Interesting HU situation in a WSOP qualifier

NickyOD

I was watching the final table of the $250 qualifier for the WSOP on Bodog. There was an overlay so first got a seat, 2nd got nothing.

When it got to HU the stacks were 25K and 19.5K but the chipleader was then disconnected. What did the other guy "LuckyCharms" do? He sat out and waited. When the CL came back he dominated and won.

What would you in Luckycharms shoes?

DapperGent

NickyOD wrote:

I was watching the final table of the $250 qualifier for the WSOP on Bodog. There was an overlay so first got a seat, 2nd got nothing.

When it got to HU the stacks were 25K and 19.5K but the chipleader was then disconnected. What did the other guy "LuckyCharms" do? He sat out and waited. When the CL came back he dominated and won.

What would you in Luckycharms shoes?

Raise every hand. I'm been in that exact situation in many STTs and I've done exactly that.

I haven't felt proud to say the least. Nor have I thought about it from a moral perspective, simply just seeing it as another edge to exploit. It's the kinda mood poker gets me into.

ie A win at all costs mentality. Shamefully enough I've never considered doing anything different. Even more shamefully nor do I now. I'm honestly regarding his poor connection as a weakness in his game. Much like playing A9 to a raise.

Samba

I look at it this way, if I was the one disconnected, most players would not hesitate in raising and raising....

Lafortezza

NickyOD wrote:

the chipleader was then disconnected. What did the other guy "LuckyCharms" do? He sat out and waited. When the CL came back he dominated and won.
What would you in Luckycharms shoes?

Wow, that's pretty good sportsmanship right there, fair play to him for being so decent. I don't know if I'd be that charitable, especially if there was a WSOP ticket on the line.

TimFoil

amazing. lessons for us all there.

Hyzepher

Happened to me before on a tournament - no WSOP ticket but big difference in 1st & 2nd prizes. I waited for him to reconnect - won a few blinds when he had to fold his SB. When he came back I duely LOST - wouldn't do it again

Hyzepher

AmarilloFats

I once watched The Salmon Play HU on ladbrokes...He plays the highest stakes...when the other guy was disconned he just sat out.
I hope I would sit out, even for a WSOP ticket..
What about a guy having a heart attack in a live game...Would ye consider that a "weakness in his game". Perhaps a kick in the head!!?

henbane

If he has a heart attack, he has to forfeit. Raise the shít outta that.

NickyOD

I'm pretty appauled to hear that people here would definitely call down his blinds while he was disonnected.

When I played a small event in AC a few years back I managed to get to a final table when the deck hit me in the face in the middle stages but whatever the hell I ate that morning made me very ill. We got down to 6 from a starting 170 or so and I was second in chips at the time. I HAD to leave the table, I was very sick but I knew if I just went and hurled up whatever was making me sick, had a drink of water I'd be ok. I stood up and said I was sorry but I had to blind off because I wasn't well (I think I was the colour of the felt at this point). 1 player suggested taking a 15 minute break. The tournament director said no and another player suggested that if the dealers wanted a nice tip from the prizepool they should wait. Everyone else agreed immediately. I went and threw up, a nice hostess brought me by the4 arm to to the bathroom I had a drink of water, came back, felt a little better and just a couple of hands later I busted the shorty and another player in the same hand when my Tens flopped a set. I was then a good chip leader but immedaitely offered to split 4 ways even though I was holding almost half the chips at the table.

If you consider winning the money by default more imnportant than winning it by playing the best poker then you should seriously rethink why you actually play this game. I certainly could never live with the guilt of winning an online tourney this way and I'd consider the ticket I won to be cursed. I play a bit of HU online and it happens al lot that a player might be sitting out because of the time you have to wait between matches. It might not be his fault. I mean who hasn't bean ****ed in the ass by their SP in the middle of an important game. Everyone has. Jesus I lost $450 in one hand in March because of a power cut. I have always waited 5 minutes minimum before calling down blinds and even then I will take the full 15 seconds every hand. I think I only ever didn't wait once but that was in the WCP qualifier which is a freeroll.

