of modern chemistry.

Sir Francis Beaufort (1774-1857 )
Developed the Beaufort Wind Force Scale.

Rev. Nicholas Callan (1799-1864)
Developed the induction coil.

Sir William Rowan Hamilton (1805-1865)
Developed "Hamiltonian Mechanics" which is used today in determining satellite trajectories.

John Tyndall (1820 –1893)
Discovered the Tyndall effect (he scattering of light by invisibly small suspended particles). Importantly showed that air contains dust particles, Tyndall also showed that it contains micro-organisms (without which I wouldn't be in a job).

William Thomson Kelvin (1824–1907)
Developed the Kelvin temperature scale.
His work on the conservation of energy in 1851 led to the second law of thermodynamics.
Did most of the theoretical groundwork for what led to the first successful transatlantic telegraph cable.

John Phillip Holland (1841-1914)
Designed the blueprint for what are now modern navy submarines.

George Fitzgerald (1851-1901) Proposer of the Fitzgerald-Lorentz contraction in the theory of relativity as the explanation for the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment, which led directly to Einstein's Special Relativity.

Harry Ferguson (1884-1960)
Contributed tomodern agriculture with his design for what is now the basis of modern tractors.

Kathleen Londsdale (1903-1971)
Showed that Benzene has a flat ring structure (a discovery of paramount importance to organic chemistry).

Ernest Walton (1903-1995)
Nobel prize winner for Physics. With John Cockfort, split the nucleus of an atom for the first time.


Now if I was to add the world aclaimed literary geniuses that have come from Ireland in the past 200 years you can't but feel a tingle at the back of your neck thinking about how much this country has given the world in terms of independent thought and innovation.

Originally posted by Trebor
we are at least five years behind most other developed countries technology and infrastucture wise. We only every do anything if another country has already done it or if they haven't the decision stays in committee stage or report stage until someone does.

Thats down to politics. Not the same thing at all.
If its any consolation Micheal Collins is largely credited with developing modern guerilla warfare (Pol Pot studied him).

Originally posted by Trebor
I'll admit we do have a good education system but once people get the education they leave the country as there is no reseach here nor high paying jobs for them to go to.

I'm the first to moan about the state of education and research in this country, but the fact is, in terms of R&D we are a global village. Most of the important discoveries of the past 50 years have come from industry anyway as they have the resources. SFI grants (although impossible to get unless you are well established) are at least more money for potential postgrads and the Conway institute will hopefully give us another Nobel prize in the next 50 years.

Originally posted by Trebor
and then when they do come up with an new independant thought it has to get passed so many lobbying groups before the government even gets to see it, it's unbelievable how much power so sectors of society have over policy and change in this country.

Is this politics again?

Trebor

yes it is mostly politics

as it is the main reason why independent thought isn't valued. people only look at your proposal depending on who is backing it, not on it's merits, surely you can see this from a research point of view where you can only get grants for research for topics that will be profitable and topics that are studied for the sake of knowledge get sidelined?

ok i agree that we have had many great thinkers but to be honest can you say that we will see similar trends in the next 200 years?

in order to get this turned around you have to start with the politicans as they are the ones with the money. we are advertising ourselves as the new e-hub of europe yet most people leave school without knowing how to use a computer.

lesson's are thaught by the basis of getting enough information to pass an exam and not to know the subject. it's only at collage that this change's. I have heard that trinty has to give catch up classes in math's for as the level coming from secondary school is so bad.

sorry about the rant, got a thing about the government, and how they are spoiling it all for the rest of us

Sparks

from a research point of view where you can only get grants for research for topics that will be profitable and topics that are studied for the sake of knowledge get sidelined?

That's one of the worst problems in the research sector today - it's not something that should be admired or thought to have no adverse effects.

I have heard that trinty has to give catch up classes in math's for as the level coming from secondary school is so bad.

That's the engineering course in UL, not in TCD.
TCD just needs the classes, it doesn't have them...

