Dear UTVi, Comreg & IrelandOffline,

dahamsta

Pardon the rant, I'm just a wee bit frustrated.

We all know that Ireland is following Britain's lead almost to the letter when it comes to broadband rollout. Every single major event in Ireland's rollout process has happened before, across the water and up in the North, and we've seen them coming on every occasion. If we want to know what happens next, we need only ask our counterparts: John Doherty can drop Dave Edmonds a line; Dave Long can give the guys in CUT and Broadband4Britain a bell; and Scott can lean out of his office and shout at Malcolm.

The fact that this continues unabated is, every offense intended, idiocy on a grand scale. It has to stop. Everyone should be learning from the mistakes that were made in the process in the UK, but the only people that seem to have done that are the arrogant little bastards that pull the strings in Eircom, and in case you guys hadn't noticed, this isn't a good thing.

I realise your hands are tied to a degree, and I realise that many of you are doing your damndest to change the process, but change is incremental in computing and the Internet, so keeping pace just isn't good enough, we have to accelerate and build up a head of steam to catch up and overtake our competitors. We have to break the cycle, and "soon" isn't good enough, we have to do it now.

You guys are the only people that can break this cycle. Eircom obviously isn't going to do it, and EsatBT won't, because they don't want to compete. The smaller ISP's and the wireless guys would like to do it, but they can't because they don't have the power. You do. UTV has massive buying power and media resources; Comreg is learning from former incompetence; IrelandOffline has gained enormous respect.

It's time you guys got together properly to leverage your assets and break Eircom and Esat's duopoly. First things first: Don't wait for Eircom to set up a registration system for broadband, because you know they'll try and avoid it for as long as humanly possible. Circumvent them. Get together now and draw up the plans for it, implement it, and shove it down Eircom's throat.

Rant over, we now return you to regular programming.

adam

Goddammit, wrong forum. See what happens when I'm mad?

sceptre

Originally posted by dahamsta
Goddammit, wrong forum. See what happens when I'm mad?

Moved over

shinzon

*mod edit* Shinzon, there is no need to quote the entire reply every time.


very well put dahamsta but ye know in your heart and soul that is going to get as much of a response as a fart in a wind tunnel ie none

regards

shin

Dangger

I hear you! We've been wrestling with the demand registration mechanism for some time.

Only yesterday, we had a detailed discussion on the merits and potential pitfalls of such a system with the Telecommunications Strategy Group.

However if we follow the trigger level routes as used by BT, it's to the benefit of the fixed line operators. It would have to be a system for registering interest for broadband which could be responded to equally by wireless and fixed line operators. I think it is safe to say that wireless operators would need a lower trigger level for them to go ahead and roll out in an area, but then again if they go ahead, as demand grows it also plays into the hands of fixed line operators to enter the same area by enabling an exchange. There may be no harm in that but it could be argued that such a system plays more into the fixed line operators schemes.

I personally feel that IOFFL is the only organisation that could be labelled neutral enough to hold the keys to any sort of demand registration system.

I've also gone a little further on this idea and have a graphical demand plotter implemented. It's basically a flash (Macromedia Flash user interface) map of Ireland allowing people to stick their pin in to plot demand with bells and whistles.

It was previously a commercial product which was kindly donated to the cause. What has slowed me down is the mapping of the geographical information, ie the streets and towns onto the map. Ideally we'd like it as accurate as possible, but we cannot afford to purchase the information from the Ordanace Survey, or some other such body.

spongebob

IoffL are

1. Vendor neutral
2. Solution neutral
3. Well recognised as such

It would be an idea to approach Forfás and to hire a few 'underemployed' recent grads for a bit of work experience to implement this.

The figures can go straight into the public domain after a bit of cleaning up (removing double votes and the like) and can be used by localised groups to support their own arguments.

I feel that no other group in Ireland has the 'reach' to do this and that it should be done. It would provide a national voice for Local initiatives such as Kinvara in South Galway and could help standardise the demand aggregation.

IMO it is pointless to ask for DSL (per se) in Kinvara, that is not the same as asking for Broadband however.

M

dahamsta

The original post was a complete screw-up. I started out with a perfectly good suggestion in my head, turned it into a hair-raising rant - you should have seen it before the pre-post edit - realised what I was doing and tried to twist it back into an suggestion, and completely screwed it up along the way. I'll try again. The point I failed miserably to make was:

Some of us are already trying to do this, there's already local pressure groups out there for Kineggad and Ballinlough and there's at least one more being considered. However we're faced with a problem, in that there's no "standard" for collecting registrations, and in all honesty we really don't know what we should be doing. Unless a standard is defined rapidly, we're going to follow in the UK's footsteps again.

