No2Nice man Justin Barrett and the Neo-Nazi right wingers

PH01

There's a story in the IT today about Justin Barrett, of the No2Nice campaign (http://www.no2nice.org) and his association with right wing Neo-Nazi groups in Germany.

Do you think that it is right?


See -> http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2002/1011/927689545HM1BARRETT.html

Hellrazer

You forgot to mention that he is also the leader of Youth Defence who as far as Im concerned are all facists anyway.
And Yes he has been seen at a few Neo-Nazi meetings.
Think there was a story in one of the Sunday papers last wek about it.

Check out www.truthtv.org to see his accomplishments--they even have a video of an abortion being carried out.

gandalf

PH is it possible to quote that article as most of us are too scabby to subscribe to the IT

As for Mr. Barrett eventhough we share the same opinion on the Nice treaty I hold very different views to him. I am pro Choice and not just because I believe the person directly effected should have the choice on what happens to her body but for other reasons as well. I have a aversion to organised religions and especially cult like organisations like Opus Dei with which Mr. Barrett I believe is a member or closely affiliated.

However if people as diverse in opinions and beliefs as myself and Mr. Barrett disagree with this treaty so strongly then I suggest that there is more to it than implied racism or small mindedness (is that a word).

Gandalf.

Hellrazer

The story has actually been confirmed on http://home.eircom.net/news/TopStories/story.asp?id=1

Borzoi

Interesting poll PH, is the implication that if you're going to vote no you're a neo nazi?

I presume you're just being facetious.

And BTW so there's no doubt. I've voted no and can't stand the far right, and most quasi-religious groups

BuffyBot

Interesting articles - well, imho, he's a fruitcake anyway - but apart from that, I'm sure this will surely do some damage to his credibility

Typedef

And this article is about as good a reason to vote Yes as the corruption of Fianna Fial ministers is reason to vote No.

Quid Pro Quo Agent Starling.

http://www.no2nice.org.
Do not let the process of Irish Referenda become subservient to a Supra National Federalist edict. Requantify Ireland's democratic voice and vote No the the Nice Treaty.

Cuidado con el gato baby

spongebob

the Green party are against as well. By no stretch of the imagination are they neo nazis.......except maybe the vegan wing of the green party.

M

Moriarty

Originally posted by Typedef
http://www.no2nice.org.
Do not let the process of Irish Referenda become subservient to a Supra National Federalist edict. Requantify Ireland's democratic voice and vote No the the Nice Treaty.

And there i was, in all my innocence, thinking that if i turned off sig's i wouldnt have to look at more of this.. The mind boggles tbh tbh.

bertiebowl

Extreme-right group confirms Barrett link
By Derek Scally, in Berlin, and Deaglán de Bréadún, in Dublin



Mr Justin Barrett, the chief spokesman of the No to Nice campaign and a leading figure in the Youth Defence anti-abortion group, has close contacts with an extreme right-wing party in Germany which the authorities there believe has "Nazi characteristics".

Mr Barrett has attended conferences and spoken at an event organised by Germany's National Democratic Party (NPD). Two years ago he attended an NPD rally in the Bavarian city of Passau as a representative of Youth Defence.

His name appears as one of the "honorary guests" at the event in Die Deutsche Stimme (The German Voice), the NPD party newspaper. The NPD described the rally, the largest by the party to date, as a day of national resistance. It was held in May 2000, and over 6,000 party members attended.

Other honorary guests included an Italian right-wing extremist and a former Nazi SS officer, who received a standing ovation.

Last month, when allegations about his links with the German organisation were first made in a Sunday newspaper, Mr Barrett threatened to sue it. He also threatened legal action against other media organisations, including The Irish Times.

Yesterday however, senior figures in the NPD and its youth wing confirmed his involvement.

"Justin Barrett was an honorary guest at our event in Passau. I invited him. He sat with the delegates," said Mr Holger Apfel, the deputy leader of the NPD. "We have been in contact with his group since 1996. We are friendly with his Youth Defence organisation."

When this was put to Mr Barrett, he declined to confirm or deny that he attended the event.

"That will be dealt with by the High Court," he said. "This is a smear campaign started by that gutter newspaper the Sunday Mirror and obviously The Irish Times is now working on it as part of this campaign by the Yes side."