Trebor

Originally posted by Sparks
That's one of the worst problems in the research sector today - it's not something that should be admired or thought to have no adverse effects.

that'a what i said, that the only way you can get research is if if is for something that will make money. never said it was to be admired.

sorry about the UL & Trinity mess up, my bad

GuanYin

Originally posted by Trebor
people only look at your proposal depending on who is backing it, not on it's merits, surely you can see this from a research point of view where you can only get grants for research for topics that will be profitable and topics that are studied for the sake of knowledge get sidelined?

Whoa!! Lets be realistic here. Its not up to grant boards to sponsor curiosity. Money is granted to those with valid scientific proposals that work towards an outcome of benefit to a)Science, b) Quality of Life, or c) industry, depending on who the grant is coming from.

In my field most of the profitable ideas come from the researchers themselves (or at least the PI's) and the grants are based on medical conditions and scientific advancement in medicine. Patenting is very often frowned upon.

The people who have the responsability to be studying for the sake of knowledge are the researchers. The people in the lab. They get paid to give something back to their sponsors and the general community yes, but any researcher worth their salt will be looking down all their own personal alleys of interest in the sp
are time off the main project.

Originally posted by Trebor

ok i agree that we have had many great thinkers but to be honest can you say that we will see similar trends in the next 200 years?

I would, and will, put money on there being an Irish Nobel Prize winner for science in the next 50 years.

Originally posted by Trebor
in order to get this turned around you have to start with the politicans as they are the ones with the money. we are advertising ourselves as the new e-hub of europe yet most people leave school without knowing how to use a computer.

Yep the education system is lamentable in many areas (and very good in others) but again I disagree with the main point. If you look at worldwide research resources across the diciplines you will see that far more money comes from military, corporate and patron sponsorship than government.

Originally posted by Trebor
lesson's are thaught by the basis of getting enough information to pass an exam and not to know the subject. it's only at collage that this change's. I have heard that trinty has to give catch up classes in math's for as the level coming from secondary school is so bad.

Yep, but some responsability has to go to the student too.
If I'm going to do a science course and I don't bother to try and know my subject area at leaving cert level then its my tough luck if I fail.

Originally posted by Trebor
sorry about the rant, got a thing about the government, and how they are spoiling it all for the rest of us

I thing this government is the worst I've seen in my time, but I still think that in matters of research and investment in thought and innovation they are average among most developed countries. There is alot of bad research and unambitious people in Ireland and that detracts from the view of Ireland in general. I think its 50-50 responsability at worst.

Trebor

Originally posted by sykeirl
I would, and will, put money on there being an Irish Nobel Prize winner for science in the next 50 years.

Yep, but some responsability has to go to the student too.
If I'm going to do a science course and I don't bother to try and know my subject area at leaving cert level then its my tough luck if I fail.

would that be you?

regarding the students taking a more active roll in their studies, ask any student going into sixth year this year and they will reply "haven't a clue" as to what they want to do after school. because so much is put on the passing of the exams and not introducing them to what the subjects they chosse could lead on to.

i myself may have to repeat the leaving cert this year in order to get into college all because when i was in school i was not told how the subject's would effect my application. i was told that if you don't do well in the leaving you won't get anywhere and all that retoric, which didn't help me as i wanted to study computers and nothing that we where doing in school had anything to do computers so i didn't put in the effort needed. it is only now that i have found out the i need a pass in honours maths to do the degree that i want and that is applying as a mature student! when i was told that as a mature student your exams don't matter!

anyway i will accept most of you other points as i am an outsider looking in and do not have all the knowledge about funding. i only know what i read and that is that our government is behind on R&D and as we don't have a military that only leaves the industry funding which as always is biased towards making money and not new idea's, unless they lead to money

GuanYin

Originally posted by Trebor
would that be you?

Hehe, I'm long past worrying about failing exams and I don't think my work will be viewed with enough worldwide importance to get considered for any awards (that said, they say these earthshattering discoveries are half hard, diligent work and half pure fluke, so ya never know... )

Originally posted by Trebor
regarding the students taking a more active roll in their studies, ask any student going into sixth year this year and they will reply "haven't a clue" as to what they want to do after school. because so much is put on the passing of the exams and not introducing them to what the subjects they chosse could lead on to.