For the record the player LuckyCharms has been at my table a few times in Bodog tournies he is a VERY solid player, and has had some serious cashes, so nice guys DO NOT finish second. errr well in this case he did, but you get my point.

okidoki987

I agree with NickyOD. It happens to everybody at some stage and if you don't allow the other bloke (or female :eek: ) the chance, then you couldn't and shouldn't expect some else to do it for you.
No that I'd ever get down to that stage but down to 2 in SnG's, I've often had to go to toilet, answer door, kid awake etc and I've said in chat "I'm off for a minute" and I've never had anybody try to rob me blinds. They've all just hit the time button.

What goes around and all that....

AmarilloFats

Well said NickyOD

DapperGent

Actually the more I think about it the less guilty I feel. Fúck him, and fúck his crappy connection.

It's not like poker is a game of honour. If it was we wouldn't be scouring the net looking for as many shít players as possible packed into the same table. Preferrably compulsive gamblers all.

Everyone is seeking out players who are terrible at poker in order to extract money from them, buddying the really bad ones so they can find them and jump in on their left. I don't understand what the ethical difference is between that and raising someone whose connection is down.

karlh

coz even if the players are crap, at least they are playing crap on a level playing field!?

i'm with the good guys on this one. there is an ethical and honorable way to play any game and i don't see this as any exception just because there is more immediate money at stake.

what about stealing chips? looking at your opponents cards? raising out of turn?

take any sport you like and you could find a similar example.............well maybe not dwarf tossing but you get the idea....

NickyOD

DapperGent wrote:

Everyone is seeking out players who are terrible at poker in order to extract money from them, buddying the really bad ones so they can find them and jump in on their left. I don't understand what the ethical difference is between that and raising someone whose connection is down.

The difference is obvious.

Beign a bad poker player is one's own fault. Losing your connection is not.

I'd put this on an ethical par with spotting someone dropping their wallet, saying nothing and taking their money.

Happy Camper

So what you're saying is it isn't okay to take someone's wallet if they dropped it, unless it was a crappy wallet with only a couple of quid in it (I'm referring to your freeroll antics, by the way)?

NickyOD

Happy Camper wrote:

So what you're saying is it isn't okay to take someone's wallet if they dropped it, unless it was a crappy wallet with only a couple of quid in it (I'm referring to your freeroll antics, by the way)?

So you don't see the moral difference between taking a wallet full of money and an empty wallet, nor the moral difference between calling down a disconnected players blinds in a $5 SnG and WSOP sat woth $12K?

And why would I steal an empty wallet?

podgeen

karlh wrote:

looking at your opponents cards?

If you were in a live game and the person next to you is making no attempt to hide their cards, i.e. you have to go out of your way to not see his cards.
Would you tell him you can see his cards?

If you told him and he did not change. Would you tell him again or just look away so you couldn't see what he had?

henbane

The structure of tournament play means the longer a game goes on, the more of a disadvantage the blinds are to a shorter stack. If the blinds are currently comfortable for the shorter stack and the disconnected chip leader has enough of a big stack, the rising blinds will put more pressure on the smaller stack by the time the other player reconnects.

Should the big stack be given an extra advantage because their connection has failed?

henbane

NickyOD wrote:

So you don't see the moral difference between taking a wallet full of money and an empty wallet, nor the moral difference between calling down a disconnected players blinds in a $5 SnG and WSOP sat woth $12K?

There's no moral difference, there is a monetary difference. If you're going to plead moral authority, the least you should understand is morals.

Happy Camper

NickyOD wrote:

So you don't see the moral difference between taking a wallet full of money and an empty wallet, nor the moral difference between calling down a disconnected players blinds in a $5 SnG and WSOP sat woth $12K?

And why would I steal an empty wallet?

I didn't say the wallet was empty. Just that you should get off your moral high horse or start playing your Freerolls like Jesus would

NickyOD

henbane wrote:

There's no moral difference, there is a monetary difference. If you're going to plead moral authority, the least you should understand is morals.

lol. you're ****ing having me on right? You think there is no moral difference between taking a penny sweet and robbing a bank just because its both stealing? The monetary difference absolutely creates a moral difference.

henbane

NickyOD wrote:

lol. you're ****ing having me on right? You think there is no moral difference between taking a penny sweet and robbing a bank just because its both stealing? The monetary difference absolutely creates a moral difference.

lol indeed

NickyOD

henbane wrote:

The structure of tournament play means the longer a game goes on, the more of a disadvantage the blinds are to a shorter stack. If the blinds are currently comfortable for the shorter stack and the disconnected chip leader has enough of a big stack, the rising blinds will put more pressure on the smaller stack by the time the other player reconnects.