If Eircom had an ounce of sense, they'd define the standard, because by not doing it they're just postponing the inevitable, and their continued attempts to frustrate the rollout are just going to create more and more animosity with their customers -- if they keep going the way they are, they're going to follow in BT's footsteps too, losing hundreds of thousands of Internet /and/ telephony customers*.

If Eircom won't do it, then Comreg should - and probably already have - but Eircom will battle this and if it's just a battle against Comreg, they'll succeed in delaying proceedings, as they have with everything else in the rollout process. My suggestion is that Comreg, IrelandOffline and UTVi should organise a working group to develop a standard and manage a rollout quickly and efficiently.

Eircom and Esat should be invited to this working group, as should every other Internet Service Provider. Internet Service Providers small and large should turn up to frustrate Eircom and EsatBT's attempts to frustrate the working group, and while the duopoly is distracted with minor matters, Comreg, IrelandOffline and UTVi should pool their skills and assets and leverage them to piledrive a standard home.

It can be done, it should be done, it needs to be done; and quickly. Please, help us help ourselves.

adam

*I said earlier that Eircom had learned from BT, but this isn't the same as saying they learned their lesson. What they learned is how to stall and obfuscate more effectively. BT is Eircom's terrorist training camp.

Xian

I take your point to be, essentially, "develop a "standard" for collecting registrations we can break the Eircom/Esat duopoly".

The first part doesn't seem too difficult: if you don't have one to hand, develop it yourself - you can see what information Eircom are looking for in their registry of interest. Seems like a de facto standard to me.

The second part intrigues: how is this to "break the duopoly"?

Ireland is not the same as the UK (I don't believe they are going about things in the right way, mainly because of the public-sanctioned cornering of the broadband market does not bode well for its future competitiveness, but that's another day's discussion) and so I don't understand why we should be following their lead. BT has for some time committed itself to the rollout of DSL in response to competition from cable companies. Part of this commitment is the setting of trigger levels for exchanges so that, once the required number of people have expressed an interest, the exchange would be enabled.

Eircom have given no indication of a commitment to further rollout DSL beyond the 150 exchanges to be enabled by September 2004. Therefore no trigger level has been set. Nor do they have an incentive to rollout given the absence of competition and the inevitability of profit cannibilization from leased lines (particularly lucrative in rural areas) if they were to do so. Eircom are therefore free to set their own criteria for enabling an exchange based on the data you provide them. If you're lucky, yours might be one of the few exchanges they choose to cherry-pick if they decide the economics are right. If not, tough. What then of the effort you have put into the campaign? Take it to your public representative? 950 times? The first few may be successful, agreed, but how long before this one-trick pony loses its appeal, and what of the ones who weren't first in line when it was a fresh idea? The broadband4x concept carries with it the "I'm-alright-jack" attitude which favours larger populations and larger exchanges leaving the others out in the cold.

Also, the lack of a clear incentive to register will result in less people signing up. Why should they - all you can sell them is some vague possibility, added to the fact that 50% of lines (maybe you?) will fail and a number of potential supporters live outside range of the exchange, it certainly doesn't amount to something to "build up a head of steam" about. No incentive to register means the exercise will show a lower than real figure for demand in the area. The consequence of an Eircom response to the effect that there is insufficient demand in your area to enable the exchange would set us all back farther than we are now.

In addition, why provide the information ot Eircom? Why not Amocom? Digiweb? Irish Broadband? Leap? IrishWISP? Net1? I fail to see the "conflict of interest" you claim (with CorkWAN I assume) - it certainly goes against the grain of your previously expressed opinions if Eircom are the preferred solution. How is trying to get Eircom to take your money "kicking a bully when he's down" exactly?

And so, what do you say to the people on your exchange who supported you if you don't succeed, or, if you do, whose line fails, who are out of range, to the people in other exchanges who's chance of having theirs enabled is lessened, to the competitors who could have provided a broader service if the information had been provided to them? To my mind, the only certain beneficiary of the entire scheme is Eircom itself, for none of the risk.

All in all it seems a lot of effort for little gain, and the very real risk of a lot lost.

Don't get me wrong: there is a time for this kind of initiative, as Dave describes it. Right now isn't the time, though. The missing link at the moment is incentive: the linking of supply with the demand we already know is there.