The Irish Times has learned that in addition to his NPD contacts, Mr Barrett has a long-standing relationship with the party's youth organisation, the Young National Democrats (JN), a recruiting ground for the NPD. Mr Sascha Rossmüller, leader of JN, said he had been in contact with Mr Barrett "for several years". Youth Defence "shares many important interests" with the JN and is "an important part of our international network", said Mr Rossmüller. Other organisations in the network include the National Front in Britain and Italy's extremist group, Forza Nuova. The German government applied two years ago to the country's highest court to have the NPD banned. The government argues that the party poses a threat to democracy."


There you go lads - No to Nice = Christian Taliban - be careful how you vote

Today: Nice

Tomorrow: Abortion

The day after: Your television

Typedef

Oh good Bertiebowl. So by your logic.

A Yes to Nice means, a Yes to corrupt Ministers, various welched election lies, overspent public finances and election re-runs in perpetuity.

It's a pity the Yes people have declared themselves officially bored with arguing the merits or more accurately the absolute lack of merits of the Nice Treaty for Ireland.

I suppose when all else fails a slur campaign will have to suffice hmm?

DeVore

If Justin Barrett were to run naked down O'Connell Street with a Swastika painted on both cheeks of his arse singing "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles" sporting a Hitler moustache...

... that should affect my vote on Nice exactly how?


This stinks of dirty tricks. They wait till now and then pull out this sort of political journalism.... you have to question the timing.

For shame Irish Times, I expected better.


I've yet to make up my mind but this sort of thing really makes me think they are desperate and havent a logical argument for a YES vote.

I've yet to hear anything from the YES camp that isnt a threat or a vague FUD scare story.

DeV.

Talliesin

I think Barrett is a dispicable little sh¡t. However I also think his analysis of Nice is wrong.

Voting Yes does not entail any agreement with anything Barrett says. (Do you really think the Green Party has a large number of Barrett fellow-travellers amongst its ranks?)

Shazbat

Originally posted by PH01
I'm not attempting to link anybody from the No2Nice campaign with Neo Nazis for Justin Barrett seems to be doing a pretty good job at this on his own.

Justin Barrett is a crank and he gets far too much media interest, it would be better to ignore him and then he might go away.

If u have a problem with barrett fine, its totally understandable if the whole neo-nazi thing is true. Its perfectly understandable if u have a problem with him even if it isn't true (I for one think he is a spanner).

But keep nice out of it, if you are hoping that people will be persuaded to vote yes you are wasting your time anyway, I think that the electorate is immune to scaremongering at this stage(at least the intelligent portion of it).

mike65

As someone who'd vote yes if he could I'd like to think this would make a difference but I suspect it won't as those who are swayed by Justin Barrets nutcase social views are proberly a bit facist anyway...

Mike.

DMC

Just to point out that the Sunday Mirror published this story about Barrett first last Sunday.... it seems that the Irish Times and co have been sitting on it and checking its accuracy before publishing it themselves.

Meh

Originally posted by Shazbat
Justin Barrett is a crank and he gets far too much media interest, it would be better to ignore him and then he might go away.

Well, he is one of the most visible campaigners in a referendum which will have a major impact on Ireland's future (no matter what the result). Should the media just ignore him?

Aren't the no2nice.org people always complaining about the media not covering them? (on their website, they complain about "a suspicious blackout on covering our activities in the national media both print and broadcast"). Surely they should be delighted that they're finally getting coverage?

Also, I doubt anyone will change their vote because of this story. The electorate is smart enough to distinguish between Barrett's dodgy taste in friends and the Nice Treaty.

Cork

QUOTE]"It is surprising that Justin Barrett took so long to remember that he had been at the National Democratic Party's (NDP) rally in Germany. It is even more surprising that he didn't realise that in attending, he was endorsing a blatantly neo-nazi party," said Mr Durkan.[/QUOTE]

Fine Gael Party Chairman Bernard Durkan

It is surprising that Bernard Durkan or anybody else in FG cannot remember Enda Kennys little Joke or they once got Twink to provide some light entertainment at a FG Ard Fheis?