Should the big stack be given an extra advantage because their connection has failed?

Like I said I'd wait, but I wouldn't wait forever. If the blinds went up I'd call off a few.

Hyzepher

In my example - while I was waiting I got slagged by onlookers for not raising the blinds. In fact when I lost I got a host of people telling me I was a fool. In fact I felt a fool.

Hyzepher

biteme

NickyOD wrote:

So you don't see the moral difference between taking a wallet full of money and an empty wallet, nor the moral difference between calling down a disconnected players blinds in a $5 SnG and WSOP sat woth $12K?

And why would I steal an empty wallet?

Maybe it was a really nice wallet.


But on a more serious note I don't see how you can have double standards on an issue like this. You either think it's morally wrong and stealing or you don't. I think I'd just take his blinds until he got back online. On sites like stars you can't rob them straight away. It takes ages for the timer to time out each hand. Thus giving the other guy plenty of time to get back online.

karlh

podgeen wrote:

If you were in a live game and the person next to you is making no attempt to hide their cards, i.e. you have to go out of your way to not see his cards.
Would you tell him you can see his cards?

of course i would. would you not!? :eek: officially you should muck your hand if you see someone elses cards. personally i wouldnt since i didnt intentionally look but i would certainly tell (and have told) the person and maybe say it to the tourney director if it's happening repeatedly.

podgeen wrote:

If you told him and he did not change. Would you tell him again or just look away so you couldn't see what he had?

i'd tell him again and then the tourney director.

biteme

karlh wrote:

officially you should muck your hand if you see someone elses cards.

eh?!

I just inform the person that I don't wish to see their cards. I'll do it a couple of times for repeat offenders but after that if I see them I see them. I'm not going to run to the tourny director to sort it out though. It's up to you to protect your own cards. If you don't then the other players should be allowed to take advantage of the fact.

NickyOD

biteme wrote:

You either think it's morally wrong and stealing or you don't.

I don't. but I don't think winning a $5 SnG this way even compares to winning a WSOP ticket. It's ridiculous to compare the two. One is like calling your neighbour an asshole, the other is like killing his dog.

biteme

NickyOD wrote:

I don't. but I don't think winning a $5 SnG this way even compares to winning a WSOP ticket. It's ridiculous to compare the two. One is like calling your neighbour an asshole, the other is like killing his dog.

#

As was said earlier in the thread the morals of the issue have nothing to do with the monietary value of the prize. You either think it's wrong to steal someones blinds who has disconnected or you don't. The monietary value shouldn't come into the moral issue

AmarilloFats

biteme wrote:

#

As was said earlier in the thread the morals of the issue have nothing to do with the monietary value of the prize. You either think it's wrong to steal someones blinds who has disconnected or you don't. The monietary value shouldn't come into the moral issue

MMmmmmmmmmm Perrhaps there's a curve...Lets call it "THE EXPONENTIAL CURVE OF MORAL PERVERSION"..

Iago

There's no honour amongst thieves..

Read an interesting article once, can't remember where it was, where a player wrote that "sitting out/disconnecting" is a viable tournament strategy. His take on it was that if he had amassed enough chips at a point in the tournament then he would often then sit out and let other players get whittled down before playing again. Never understood it myself, but it takes all sorts..

If I was headsup and in this situation then I would raise on every hand, I'd expect my opponent to do the same to me. Poker is a dog eat dog game gentlemen, I can be as nice as the next guy but if you're in my way you've got to go. If I could see your cards I'd warn you the first time, and the second time, if you're too dumb to fix the problem after that and I happen to see your cards then that's your problem.

Would I feel guilty? Not really, I accept that the same thing would happen to me and therefore I can live with it. The only exception would be if it was someone I knew well and they had shown themselves to be of the kind of character who wouldn't do something similar, then I'd just let it time out each time for the first few minutes to see if they could get back on...

Marq

Nicky, at what point does it become immoral? is it heads up in a ten dollar STT, or a thousand dollar STT, or is it only when there's a WSOP at stake? what about qualifiers for other tournaments with lower buy ins?

can explain to me why it's not right in a WSOP qualifier but is right in a five dollar sit and go?

