Alternative Heating - Grants

yop

Lads
I hope you could point me in the right direction.
We are doing a new build, timber frame with rockwool for good heat insulation and to keep the heating costs down.

Now we are also going either Geothermal or Air 2 Air for our heating source. Also we are possibly going to install a unit from www.windsave.com to use the wind energy around us and give us electricity to power the house(pushed by UK Energy Minister Brian Wilson MP)

Not sure about the solar panels to be honest, not sure if they are very efficient.

Now obviously this is going to cost us, probably about 10k for Geo, 1.5 for Geo and 3-5k for the solar panels, we do not get grants for this in Ireland, in the UK they get 1200 pounds sterling for installing the Geothermal solution. They also get 300 pounds sterling for installing the Windsave unit and also sell the "ROCS" that they produce to the governement so that the government can use these "green" units in to put towards
their EU requirement.
There are also grants for Solar Power.

I have contact my local TD, leader of the Fine Gael party (as he is from my constituency) and sent emails to the Dept for Environement, I was passed on, shock horror with the following email.

Dear Mr. X,

I have been asked by Mr. Dick Roche, T.D., Minister for the
Environment, Heritage and Local Government to refer to your recent email
in connection with grants for Alternative Heat Sources.

As this matter is more appropriate to the Department of Communications,
Marine and Natural Resources, your letter has been forwarded to Mr. Noel
Dempsey T.D., for his attention and direct reply to you.

I have not heard back.

Now since ye lads are in the know with Environemtal issues, I am interested on 2 fronts, first is to inform people of the alternative out there, they are crying about rising energy costs, the Kayoto agreement etc
The 2nd reason is also the cost we have to pay to get this equipment installed, if there were grants it would encourage people to install these.

So any help or advise I would appreciate it.

Cheers

Doper Than U

http://www.irish-energy.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=443&language_id=1


There seems to be some sort of grant available, but I'm not sure who is eligible. I'd love to know myself, because as you know Yop, I'll be building along the same lines as you. I'm going for as green and self-sufficient as possible.

http://www.sustainable.ie/index.htm


(Many thanks for the email.. I need to get Excel before I can view it, lol, but I'm working on that)

yop

No bother lad, I got an email back from the minister to tell of the same site, but they do not grant for one off developments! what a load of cr*p, if you are rich enough to build a min of 20 houses, then we will grant you another 5k euro to help you keep it green, but if you are poor sod buidling their own house, go away! typical Ireland

Doper Than U

What a load of cac. My god, how dumb is this government? I do remember seeing somewhere that one of the environmental charities gave out grants... but I can't for the life of me remember which one! I'll keep looking around and see if I can find it.

(Oh, and I'm a girl... unless you call everyone lad regardless of sex )

Khannie

Doper: If you do find out, I'd be interested too. I was considering getting a solar water heating system installed. The mrs. is a go with it too and a grant might make the difference between action and inaction.

yop

"Oh, and I'm a girl... unless you call everyone lad regardless of sex "

Sorry I knew that alright!. I do have a habit to generalise, apologise for any offense!!!!

Doper Than U

LOL! No, no offence at all.. (God, where would I be if I took offence to that?), it's just that some people don't realise that my name is a girls name (I have been put in the boys section for various things, and then once they actually see me they get very embarrassed). I don't mind the "lad" thing one bit, and feel free to call me that, I was just clarifying in case you didn't know.

Khannie, Yop, .. I'll keep looking for it, I know I saw it somewhere but I just can't remember where. Incidentally, I think it's time we petitioned the government for this, or generally kicked up a fuss somehow, it's so bloody stupid.

Khannie

Totally off topic:

Doper Than U wrote:

I need to get Excel before I can view it, lol, but I'm working on that)

Check out www.openoffice.org

It's a free office replacement. Includes tools for opening / editing word and excel documents. FREE!

yop

"Check out www.openoffice.org"

Good spot, free and all!!

I came across the following Conservation Volunteers Ireland - info@cvi.ie and they were very helpful, unfortunately this was the reponse!

Dear X,

Individuals are eligible when the project is of benefit to the wider
community. From the sounds of what you describe, a project installing
alternative heat and power in a private dwelling would not be eligible for
the Vodafone and CVI Nature Fund.