Shazbat

Originally posted by Meh
Well, he is one of the most visible campaigners in a referendum ......Should the media just ignore him?

But he is only visible because of the media not ignoring him.

A bit of a catch 22 situation?

mike65

It is surprising that Bernard Durkan or anybody else in FG cannot remember Enda Kennys little Joke or they once got Twink to provide some light entertainment at a FG Ard Fheis?

Pigman stop being a muppet, Enda Kenny simply showed poor judgement in re-telling an unfunny story with the word ni*g*r (I'm censoring this to save someone else time) in it, Barrett is a right wing nutcase in the company of neo-facists.

The Twink thing was embarrassing though...

Mike.

Cork

Pigman stop being a muppet, Enda Kenny simply showed poor judgement in re-telling an unfunny story with the word ni*g*r (I'm censoring this to save someone else time) in it, Barrett is a right wing nutcase in the company of neo-facists.

Kenny is a the leader of our second largest political party.

He is a member of the Oireachtas.

Enda Kenny simply showed poor judgement in re-telling an unfunny story with the word ni*g*r

Justin Barrett too showed some poor Judgement.

But Justin has not Endas experience of politics. Justin has admitted - what he did was wrong.

Many our people at tribunerals - the truth has to be dragged out of them.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Justin Barrett too showed some poor Judgement.

But Justin has not Endas experience of politics. Justin has admitted - what he did was wrong.

I'm not going to bother defending Enda Kenny. I think he made a fundamental error that will come back and bite him in the ass.

Justin Barrett has been making mistakes over and over in the past two years. And IMHO in the ten years previous to that.

Enda Kenny is a bit of a plonker. Justin Barrett is a career plonker. He's been a liability to every movement he's been involved in.

The Gopher

He denies he knew it was a neo Nazi event.On RTE last night they showed footage of the conference-featuring muslced German men in brown shirts carrying flags which while not Nazi were obviously copied(I think its illegal to display swastikas etc in Germany).So basically they were doing the anti nazi flag laws to their limit by holding flags about as different to nazi flags as the difference between dark blue and navy.
Then again Barret certainly SOUNDS like an idiot when he talks-maybe he really is one;) Personally I support the things his group stands for but it is possible that he be of little intelligence.

Cork

The Yes to nice people have lost the arguement - the only way they have left is to jump on Justin Barrett. Justin Barrett did wrong in going to such conferences but the Yes crowd are trying to use the Justin Barrett thing as a whip aganist the No people.

Are we to use IBECS opposition to the mimimum wage?
Are we to use the Flood Tribuneral report?
Are we to use the Enda Kenny remarks?

I say NO

Lets judge this shambles of a treaty.

I'll say No again.

billymeehan

Got to say, as someone who is largely undecided on the Nice treaty, the No campaigners are doing a good job of shooting themselves in the foot. The main advocates are either Hippys (the greens), ex-terrorists (the shinners) or bloody neo-nazi's (Barrett).

mike65

Pigman, IBECs views on the min wage are irelevant as the min wage exisits and will stay no matter what they say.

The Tribunals are an internal polictical/judicial bunfight not conected to Nice.

Enda Kennys bad jokes/stoires are not connected to Nice.

Mike.

beardedchicken

Originally posted by The Gopher
He denies he knew it was a neo Nazi event.

oh, right, of course!! this man expects people to believe that he went to this "meeting" (his word) or "rally" (my word) without ANY knowledge of the actions, ideologies, or background of the group to whom he was asked to address?? Absolute Garbage!

the man may be a right wing idiot, with the rhetorical skills of a petulant child, but i do not believe for a second that someone with his experience of being in the public eye, campaigning against this, that and the other would do NO research whatsoever into the people who invite him all the way over to germany to speak! does he honestly expect people to swallow that crap?

oh, and then he has the audacity to say that he holds "no extremist views" of course not, justin, apart from your trenchent anti-choice views and links with hyper-religious groups like opus dei!

Cork

Originally posted by billymeehan
Got to say, as someone who is largely undecided on the Nice treaty, the No campaigners are doing a good job of shooting themselves in the foot. The main advocates are either Hippys (the greens), ex-terrorists (the shinners) or bloody neo-nazi's (Barrett).