By this I mean meeting with all providers of broadband and agreeing with them the criteria they would require to be met to rollout in a given area, I mean negotiating for support for rural areas where a commercial case cannot be made for the provision of broadband, I mean campaigning for tax incentives to level the playing field wrt competitive broadband provision - all part of the agenda we have set ourselves as presented to the joint committee for communications.

dahamsta

The first part doesn't seem too difficult: if you don't have one to hand, develop it yourself - you can see what information Eircom are looking for in their registry of interest. Seems like a de facto standard to me.

If I define a standard, Eircom can easily come along later and say, "this information isn't suitable," which forces bb4 operators to start all over again. They could do this because I only have two address fields, where they require three; or because I have a bunch of postcodes with N/A, or because I used unicode to store the data, whereas I should have used ISO-8859-1; or any other reason they want to make up.

I'm willing to take that risk because I know my exchange is scheduled to be upgraded, and it might help others that come along after me, but what about people that set up in parallel with me, as some have already done? And what happens when we go back with changes, and Eircom says, "oh yes, you've corrected $that, but $this is wrong", and so on. I'm not qualified to define a standard, UTV and Comreg are.

I would have thought IrelandOffline would like to contribute to the process.

The second part intrigues: how is this to "break the duopoly"?

In Ireland, we effectively have a monopoly at wholesale level and a duopoly at retail level, with an upstart (UTVi). The monopoly is a bastard to crack, because we don't have alternative infrastructures, and although I respect IrelandOffline's decision to address this by encouraging alternatives such as wireless, there is a veneer of lightheadedness about this effort, as if the landscape will change overnight.

No matter what sector a monopoly is in, if it's an infrastructural monopoloy you can't break it in the short term, or even the medium term most of the time. Eircom's wholesale monopoly will take a half decade to crack, minimum. So cracking the duopoly should be the short-term goal, and this is the timescale IrelandOffline should be thinking in terms of. This is one way to encourage new ISP's to enter the market.

Ireland is not the same as the UK ... so I don't understand why we should be following their lead.

We already /are/ following their lead, and it's unlikely that the process will morph dramatically from the UK process. I'm simply suggesting that we accelerate it.

... Eircom have given no indication of a commitment to further rollout DSL beyond the 150 exchanges to be enabled by September 2004.

They haven't given one, but in time they will be forced to.

If you're lucky, yours might be one of the few exchanges they choose to cherry-pick if they decide the economics are right. If not, tough. What then of the effort you have put into the campaign?

So I shouldn't do it based on your assumptions and projections? Should opposition politicians in Zimbabwe stop trying to remove Mugabwe from power?

The broadband4x concept carries with it the "I'm-alright-jack" attitude which favours larger populations and larger exchanges leaving the others out in the cold.

So I should drop a campaign that has a chance and replace it with a campaign pressuring for equal access for all to DSL, even though it's not commercially viable or logical, and is a hundred or a thousand times less likely to succeed?

In addition, why provide the information ot Eircom? Why not Amocom? Digiweb? Irish Broadband? Leap? IrishWISP? Net1?

If you actually read the development website set up for broadband4ballinlough, you will see that I intend providing information to OLO's and politicians, with registrants permissions. You did visit the website to see what it was about before you opened your mouth, didn't you?

I fail to see the "conflict of interest" you claim (with CorkWAN I assume) - it certainly goes against the grain of your previously expressed opinions if Eircom are the preferred solution.

Yes, CorkWAN is one element of the conflict of interest I mentioned, in that CorkWAN would be competing directly with DSL, which some might think would affect my committment to broadband4ballinlough. There is one other, more important element, which I'm prevented from discussing at this time. You fail to see the conflict of interest because you don't know the facts. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this.

How is trying to get Eircom to take your money "kicking a bully when he's down" exactly?

There are other operators Xian.

And so, what do you say to the people on your exchange who supported you if you don't succeed

I say "it didn't work, sorry". I don't make any promises, and it would be wrong of me to do so. Again, are you saying I shouldn't do this because there is a /chance/ I mightn't succeed? Should Amnesty International disband now? Greenpeace?

or, if you do, whose line fails, who are out of range

Your alternative is wireless, yes? What about the people you represent who can't connect to those networks? Like me. What about those who are near a POP but don't have LOS? Don't make me laugh.

To my mind, the only certain beneficiary of the entire scheme is Eircom itself, for none of the risk.