You can't arbitrarily decide at what level taking advantage of someone being disconnected is wrong.

Either you believe that the practice is wrong, or you don't. It doesn't matter how much you are playing for. There is no monetary consideration that affects the "morality" of this situation.

Happy Camper

NickyOD wrote:

I don't. but I don't think winning a $5 SnG this way even compares to winning a WSOP ticket. It's ridiculous to compare the two. One is like calling your neighbour an asshole, the other is like killing his dog.

"If you consider winning the money by default more imnportant than winning it by playing the best poker then you should seriously rethink why you actually play this game."

Your above statement clearly shows where exactly you want to stand on the issue, whether you're in a Freeroll or playing for a WSOP ticket.

"I think I only ever didn't wait once but that was in the WCP qualifier which is a freeroll."

Whereas this one shows that you're a bit of a hypocrite.

mewso

Personally I have in the past ticked check/fold which is more or less the same thing as sitting out. I don't have a problem with folks who would take advantage of the situation it's just the way I have played and will play. I'm perhaps a tad supersticious too in that what goes around comes around so I want to win with a clear conscience.

NickyOD

Marq wrote:

Either you believe that the practice is wrong, or you don't..

I do

Marq wrote:

It doesn't matter how much you are playing for...

Yes it does.

Marq wrote:

There is no monetary consideration that affects the "morality" of this situation.

If you don't recognice the significant moral extremes between the two then there's no way I break it into smaller more digestible parts for you to understand the significance of winning a WSOP ticket by default and winning $5.

$5 means **** all to anyone. A WSOP ticket is a ****ing dream for some people.

NickyOD

Happy Camper wrote:

"If you consider winning the money by default more imnportant than winning it by playing the best poker then you should seriously rethink why you actually play this game."

Your above statement clearly shows where exactly you want to stand on the issue, whether you're in a Freeroll or playing for a WSOP ticket.

"I think I only ever didn't wait once but that was in the WCP qualifier which is a freeroll."

Whereas this one shows that you're a bit of a hypocrite.

ROFL. So if I take a stapler home from work but criticise people who steal from the payroll that makes me a hipocrite?

You're comparing a freerooll to a WSOP qualifier. Get a life mate.

Doc Farrell

NickyOD wrote:

I was watching the final table of the $250 qualifier for the WSOP on Bodog. There was an overlay so first got a seat, 2nd got nothing.

When it got to HU the stacks were 25K and 19.5K but the chipleader was then disconnected. What did the other guy "LuckyCharms" do? He sat out and waited. When the CL came back he dominated and won.

What would you in Luckycharms shoes?

You should post this in a few U.S. sites. That guy should get a free ticket from the internet site. Great advertising for everyone all round. What a player.

I gotta be honest and say that if I was in shoes I don't know what I would have done but my little mousey would definitely be hovering over the raise button. If I could win a ticket for the big one with just one little tap on the pad.... then baby I gotta drop the hammer! Oh god, I'm such a nasty piece of work!

But I definitely think that the site would really profit from giving this guy a ticket. It'll even help them fight collusion and bad excuses from players in big showdowns (morally more than practically, admitedlly).

Doc Farrell

AmarilloFats wrote:

MMmmmmmmmmm Perrhaps there's a curve...Lets call it "THE EXPONENTIAL CURVE OF MORAL PERVERSION"..

I love that and ask your permission to flog it to death. That will be my excuse or everything from now, courtesy of Amarillo fats.

Everytime I do something a little evil I'll just say to myself, 'baby, it's time to surf that expontential curve of moral perversion'. Yeah! i love it!

Hitman Actual

I have to agree with Marq and co on this... the amount of money at stake shouldn't matter; it's whether you think it's wrong or not that counts. At least Dappergent is clearly on one side of the fence, but talk about being ruthless!

Samba

Bottom line is, in roughly 10 times I have been disconnected I would say about 1 person has waited, all other 9 times I have lost my chips.


Play the odds

AmarilloFats

Doc Farrell wrote:

I love that and ask your permission to flog it to death. That will be my excuse or everything from now, courtesy of Amarillo fats.

Everytime I do something a little evil I'll just say to myself, 'baby, it's time to surf that expontential curve of moral perversion'. Yeah! i love it!