I would be glad to send you out an application form if you email in your
postal address. The closing date for the next round is the end of June. If
you have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Best,
Su Clarke

Executive Director

yop

Reply I got from Noel Dempsey TD, summarised but the main body was:

This programme is open to demonstration projects involved in clusters of five or more homes. Funding is available for whole house measures at a rate up to €5000 per house in this developement.
Funding is not available under this programme for homes on an individual basis and direct funding support is not available at individual house holder level.

I trust this clarifies the position.

Yours Sincerely
Noel Dempsey TD.

Obviously I am badly pi*sed at this the fact that a builder can get a 5k grant while us poor sods get lumped with naught! fkers!
My email response: I have the email addy if anyone wants to add weight to this and see if we can get something moving on this, if they gave no grant at all fair enough but since they give it to the builders and us poor twats have to live with the cost really irkes me!
Louisa - She is the girl that forwarded me his reponse!

Louisa
Many thanks for getting back to me on that. It is a real shame that us individuals cannot be rewarded for our efforts in the use of Eco aware solutions while the rich builder gets subsidised.
It is also strange that while Ireland is not adhering to the requirements of the Kayoto Protocol, no encouragement is given to individuals to install these solutions while our EU neighbours and those in the US give generous grants to individuals who inform themselves of the alternatives and install same.

In fairness it does not surprise me that Ireland continues to make the rich richer in it’s handing out of grants to builders while ignoring the rest of us.
I am a prominent member of a number of DIY and Self-Build forums in Ireland and I am sure that when I highlight this issue to the other participants it will anger them and will not encourage us to give our support to the current government.
Can you ensure that Mr Dempsey is aware of my comments and dissatisfaction with this current situation.

Best Regard,
Mr X

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

I can assure you that you are pi##ing against the wind if you expect Minister Dempsey to do anything that makes sense.

Yes Minister it's me again and I still say you do not listen to the people, hopefully a capable person will be found to take your place.

Yop feel free to forward the link to this post to noelmin@eircom.net I never write anything I will not sign or back up.

yop

Cheers Pete,
I think your right but hey you never know!!¬

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

Going on the news today that our Minister for Justice changed his mind about deportation of a Leaving Cert student, Hope springs eternal

I think the problem here is there are not enough people applying pressure on the relevant departments, when I see the grant systems available in the UK where they don't appear as environmentally aware as the young educated Irish it is very annoying.

We have children who know the difference because they are taught from infants class how important their / our environment is, that is a credit to the teachers who have the gift of explaining the importance to the children.

So we can talk the talk but when we will we start walking the walk ?

Perhaps the horrific accident in the Texas refinery will strenghten awareness on a world wide scale about how oil dependent we really are.

Ozzie

Hello all...

Does anyone know anything about ThermoAir heating? We might be building soon and are curious if anyone has it and is it any good...

yop

Have a look at the DIY section here lad, Aerothermal, Air Source heat pumps, google these, same type, just different names

Nordic

e-mail us quoting this forum and we will not only give you €500 off the price of a heat pump, we will also give you €500 commission for EVERY heat pump sold through a referral by you. You don't have to own a heat pump to get this commission, just tell your referrals to mention you when contacting us, or call or e-mail us your referral's details. If any become sales ... you get €500 transferred into your account as soon as their funds are cleared. No strings. We have people who have done this and actually made €2000 in a month, by 4 referrals buying. if a customer buys more than one - you get more than one commission. How fair is that?
e-mail us at info@nordic-geothermal.com
web-site: www.nordic-geothermal.com
Cheers
Niall MacCann

rooferPete

Hi Niall,

With all due respect I think you are making a very big mistake expecting what are now educated Irish People to ignore the fact that you have at least €500.00 built in to your price to play with.

I have not been posting on this site for long but I can assure you in a short time you will discover just how small this country is.

I know nothing more about your product other than you are padding the prices, as an investor in the alternative energy business I think you are an absolute disgrace.

"€500 transferred into your account as soon as their funds are cleared. No strings"

The strings are there for all to see, if you want to employ sales staff on a commission basis please be honest and state that to be the case, do not expect the people who visit here to abuse acquaintances let alone friends.

I believe you lost an excellent chance to explain how your product works and the benefits available to the purchaser and the environment.

You get one chance to make a first impression, in my book you blew it.