The YES crowd too are a stange brigade -
IBEC and Labour.
The IFA and the Unions
FF and FG

Don't let this thing influence your vote or the flood report - this treaty is a mess and I think it will be judged as such.

I never knew Trevor Sargent was a hippy? I would be interested to know - where you heard this?

Originally posted by Cork
The Yes to nice people have lost the arguement wrong in
Lets judge this shambles of a treaty.

I'll say No again.

fair enough, you are as entitled to vote no as I am to vote yes.
But could you expand on your one liner above, that the yes to Nice people have lost the argument??
And on why you think the treaty is a shambles, then maybe I can make some effort at a reply.

Incidently Justin Barret stated last night that this nazi thing came from the FF press office.
I do not know if that was the case but it's irrelevant to the Campaign for or against the treaty.
It's also highly embarrasing that a leading no campaigner should be caught out that way.
If you ask me anyhow , I think Justin Barrett is probably secretly a single issue no campaigner, in that he is under the mis guided impression that the E.U will introduce abortion in this country.
( I am not arguing the pro's or con's of that here )
He'll campaign untill he is blue in the face against all things in the Nice treaty as it might bring in non catholic laws.

He's on very thin ice then, being caught attending a far right political rally considering, most of neo nazi opinion is vehemently anti catholic.
mm

Originally posted by Cork
The YES crowd too are a stange brigade -
IBEC and Labour.
The IFA and the Unions
FF and FG

Don't let this thing influence your vote or the flood report - this treaty is a mess and I think it will be judged as such.

I never knew Trevor Sargent was a hippy? I would be interested to know - where you heard this?

cork are you saying that these people are strange bed fellows, and shouldn't agree on anything??

They did agree by and large on the ppf and it's predecessors, so agreeing on something else like the Nice Treaty wouldn't be a first.
mm

Cork

cork are you saying that these people are strange bed fellows, and shouldn't agree on anything??

No, I am saying that if they can agree on a shoddy treaty like the Nice treaty - they should agree more.

FF can not go into coalition with FG
FG can not go into coalition with FF
Labour does not know - what it wants.
IBEC and the unions tend to disagree alot

It's also highly embarrasing that a leading no campaigner should be caught out that way

What about Enda Kenny's ****** remarks?
Is Justin Barrett guilty by association?

We had loyalists up North tageting the SDLP - because they were part of a "Pan Nationalist Front".

This Yes Brigade and their lavish campaign have indeed lost the arguement. They have lost the trust of the Irish people.

People like Raymond Crotty were statesmen. What do you call a 6000 strong Rapid Reaction force? An army? No...................Its a differant animal entirely.

It will be as accountable and as democratic as the EU. For those who don't know - the EU is not democratic or accountable.

Meh

Originally posted by Cork
It will be as accountable and as democratic as the EU. For those who don't know - the EU is not democratic or accountable.

What's undemocratic about the European Parliament? What's unaccountable about the European Commission (it's directly accountable to the Parliament)? And the members of the Council of Ministers are directly accountable to the democratically elected governments in their respective countries.

sceptre

Ray Crotty was a crank, albeit a crank with a purpose. His purpose was to stop the SEA coming into effect. He failed in his main target but succeeded in another. In the process he gave us a situation where any EU treaties would have to be approved by the Irish people in a referendum before being passed. For that I'm truly thankful. Cork, I don't know if you're even old enough to remember the middle 80s - if you were you'd probably think more before you type.

Justin Barrett himself has pleaded guilty but ignorant. If he's guilty of anything more than being an idiot, it is indeed by association - association with a neo-Nazi group rather than with an anti-Nice lobby.

What loyalists did up North is irrelevant to the argument you're espousing.

And FF could go into coalition with FG in the morning if they both wanted to. They don't want to. So what? That's nothing to do with the argument either.

With regard to IBEC and the unions, of course they disagree on many things. They're representing two different groups which frankly don't have a lot in common. If they actually agreed on a lot of things it would be safe to assume that someone was getting a payoff. It's their privilege to agree on this point if they think that Nice would be good for the country. Given that they appear to have made a considered opinion based on the evidence (and given that they largely stick to economic arguments), I've a great deal of respect for their opinion, even if I don't happen to agree with it.