You'd better give Netsource and UTV a bell to tell them they're in the wrong business so.

All in all it seems a lot of effort for little gain, and the very real risk of a lot lost.

It would be a big gain for me, and others in Ballinlough who simply /can't/ get broadband in Ballinlough at the moment without paying outrageous prices for satellite connections or semi-outrageous prices for wireless from Amocom or Esat.

Don't get me wrong: there is a time for this kind of initiative, as Dave describes it. Right now isn't the time, though.

Bollocks.

By this I mean meeting with all providers of broadband and agreeing with them the criteria they would require to be met to rollout in a given area, I mean negotiating for support for rural areas where a commercial case cannot be made for the provision of broadband, I mean campaigning for tax incentives to level the playing field wrt competitive broadband provision - all part of the agenda we have set ourselves as presented to the joint committee for communications.

I'm not on the committee of IrelandOffline any more. That's your job, not mine. Snap to it.

Can I ask you Xian, did you think for a second before you hit reply and spouted off this utter rubbish at me? Did you think for a second of ways that my suggestion could be improved before you attacked and dismissed it out of hand? Or did you just want to have a go off dahamsta for old times sake?

Do me a favour Xian, don't reply to my posts. You're wasting your time and mine.

adam

DeVore

Light or heat?

DeV.

SkepticOne

I would tend to agree with Xian's detailed and considered reply. While it may seem like the thing to do, these projects merely serve to extend the existing monopoly's reach or divert it from somewhere else (if they work at all), with the organisers acting as unpaid salespersons for the incumbent.

But in addition to rereading Xian's post, I would suggest to Adam that he continues with the project, since his exchange will be upgraded regardless. Such projects may be appropriate in the future and others might learn from this one, though I expect substantial changes would be required.

Yoda

Originally posted by dahamsta
No matter what sector a monopoly is in, if it's an infrastructural monopoloy you can't break it in the short term, or even the medium term most of the time.

You're right, Adam. So long as you are tied to the infrastructure, it's hard to change the monopoly's practices. But if you jump laterally to a different kind of infrastructure then the monopoly can just sit back and do whatever it wants (e.g. nothing now, nothing soon, or just plain nothing). That, for me, is the promise of wireless broadband for Ireland.

spongebob

Originally posted by dahamsta

Some of us are already trying to do this, there's already local pressure groups out there for Kineggad and Ballinlough and there's at least one more being considered. However we're faced with a problem, in that there's no "standard" for collecting registrations, and in all honesty we really don't know what we should be doing.

512/256 20:1 contention €39.99 a month

Thats the standard whether over cable, pots or wireless. IoffL is platform and carrier agnostic anyway so that what we sign up for, this ain't Sweden .

The price/performance basket can change when we hit 5% of the population with BB. As there are 1.4m Households in Ireland, this may help get us to 70,000 Residential BB connections. We may now have 3,000-4,000 between Cable/Wireless and DSL. Thats not counting Businesses.

It also sets the IoffL price point . That in itself is a statement.

Only NTL (and IBB soon I hope) are reasonably compliant with the objective.

M

dahamsta

Not what I was talking about at all Muck, but while we're on the subject, I'd like to see you cost out a WISP and come out with those figures on the far side. I've done the costings, and as far as I can see you can't hit those magical figures without major investment and/or long-term targets; something that's at odds with the ideal of minimal and community WISP's breaking the mold. In all honesty my costings haven't gone further than the back of a napkin yet, but I'm having difficulty hiting a €49.99/month price point with those, never mind €39.99/month.

adam

spongebob

It is a tad aspirational Adam, I agree with you there.

Its a good aspiration though

dahamsta

Absolutely, and it's an aspiration I have.

Of course the other difficulty with wireless is getting installation fees down to something manageable for residential customers. Your CPE's going to cost you €150 or thereabouts and your installer's likely to double that, which is a pretty hefty investment for a residential customer, particularly at the moment. And again, it's really difficult for a small operator to cover and/or justify subsidies.

adam

spongebob

I suggest that you talk to your local TD who is an opposition spokeman on Communications ISTR.

M

dahamsta

Got it Muck, thanks. And believe me, I'm well aware of Mr Coveney.

adam

spongebob

That you will go wreck his head and not ours....seeing as I gave ya the ammo and all.

M

BigEejit

Originally posted by dahamsta
Got it Muck, thanks. And believe me, I'm well aware of Mr Coveney.

adam

heh ... I bet he is well aware of you too Adam if not now, he'll know all about it soon !!