Nordic

Peter
It's obvious you can't be helped. We don't need to TRY to sell our product. We distribute to all of Western Europe. I was offering you some discount. Whether you want it or not is up to you - obviously you don't. Okay so don't buy one. We don't ask you to sell your loyalty to friends etc. Most of those who have got commissions from us, have done so as a complete surprise to them. They didn't do a hard sell to their friends. Their friends invariably were asking them about their own system or even the system they were only considering, and when their friends come to us, they do so mostly on their own but mention the source of their contact to us. We don't have to volantarily contact that original contact and give the commission, we just do. Take it or leave it, it's our policy and it always will. Other companies tell you to ask for referrals. That's a cop-out. What company is going to give the contact details of an unhappy customer? We don't give referrals - it's the first sign of being desperate to sell a product. This is simple Peter. You could actually read this and be chatting to a mate down the pub or someone at work maybe even conveying your disapproval at reading this and your mate may contact us and buy our product. You're going to look pretty stupid when it's posted up here saying Peter, e-mail me your bank details so I can give you money ... and thanks for complaining about me!

It's funny how the people who complain about one thing somehow seem to come up with a complaint about most things - even when they are offered something without asking for it. With all the complaining about the Government that is listed above on these threads, and I can speak with authority on this since I deal with all of the countries of Western Europe, nobody has cared to notice that while it is unfair to have such a heavy tax burden on Irish consumers (no grants, no low VAT rates of VAT exemptions) that Ireland's economy is in a far better state than most and so the money is there in the Irish economy. Yes I know you can claim all of your VAT back on new build houses in the UK, yes I know there's a low 5% VAT rate for heat pumps there too (although it is really a paper trail for the administrators to keep them employed). In Greece they get a 50% subsidy if they use sea water as their heaat source. We pay 21% VAT end of story.
We have to pay 21% VAT on import of all our product coming into Ireland since it comes from outside the EU.

Our prices are fixed in all of our countries. The only difference is the relevant VAT rate.

Put simply, I only posted here to help your guys out a little if you want it. If there are more complaints like this I leave you to it, I don't need the hassle.

You're probably a very nice bloke Peter, and probably have all the right intentions but in this case, you've read it wrong mate.

Regards
Niall

Nordic

Okay - The most important piece of information about heat pumps.
If you are looking at heat pumps here are some pointers (they apply to all manufacturers):
A heat pump's output varies with the source temperature. If someone quotes a kW rating make sure they also quote the source temperature that that rating is at i.e. 22kw @ 12°C source or 14kW @ 10°C source.

Taking this into account Air-sourced (can be down to -8°C outside) and ground loop sourced (while ground may be 6°C the actual water/glycol mix or brine mix will be below freezing at times) heat pumps are the least efficient. Well water is about 12°C in Ireland. This gives 65% higher output than a groundloop with the same heat pump.

A ground loop should be 6ft deep and the pipes should be kept 4ft apart.
A heat pump does exactly what it says on the tin... it's a heat pump. It doesn't create heat it pumps it. If you don't have the heat you can't pump it.

For example our EMWec-68-HW unit with a well source @ 12°C and output toan underfloor system will have a COP of 7.01 in these conditions (701% efficiency).

Ask any questions you want. I'll give you the straight answers.

rooferPete

Hmmmmmmmmm

Explanations Please :

"Peter
It's obvious you can't be helped." ?????????????

What Help did I ask You For ?

"We don't need to TRY to sell our product."

Why advertise or build a web site ? why offer Cash incentives for leads ?

" Other companies tell you to ask for referrals. That's a cop-out. What company is going to give the contact details of an unhappy customer?"

I will because it proves my guarantee is more than words written or verbally conveyed.

"You're going to look pretty stupid when it's posted up here saying Peter, e-mail me your bank details so I can give you money ... and thanks for complaining about me! "

All Cheques or cash welcome, to get paid for a few minutes banging a keyboard is not as foolish as hanging off roofs for a living, I can live with the embarrassment.

"With all the complaining about the Government that is listed above on these threads, and I can speak with authority on this since I deal with all of the countries of Western Europe, nobody has cared to notice that while it is unfair to have such a heavy tax burden on Irish consumers (no grants, no low VAT rates of VAT exemptions) that Ireland's economy is in a far better state than most and so the money is there in the Irish economy."

All things are relative, I too do business in Europe and the USA however the first time buyers or self build customers are not paying anything like our consumers.