Originally posted by Cork
No, I am saying that if they can agree on a shoddy treaty like the Nice treaty - they should agree more.

FF can not go into coalition with FG
FG can not go into coalition with FF
Labour does not know - what it wants.
IBEC and the unions tend to disagree alot




What about Enda Kenny's ****** remarks?
Is Justin Barrett guilty by association?

People like Raymond Crotty were statesmen. What do you call a 6000 strong Rapid Reaction force? An army? No...................Its a differant animal entirely.

It will be as accountable and as democratic as the EU. For those who don't know - the EU is not democratic or accountable.

Cork are you obsessed with Fine Gael or something? maybe you should join:D
Referring to Enda Kenny's remarks on whatever has nothing to do with Justin Barrett.
Anyway aren't they on opposing sides on the Nice Treaty issue, so whats the association?
I have no time for Enda Kenny anyway, if I wanted to be a model politician, he wouldn't be a good role model to follow.

Of course IBEC and the unions disagree a lot, one represents employee's and the other employers.
But crucially they agree on this and they have done their homework.

We had loyalists up North tageting the SDLP - because they were part of a "Pan Nationalist Front".

Eh??
It's a tad silly now to be intimating that there is a "pan Nice Front" campaigning for a yes vote, if thats what you are trying to say.
The groups making up the no campaign do not agree on everything either.
A lot of them would be pro choice on abortion, whereas thats not Justin Barrets cup of tea.

This Yes Brigade and their lavish campaign have indeed lost the arguement. They have lost the trust of the Irish people.

and where is the evidence for this???
you are again making un substantiated statements.
Is it just the Rapid reaction force you are against??
Thats fair enough...you do realise that we are to be no part of that??
Can you say what else is, in the treaty that you object to?
and please give a reason , other than "it's a shambles" or" this treaty is a mess"
mm

mike65

Cork and Pigman dispite thier bluster are the ones who are loosing the arguments with foolish, arguments regarding matters that are not germain to Nice in the slightest. ie Enda Kenny, Tribunals, and such like.

Tomorrow a poll will be published that'll show the Yes vote ahead, though I'm not sure about the actual %.

Heres a poll from Thursday-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/2316403.stm

When you shout and wave your arms around, the games up.

Mike.

Cork

Our president Mary Mc Aleese had some very interesting views on the same Single European Act. I suggust that you could well inform your self on them.

We would not be having this referendum only for Raymond Crotty taking on the "establishment" and winning his court case - forcing CJH in putting the SEA to referendum.

Maybe Justin Barrett is guilty of association? Maybe certain Irish individuals were right not to shake hands with Gerry Adams? Maybe the DUP are right not to share a studio with Sinn Fein?

You know - guilt by association is pretty serious.

NICE REMOVES OUR VETO ON HARMONIZING TAXES IN THE EUROZONE

NICE REMOVES OUR VETO ON THE RULES FOR EU STRUCTURAL AND COHESION FUNDING:

CAPITAL WILL MOVE EASTWARD IN AN ENLARGED EU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE[ LOW-COST, CHEAP-LABOUR EAST EUROPEAN ECONOMIES, WHILE THEIR MIGRANT LABOUR
WILL MOVE WEST./QUOTE]

IRELAND ALREADY HAS OPEN ACCESS TO THE EAST EUROPEAN MARKETS, as the EU

There is not a single economic reason to vote Yes - The Yes crew have lost this arguement weeks ago.

I'm sure Mary Mcaleese has interesting views on hats aswell, but I don't want to know.
Why are you bringing her into it and not elaborating??
Theres enough said about Justin Barrett already, it has nothing to do with the pro's and cons of this treaty.

NICE REMOVES OUR VETO ON HARMONIZING TAXES IN THE EUROZONE

Are you talking about QMV?
As has been said before , whats to stop any European country lowering their taxes as it is??

NICE REMOVES OUR VETO ON THE RULES FOR EU STRUCTURAL AND COHESION FUNDING:

what are you saying here exactly?? Is it that we should always receive more from Europe than we contribute??
You need have no worries, there, as we in Ireland are good at regionalisation.