Again, I put this down to the awful standard of career guidance education in this country (every school should have a professional, dedicated Career Guidance Teacher per 500 students) and the sheer laziness of the students.

The department of education has a couple of initiatives (women in technology being one) to get students to think about their careers but if students were actually taught about 3rd level and careers in the classroom they wouldn't need these PR schemes.

That said students walk blindly into college courses. Now how many people out there would take a 3 year job contract based on the title of the job and how good the local bar is? Well a few thousand students do it with college courses every year.

Originally posted by Trebor
i myself may have to repeat the leaving cert this year in order to get into college all because when i was in school i was not told how the subject's would effect my application. i was told that if you don't do well in the leaving you won't get anywhere and all that retoric, which didn't help me as i wanted to study computers and nothing that we where doing in school had anything to do computers so i didn't put in the effort needed. it is only now that i have found out the i need a pass in honours maths to do the degree that i want and that is applying as a mature student! when i was told that as a mature student your exams don't matter!

Sorry to hear that, hope it works out.

I can only really talk about my own area in terms of funding, in IT, Physics and Engineering its probably much different.

simu

jmcc, I agree that thinking is to important to be left to posers. That's why I think everybody should be encouraged to question how our society works. I don't expect the average person on the street to come up with revolutionary ideas or amazing innovations but imagine, for example, how much better life in Ireland would be if, when people hear about a refugee getting arrested they didn't automatically think "Oh, there you go, typical refugee behaviour" and if, instead, they analysed the situation and realised that most refugees are honest people. etc etc

Alot of the people who have influence in the media are posers IMO but the problem is that ordinary people feel too intimidated to challenge them. There is a tendency to dismiss all those who are genuinely trying to come up with new ideas as well. Calling thinking about the functioning of society and about ethics navel gazing is the lazy way out - if you think some one is only spouting pseudo-intellectual rubbish, it's more productive to come up with a counter-argument to this person rather than dismissing them as idiots and letting them continue to air their views (and influence other in the process).

Yes, most people do prefer to be led and I think this is something that we have to be wary of. I'm not suggesting we set up an anarchist state in Ireland but it would be better if people took more notice of current affairs and of how the country is governed.

For example, most cities in Ireland have areas that are essentially ghettos for the underpriviledged and no one seems to be serious about trying to improve life for these people. Consuming is becoming the national passtime - in my city, there is no where you can go to hang out with friends unless you have money to spend. For most young people nowadays, drug-taking is the norm - what repercussions will this have and is the prohibitive approach really working? Unis and schools are becoming commercialised also - companies that manufacture sweets send schools "educational packs" to use in class and nobody worries how this affects the childrens' eating habits and the educational environment.

There are alot of other things happening that also need to be questioned but generally, the reaction is :

"Ah, sure there's skangers in every city, just stay away from them"
"Sure of course you have to pay for things all the time. Sure it's ok once you have a good job, who cares about those who don't
etc etc

I'm sick of it!!

Kell

Originally posted by simu
jmcc, I agree that thinking is to important to be left to posers

Does no-one get when Al, aka JMCC, is taking the absolute piss just to wind you up?

simu

Surely ppl have better things to do with their time?

Even if he/she/it is, the views expressed are quite typical so, it is worthwhile replying.

jmcc

Originally posted by Kell
Does no-one get when Al, aka JMCC, is taking the absolute piss just to wind you up?

Someone is masquerading as me?

Seriously though, I do believe that thinking is too important to be left to the soi-disant experts in the media who seem to believe that they are important outside Dublin. Luckily these people seem to be confined to the pages of the Irish Times, the Sindo or the late shows on RTE. Perhaps it is a kind of intellectual arrogance that I regard some of these people in such a cold light. However I would not consider myself an 'intellectual'. Perhaps it is too easy to look at these people and see where they are lifting their ideas from and realise that they really are just people trying to make a living filling column inches or dead air.

Unfortunately having people think about the moral dilemmas and ehtics of society is not going to make a difference in the long run. most people are too busy trying to survive and as a result have little time to waste in, what many would consider, futile pastimes. At least with the lotto there is that vague chance of actually winning. In real terms what is the payback for Joe Soap after thinking deeply about ethics?