Cheers Doc..Fan base of one.
There was a story about Eric Seidel, he could see an old ladies cards(or her titties cant remember)...He made her aware of this fact and even suggested a different method for checking her hole cards...Then he check raised that sonuvabiatch umpteen times in a row..and encouraged her to rebuy...
By all means be a ruthless poker player...
But if you put so much energy and enthusiasm into an endeavour for your whole life..To study and practice to gain those small edges...But now those wholesome edges potodds, hand reading, table image are dwarfed by collusion or a dodgy internet connection...
The exponential curve of moral perversion...is a slippy slope indeed...

Corben Dallas

I'm pretty much with Iago and Samba on this one. Its a hard world out there, even harder in 'pokerworld' TM

But it depends if its a freeroll/$5 tournie then i'm hitting the raise button, if it was a final table deal in a big WSOP or big money tournie 5K/10K then i'd wait.....5mins then its back to raise raise ]:)

The time out in a tournie either at the start or when they are massive chip leader (by choice) is something u see a lot online, friend does it fair amount at teh start as by the time he comes back the nutters/maniacs are either dead (or massive chip leaders )

Few things are black and white, there is a lot of greys, off white, faded black/charcoal in life.

DeVore

<flanders> thats a dilly of a pickle! </flanders>

Stealing anything is wrong. Stealing a fiver is not as bad as robbing a bank. But its still a *little* bit wrong.

We'd all like to do the right thing. I wouldnt rob the blinds in a 5 euro game. I'd like to think my self respect costs a little more then that. I dont know if it would withstand a WSOP ticket. I'd like to think it would but I've never been in that situation and I'm only human.

So, interesting mental game..... how much at stake would flip you from "moral indignation" to "Its a dog eat dog world".... cos thats how much your self respect costs

DeV.

Iago

DeVore wrote:

So, interesting mental game..... how much at stake would flip you from "moral indignation" to "Its a dog eat dog world".... cos thats how much your self respect costs

DeV.

.10c

Happy Camper

NickyOD wrote:

ROFL. So if I take a stapler home from work but criticise people who steal from the payroll that makes me a hipocrite?

You're comparing a freerooll to a WSOP qualifier. Get a life mate.

I didn't make any comparisons. I'm simply extrapolating conclusions from what you said, i.e.

biteme said:

"You either think it's morally wrong and stealing or you don't."

You replied:

"I don't."

But, in a previous post you said:

"If you consider winning the money by default more imnportant than winning it by playing the best poker then you should seriously rethink why you actually play this game."

But then you admitted:

"I think I only ever didn't wait once but that was in the WCP qualifier which is a freeroll."

So, what exactly are you feelings regarding this issue? It seems that through your careless ranting, you have confused us all...

NickyOD

Happy Camper wrote:

So, what exactly are you feelings regarding this issue? It seems that through your careless ranting, you have confused us all...

So confused it took you 6 days to reply. There's nothing more I can say that isn't alread in this thread.

The Snapper

Playing a tourney at the merrion, a guy at the table who is fairly pissed and not paying much attention misses his turn post flop. I bet he chats on and everyone else folds, Dealer starts to move chips my way and I muck my cards. Arthur guinness' best customer then wakes up as the only player with "live" cards and takes the pot after a ruling. Ettiquette ? Ruling ?.

PS. My first post be gentle

Lafortezza

The Snapper wrote:

Playing a tourney at the merrion, a guy at the table who is fairly pissed and not paying much attention misses his turn post flop. I bet he chats on and everyone else folds, Dealer starts to move chips my way and I muck my cards. Arthur guinness' best customer then wakes up as the only player with "live" cards and takes the pot after a ruling. Ettiquette ? Ruling ?.

PS. My first post be gentle

Kinda harsh way for the ruling to go but you should never muck your cards until the pot has been awarded to you.

NickyOD

The Snapper wrote:

Dealer starts to move chips my way and I muck my cards.

I could see myself doing the same thing. I don't always stop and think before mucking my cards. I'd be too busy focussing on other things and I mean if the dealer was already pushing the pot towards you I'd consider the other players cards dead since he didn't act in time.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Nicky - your sig has got a bit mixed up - it has dropped the 'h' part of 'http', so it isn't working at the mo...

NickyOD

Thanks. I seriously need to start updating that blog.