CAPITAL WILL MOVE EASTWARD IN AN ENLARGED EU TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE[ LOW-COST, CHEAP-LABOUR EAST EUROPEAN ECONOMIES, WHILE THEIR MIGRANT LABOUR

Looks like you are pulling quotes from some literature there without any evidence or even comment on why that might happen.
That statement implies that businesses in Ireland are going to lie down and go asleep, if Nice is passed and won't at all try to take advantage of 100 million plus potential new customers.

But what you are really saying by putting that up is that you are against enlargement altogether.

IRELAND ALREADY HAS OPEN ACCESS TO THE EAST EUROPEAN MARKETS

You are also implying that you are against enlargement by stating this.

What little credibility I had in your statement that the yes argument has failed has now been blown out of the water.
mm

mike65

Pigman where do you get these quotes?

ah I see...

From Pigman-

NICE REMOVES OUR VETO ON HARMONIZING TAXES IN THE EUROZONE:
Articles 1.11 and 2.1 of the Treaty of Nice remove the veto we have at present on harmonizing company taxes in the eurozone, thereby abolishing the principal incentive we have for keeping foreign capital in Ireland and attracting new foreign investment here. At present Ireland can veto any such EU development, but under these provisions of Nice for so-called'enhanced cooperation,' eight or more EU States can harmonise taxes among themselves, even if the others disagree. British politicians have calledIreland a tax haven,like the Cayman Islands. Germany, with its high tax rates, wants a level playing-field for company taxes in the eurozone and wants Ireland to raise its low, 12.5%, tax rate to remove the incentive for German and other companies to move here. Ireland can still opt out if the other eurozone States go ahead with harmonizing company taxes under 'enhanced cooperation', but it will then be faced with becoming a second-class EU Members outside the core eurozone group. Ratifying Nice thus faces us with the invidious choice of either undermining a fundamental basis of Ireland's economic success - the attractiveness to foreign investors of its low company tax rates - or being relegated to second-classEU membership status outside an inner core of avant-garde EU States.

In other words the veto does remain but I'll try and confuse ppl with the above speculation.

Tax laws are protected by the veto according to the Referendum Commision or are they lying?

Mike.

dahamsta

This stinks of dirty tricks. They wait till now and then pull out this sort of political journalism.... you have to question the timing. For shame Irish Times, I expected better.

On this particular topic, I wouldn't, although I've found that no matter what I read these days there's a bias one way or the other; sometimes even both, with pro-Nice propaganda on one page and anti-Nice on the next, either directly or from someone else by proxy. And for the most part, at least in my view, it really is pure propaganda; transparently so. I go back to work after lunch these days with a splitting headache.

I've yet to hear anything from the YES camp that isnt a threat or a vague FUD scare story.

Indeed. Unfortunately though, the exact same could be said for the NO camp. They're both hysterical, they're both threatening, they're both propagating FUD. It's a wonder they don't drive the entire country insane.

I've leaned heavily towards No until recently, but now I'm finding myself jealous that my ma won't be around to vote, I wish I was going on holidays too. I'm seriously considering not voting because I don't feel qualified to vote, I don't believe I understand the issues well enough to do so, and I don't trust anyone to explain them to me any more. That's really painful to me, because I've been a vicious proponent of democracy since I matured enough to understand what it really means. But what's a guy to do?

As to the topic in hand, well, I see it like this: If Justin Barrett knew what he was doing, then the man is a fascist; if he didn't know what he was doing, then he's either ignorant or a fool (there's a difference). Either way, he doesn't deserve our attention. The fact that he's got it speaks more about modern society than the event itself. And yes, I see the irony. I imagine he does too, which should demonstrate which side of the fence I fall on.

adam

gandalf

Err Mike when you say Pigman I assume you mean Cork as they both use the same Avatar

Gandalf.

mike65

Oops! You're right Gandalf, that said the quote I attribute to pigman (from another thread) is correct, so both
Cork and Pigman are singing off the same hymesheet.

Mike.

Cork

The Treaty of Nice is no treaty of Rome.

I am in favour of the EU. The Nice treaty is the blue print of a Europe not based on equality. The justin Barrett thing is a red herring? Was John Hume wrong to meet with the IRA?