"We have to pay 21% VAT on import of all our product coming into Ireland since it comes from outside the EU."

We all pay 21% the true difference between you and I as suppliers buying inside or outside the E.U. is nothing more or less than a Cash Flow issue.

" Okay so don't buy one."

Great attitude, I'm building a new house for myself on a two acre site with a well, so your product gets two bites at the cherry except with this buyer because you have padded the prices.

Thank You for the technical data, I am sure there are many who read this thread will gain more actual fact than "Snake Oil Salesman tactics"

You appear to have missed the point where I am investing in alternative energy, not for my personal use but as a supplier (not heat pumps) I prefer to offer value for money instead of having hidden agendas.

xonencentral

Hi,

Need to comment on the windsave turbine as listed in the start of the thread, just so people know, windsave is a "grid-tie" product, i.e. you plug into your 3 pin socket and it suppliments your electricity input. It does not "reverse your meter" when you are using no power as in the US as meters in Ireland & UK are reverse locked. If you boil the kettle at 1,500 watts the wind save "at full power" will contribute up to 400w of that requirement only, When you are using no power, it contributes nothing and when you have a power cut, you are in the dark like everyone else as a "grid-tie" system triggers from the supply network.(power cut - candle power like everyone else), in fact windsave produces no saving unless you are using power so it actually encourages you to turn on items.

What you need in Ireland is an off-grid system with back-up which makes you independent of the grid and which can be grid-tied in the future when the law allows it in Ireland. You can run your TV's, lights, central heating ,etc from it and it would be FREE, FREE, FREE.

My friend has installed 2 new type off-grid DIY turbines at his house this year from a new Irish manufacturer and he won't shut up about them. www.surfacepower.com
He says they cost him €1,400 plus VAT each and are 2005 space age technology, they looked the bizz when I seen them and you can thank him for the education lesson as he already nearly purchased the windsave system. He reckons he is producing over €200 of electricity every ESB bill, and his last ESB bill was only €41 euros which I witnessed with my own eyes, so I think he's onto something.

When I get my own installed, I add another post, there's a waiting list for the product at the moment.

P.S. He also says not to bolt a wind turbine to the gable of your house as it will produce harmonics and drive your around the twist at night simlilar to drip,,,,, drip,,,,drip,,,,, type tap insanity.

Lets save the planet and give those ESB guys and their bills the 2 fingers.

Nordic

Stay on here and winge on if you like, but I'm not going to get into a slagging match, I have better things to do but...An Irish roofer complaining about price!! That's a bit rich! I have yet to find an inexpensive roofer in Ireland.
So, Tech. info only as of now. Any more complaints, or snipes and I'm out of here.

VAT:
Yes, it is only a Cash flow issue with us, but it is the End User I was referring to. The Irish Customer pays 55% more than the New Build Customer for the same heat pump because of 21% VAT and no Grant. But still more are bought in Ireland than the UK. The money is here, so the Government has no incentive. No point in us complaining about it. Trust me I have argued with them, to the point of telling them we'd sell to all our Irish Customers through our UK company and the Customer would only pay VAT to the UK Government, and they'd get nothing. No joy.

Referrals:
We have actually turned down two customers who pushed us to find out a Customers name to contact, didn't get any and by accident discovered one through a neighbour of theirs. They came to us on a Monday morning together to buy two heat pumps having cold-called the existing customer with a bottle of wine under their arm on a Sunday afternoon. The existing customer thought we had given their details and called us Monday morning annoyed. Not giving out details or giving referrals is the only control input we can have in preventing this happening, and we would rather loose a sale than do so. One happy customer who's details are kept private is worth far more to us and an annoyed one and two more sales. If that's too much for some to take in, then so be it.

What to look out for:
The majority of companies selling heat pumps in Ireland are under-floor companies, or closely allied to under-floor companies. That's no co-incidence. They were underfloor people long before they ever heard of a heat pump. The market for under-floor was very small (new build or major restoration only, more expensive, not to everyones taste, etc) but heat pumps effectively doubled the market and turnover of those companies. By plugging a heat pump onto their under-floor they could sell a ground loop in the garden. They are not interested in the environment or efficiency. If they were they wouldn't be pushing for groundloops, and if they were they'd install a ground loop 6ft deep and 4 ft apart x 500ft per ton of compressor rating. They simply don't. This is so prevalent here that heat pumps have gained a small bit of a reputation, in Ireland only, of not being able to cope on colder nights. Ask them to use your well and see how keen they are to do it. They'll give you every excuse they can find to use a groundloop. Ask yourself why.