Coming up with a counter-argument is often a waste of time as it is extremely difficult to change the mind of a zealot.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Originally posted by DadaKopf
This is pure prejudice and groundless invective.

Yep I was proud of this - eminently quotable.

And what do people stand up against? Abuses of power, perhaps? More nonsense.

Generally what ever they are told to stand up against. The whole idea of democracy depends on people doing what they are told. Sure there are powershifts from time to time but very little changes.

No. Laws should be revised and enforced.

That's a bit fascist isn't it? Though I cannot see how teaching someone to take responsibility for themselves and their actions is worse than your suggestion above. Enforcement of the laws implies that there has been a failure. Attacking the cause rather than the effect may be somewhat more logical.

Regards...jmcc

DadaKopf

That's a bit fascist isn't it?

On the contrary. What's that bit in democracy... eh... "ruling and being ruled in turn"?

The whole idea of democracy depends on people doing what they are told.

The whole idea of democracy depends on consent and contract.

You're referring to people who have the power to control discourses in society. What you're actually talking about is how and why people in society consent to certain things. To say that people just do what they're told isn't even worth considering as a point, unless you're willing to flesh it out and back it up.

Anyway, this isn't a thread about democratic theory. Start another thread for that if you want.

jmcc

Originally posted by DadaKopf

The whole idea of democracy depends on consent and contract.

You're referring to people who have the power to control discourses in society. What you're actually talking about is how and why people in society consent to certain things. To say that people just do what they're told isn't even worth considering as a point, unless you're willing to flesh it out and back it up.

The way I see it, democracy is a very subtle form of terrorism based on the fear it creates of not following the law. In the death penalty days, it was the ultimate fear that the system could and would kill you.

Where it breaks down is when people accumulate so much power or money that they believe they can subvert democracy to their own ends. Thus you get the Nixon Whitehouse, the Iran-Contra thing, the Haughey affairs, the raft of tribunals etc.

People do not really have much of a choice as regards consent in that alone, it is very difficult to change anything. The talking heads are never really any threat to the status quo but people like to think that they have the power to change things. The reality is that very little power lies in the hands of the people these days. Society is far more complex and simple models of democracy do not seem to have any relevance any more.

Anyway, this isn't a thread about democratic theory. Start another thread for that if you want.

I know even less about democratic theory. I should not have posted at zero dark thirty on a Saturday/Sunday morning when some search engine code was not working out.

Regards...jmcc

DadaKopf

The way I see it, democracy is a very subtle form of terrorism based on the fear it creates of not following the law. In the death penalty days, it was the ultimate fear that the system could and would kill you.

Indeed, history shows this to be the case, but I think that says more about the operation of power at all levels of human activity rather than showing democracy to be a totalitarian system of coercion.

To my mind, democracy - theoretically at least - dissolves massive conglomerations of power by ensuring that the system is left open thereby allowing power structures to move more fluidly, which neccessarily permits resistance.

If the underlying logic of human relations is power relations, then it's hard to see any political system any other way. I don't think you use words lightly and I think that calling democracy 'terrorism' is too harsh and simplistic. There are always overriding discourses which set the rules for what things are allowed to be talked about. In Europe, the death penalty has become unacceptable behaviour as a result of the discourses we've had over the past century or so; fear now has much more to do with the anxiety caused by being abnormal or outside society. This isn't as much a plan by a few individuals as it is the product of highly complex power-relations (the process of history, basically). For example, what does it mean to be 'sick' and who says I'm sick? Or mad? Or free? As you rightly pointed out, state power is a form of control based on the anxiety caused by not following the law, or the doctor's treatments, or fashion.

Unfortunately, while democracy's internal logic runs counter to monolithic state power, as an open system it can't defend itself from it unless people resist it more. In Ireland, for whatever reasons - let's find those dominant discourses - we don't feel this is legitimate. This has to change.

While your comment isn't incorrect, I think it's extreme. I don't think you went to a deep enough level; democracy doesn't prescribe state terrorism, the human condition does. You know jmcc, you sound like an anarchist.