McCarthyism is alive and well.

mike65

According to days papers Barret has also consorted with the Italian right-wingers Forza Nuova a number of times.
Forza were behind the mayhem at the Genoa G8 meeting,
Forzas leader Roberto Fiore was part of the terror cell that killed over 80 in the imfamous Bologna railway station blast in 1980.

This from www.forzanuova.org (the translation is very rough)-

STRONG IRELAND And POWERS

For the ennesima it turns the Ireland is to the taken ones with a referendum.
This time the question regards the Treaty of Nizza, that it represents a step in ahead towards the United States of Europe and involves the loss "of wealth, being able and freedom" from part of the Irishes (as said one synthetically slogan in occasion of the first referendum) to advantage of international the strong powers.
A year it makes, an alliance of tradizionalisti catholics and nationalists (very represents to you from the historical group of Youth Defence), together to frange of the left extreme, had made useless the attempt to make to pass the treaty through a first referendum. This text, beyond to the regarding aspect the increase of the European community, is of fact the premise to an European constitution, where but the aspects of religious and cultural identity are omitted all. The other result is the movement, more and more radical, of the powers outside from the orbit of the national states.
As it was from attending, "protreaty", with in head you leave yourself and industrial fields, have invested million euro in order guaranteeing the result, without but to hold account of the rebellious spirit of the Irishes who, seems they are orients to giving to you for the second one turns a poderoso "Not" like result.
In the within of the lead dirty war from "liberals" against "nationals", the greater exponent of the forehead nationalist Justin Barrett, has been attacked in a press campaign of the type of those to which have been we accustom we to you in the past. FN and NPD represent, in the mind of the accusatory ones, the friends of which Barrett it would have to be vergognare. Costoro but forgets the great tradition about own pride of the Irishes that, little attention to the scandals crafts them and to the impositions from the high, they could vote newly against the Treaty of Nizza, throwing all the process of European unification to the ortiche, with great desperation of the international oligarchies.

Mike.

Cork

Mike 65 - I think u should do about what grouping FF are aligned to in tthe EU.

It is not the issue & niether is Justin Barrett.

If we vote No – We will loose influence?

When – we voted No before – we were told that we would have to vote again and vote Yes.

We have very little to no influence on the EU.

Loosing MEPs and our veto in certain areas will even lessen our influence.

"It is not true that voting NO in the Irish referendum would block EU enlargement. On October 8, the President of Slovenia, Milan Kucan, during an official visit to Malta stated categorically: "The Irish referendum on the Nice Treaty should not and would not prevent enlargement." (The Times of Malta)

This should therefore now make clear to everybody in Ireland that there is no such significance in the Irish referendum.

On the countrary, had they been given a choice, the countries wishing to join the EU would themselves have objected to provisions of the Nice Treaty which make the EU a two-tier organisation, with the big countries forming a Federation, and the other member countries being left out of the inner ruling group.

Like you, the Maltese people are against the setting of an European army that has as a normal objective military operations outside the borders of EU member countries.

This goes against the tradition of neutrality of Ireland, a tradition that is accepted by all political parties and all sections of public opinion as the firm foundation of the Irish State. And no Irish Government would dare to smash this foundation without the consent of the Irish electorate in general elections.

In Malta's case neutrality is very clearly entrenched in the Constitution that by a vast majority proclaimed Malta to be a republic. And no democratic Government can temper with neutrality without an affirmative vote of not less than 2/3 of the Maltese representatives in Parliament.

We and you cannot vote Yes in the impending referendum because there is today a basic radical difference in the EU as conceived by the original Peace-seeking founders and the way it has been altered by the Nice Treaty and by what, alas, seems to be contemplated in the drafts so far published by the Convention for the Future of Europe.

Ireland will be doing Europe a great service if she goes on fighting for a Europe that will again make possible European neutrality as the foundation for Peace and Prosperity of all mankind in the years to come.

Cork

Getting back to Justin Barrett.

Was John Hume wrong to meet with the IRA?

Is he Guilty of association?

Originally posted by Cork
The Treaty of Nice is no treaty of Rome.

I am in favour of the EU. The Nice treaty is the blue print of a Europe not based on equality. The justin Barrett thing is a red herring? Was John Hume wrong to meet with the IRA?

McCarthyism is alive and well.