Where a groundloop is badly installed (shallow and close) your output varies with the source temperature, and is lowest just as your heat-loss is highest. A well gives you a higher and stable output from the same heat pump.

In reality, a heat pump plugged onto a well source gives you far better economy, longer life, faster heat up times, and takes only 1 hour to install, instead of digging up your garden. If I was interested in making a quick buck as you imply - I'd sell groundloop.

We don't sell underfloor, we don't sell radiators, we don't sell groundloops. We tell you where the efficiencies lie, how to get the best efficiency from a system (we don't try to sell you 3000ft of pipework). We demonstrate fully to your how a heat pump works. We don't even make money out of labour on your installation. We train you own plumber and the Customer if they want, free of charge, on how to install. This training take only 2 hours, when colecting your heat pump. Ask your oil boiler Distributor to do that. There is very little to get right to make a heat pump work to it's best efficieny. Most plumbers won't have been trained on heat pumps during their training and that's why we offer this training. The longer they don't know about heat pumps or how to get that efficiency the longer people and plumbers will be cautious in Ireland.

Installation:
Well water heat pump (same heat pump as a groundloop - just on a well) installation is 6 simple pipe connections and one electrical connection and turn it on.

Putting a heat pump onto a groundloop when you have a well available is like buying the most efficient turbo-diesel car with 6 speed gearbox and waving goodbye to the Salesman as you leave the garage and still being in first gear when you come back for the first service. You still pay the same money for the heat pump, but you have higher running costs, put more wear and tear on it and so shorten the life.

Domestic hot water:
You'll all probably have heard the line of "the heat pump heats it up to 40/45°C and the immersion "tops it up to 65°C"".
Anyone using this type of installation is actually using the immersion to help the heat pump heat the heating system. If the tank is kept above 65°C by immersion, and a heating coil running in the tank is at a max in their case of 45°C, the coil is 20°C colder than the water in the tank and is actually taking heat from the domestic hot water, not giving it to it.

Our systems simply don't have any immersion, electric shower or other boiler - the heat pump only. Heating up to 52°C Domestic hot water anything up to 90°C, depending on tank arrangement.

There's no reason the other can't do it either, unless their only interest in heat pumps is selling pipe.Ask them not to install an immersion? See what they say.

If you want datasheets showing the difference in performance with the same heat pump with say -3°C source and 12°C source, let me know.
e-mail me and I'll reply with them.

Wood pellet boilers?
The main arguement for wood pellet boiler is that wood is carbon neutral, so only produces the same amount of Carbon dioxide when being burnt as it took out of the atmosphere when growing. Why has it not dawned on people that, that arguement may be fine in it's own right, but we are trying to cut down on CO2. Wood pellet boilers aren't even 100% efficient, and they are putting CO2 into the atmosphere. The reality is that until it was felled to burn and put CO2 back into the atmosphere that wood was and still would be taking CO2 out of the atmosphere. If the pellet are made from waste wood product, it would have been of better use beig muclhed to help other plants grow.

Kind Regards
Niall

Nordic

Surface power is rated at 460W (0.46kW) output. Costs Eur1400 + VAT.

I've been considering another type, and having looked at surface power will probably buy the other type:
Check out www.windsave.com
Rated at 1000W (1kW) output. Costs GBP1,000 (about the same price but more than twice the saving.

Regards
Niall

Nordic

Wind power:
One way you could probably use it without using the ESB is to have a change-over switch: ESB & Wind power In and House Out. Simply give a trigger supply to the Windpower unit from the ESB supply and switch your change-over switch to the windpower, so you are using the ESB to trigger the Windpower into action, but the only power going to the Consumer board would be from the Windpower. You're just brining the ESB in but not letting it get to the rest of the board. Doing this you'd need something like two Main fuses feeding your board, one feeding wind power and one ESB to the Board, but the wind power getting it's trigger supply before the switch.

yop

Surface power is rated at 460W (0.46kW) output. Costs Eur1400 + VAT.

I've been considering another type, and having looked at surface power will probably buy the other type:
Check out www.windsave.com
Rated at 1000W (1kW) output. Costs GBP1,000 (about the same price but more than twice the saving.