Are you saying there Cork that you think that justin Barrett meets these people to convert them to Democracy or something??

and could you expand on what McCarthyism has to do with this??
To put a bit of perspective on this, I think the fact that Barrett is associated with these people casts doubt on his ability to put foward the "no" case as a whole.
It doesn't affect the No case, except it muddies their waters.

It attaches him to a set of ideals that could be his view of the way Europe should go.
People like , might think that he wants extremist ideologies to thrive in Europe and that that couldn't happen if Nice is passed.

You haven't answered my previous question by the way ie:
Is it enlargement you are against??
mm

mike65

Cork, I don't see the comparison, Hume was trying to broker a deal with respect of Sinn Fien entering the democratic process more fully.

Barrett is meeting neo-fasicts bodies in at leat two counties to spead his views on abortion, he's not looking to turn these groups into democrats.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.idgr.de/lexikon/bio/b/barrett-justin/barrett.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DForza%2BNuova%2BJustin%2BBarrett%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3Dutf-8

Mike.

Originally posted by Cork
Mike 65 - I think u should do about what grouping FF are aligned to in tthe EU.

It is not the issue & niether is Justin Barrett.

If we vote No – We will loose influence?

When – we voted No before – we were told that we would have to vote again and vote Yes.

We have very little to no influence on the EU.

Loosing MEPs and our veto in certain areas will even lessen our influence.

Small countries cannot lose influence, there will be a lot of them.

"It is not true that voting NO in the Irish referendum would block EU enlargement. On October 8, the President of Slovenia, Milan Kucan, during an official visit to Malta stated categorically: "The Irish referendum on the Nice Treaty should not and would not prevent enlargement." (The Times of Malta)

That is quite correct, but if the Nice Treaty is torn up, another will have to be negotiated. There is no guarantee that Ireland would get as favourable a deal with a new negotiation.

On the countrary, had they been given a choice, the countries wishing to join the EU would themselves have objected to provisions of the Nice Treaty which make the EU a two-tier organisation, with the big countries forming a Federation, and the other member countries being left out of the inner ruling group.

Enhanced co operation if this is what is being referred to there is open to all members.
And anyhow as I said above I fail to see how smaller states would lose influence when there are more of them.

This goes against the tradition of neutrality of Ireland, a tradition that is accepted by all political parties and all sections of public opinion as the firm foundation of the Irish State. And no Irish Government would dare to smash this foundation without the consent of the Irish electorate in general elections.

In Malta's case neutrality is very clearly entrenched in the Constitution that by a vast majority proclaimed Malta to be a republic. And no democratic Government can temper with neutrality without an affirmative vote of not less than 2/3 of the Maltese representatives in Parliament.

Both points are irellevant as this referendum if passed would prevent Ireland involving itself in E.U military alliances, effectively copperfastening neutrality.

You cannot argue that the Nice treaty is giving us a "guilt by association" end to neutrality if the E.U rapid reaction force is set up, because most of the E.U's population already lives in countries alligned to NATO.

Ireland will be doing Europe a great service if she goes on fighting for a Europe that will again make possible European neutrality as the foundation for Peace and Prosperity of all mankind in the years to come.

Essentially that is an argument to tear up the Nice Treaty, and further use all our influences to have NATO disbanded.
I've no problems with anyone wanting to campaign for the latter,but not at the expense of the progress offered by the Nice Treaty.
mm

Cork

Is it enlargement you are against??

No

Amsterdam envisaged a more gradual EU enlargement, with 5 new States joining the EU and then taking part in a grand conference to review the EU institutions (Although Amsterdam does not legally preclude a "Big Bang" enlargement of 10 new Members or more.)

This treaty - we will loose inflence big time. Ireland becoming a leader of small nations is wishful thinking.

bonkey

Cork...

can you explain how enlargement can occur without us losing influence?

I'm only asking cause youre not against enlargement but have a problem with loss of influence.

jc

Cork

The creation of mechanisims aka Nice that can create a two tier Europe would be out.

I would see a community of equal nation co-operating.

I too would see a more accountable EU & EU comission.

I know - ye will all take pot shots at this posting. I would love to have posted something more elaborate but I think respect and equality would be the conerstones.

An unaccounable and 2 tier Europe - would not be on my agenda.