Regards
Niall

So you would go for the windsave about the surface power even with what xeoncentral says?

yop

Niall

You say that GSHP are not very efficent, do u think they are less efficent than the ASHP also?
Out of interest, what dept do u need to drill and what cost is it to drill down this dept then? I would have thought drilling a well is expensive is it not??

Nordic

Wind power:
Yes I think I'll go for windsave.com unit. Wiring it like I described, you don't have to have anything running on ESB except the trigger load for the unit itself.

GSHP are very efficient: I don't think you understood what I was saying. A shallow laid loop (3ft deep and pipes close together) is not efficient. This is bad installation, corner cutting. It's not the way to do it. 6ft deep and 4ft apart you will get COPs of about 4 when output is 35°C. Using the well you'd get COP of 7 when output is 35°C. ASHP are NOT good. When it's -8°C outside on a very cold winter's night, your source is -8°C. Well would be 20°C hotter as a source. Drilling usually Eur7/ft for boring, Eur3-4/ft for plastic lining. Oftern cheaper than 3,000ft of pipe 6ft deep + antifreeze! If you have a well (and most considering a heat pump think they have to have a big garden, so they live in the countryside and there's a good chance they already have a well) the well is the way to go.
Niall

rooferPete

Hi Nordic,

"An Irish roofer complaining about price!! That's a bit rich! I have yet to find an inexpensive roofer in Ireland."

This Roofing and Restoration Contractor is expensive as have two generations before him.

I sell on value for money, the work and the materials speak for themselves.

I Do Not State a Retail (or contract) Price then offer €500.00 to the customer as an incentive, neither do I Guarantee a €500.00 kick back for the introduction.

I am talking business ethics.

That said yes I can see your point about about using the well as the source for the heat, it makes sense to me.

Correct me if I am wrong you are describing the line of least resistance, less pipe means less work on the unit ?

Greater depth means less low ground temperature variation to consider unless the pipes are set 2 metres below ground surface level ?

Even with pipe depth of 2 metres we are back to wear and tear on the pump not dismissing higher running costs ?

Nordic

"Correct me if I am wrong you are describing the line of least resistance, less pipe means less work on the unit ?"
Wrong.

"Greater depth means less low ground temperature variation to consider unless the pipes are set 2 metres below ground surface level ?"
Wrong.

"Even with pipe depth of 2 metres we are back to wear and tear on the pump not dismissing higher running costs ?"
Wrong.

This is the problem. With heat pumps, what seems to be obvious may actually be the opposite. There are two types of approach from plumbers 1. it's working, it must be okay. 2. I don't know how it works and I'm not bothered, so I don't want to do it.

A heat pump compressor actually running can make you think all is well. It doesn't mean it's running efficiently. Apologies if what follows is a bit long-winded but it's important to understand what is actually happening in a heat pump. Knowing your stuff will let you filter out the ones who are only in it to sell pipe. They won't know what you're talking about. Understand it and you'll be able to ask the right questions. Think you know it and you can be hoodwinked.

Here it is: Basics:
A heat pump is a refrigeration unit. You will be familiar with the heat you feel from the back of your fridge. That heat is not produced by the fridge, it' the heat that was inside taken out through compression of the refrigerant gas.
Same thing happens in a heat pump.
To understand what's happening you need to understand the gas theory first. Gas pressure, it's temperature and it's volume are all related. Adjusting one effects the others. If you fix the volume (say like you do with a pressure cooker) and add heat the pressure has to increase.
Basically with a contained gas, adjusting the volume, and pressure will let you change the temperature.
Low pressure = low temperature
High pressure = high temperature
The gas in the evaporator (exchanger) plate inside the fridge has had the gas pressure dropped so the gas temperature is lower than the fridge air. Heat travels from the hot thing to the cold thing, so the heat inside travels into this gas as it is passed through the plate. The cold (low pressure) gas collects heat from inside the fridge. The evaporator (exchanger) in your water to water heat pump has cold (low pressure range of 40 to 65psi) gas in contact with the water as it travels through from your source. Heat won't transfer into the gas until the gas is colder than the source liquid. So the colder the source the colder (and lower pressure) the gas has to be to collect heat.

To get that heat transferred into your heating system it sends the gas (which has collected heat) through the compressor to reduce the volume and increase the pressure (taking the same heat but compressing it to a smaller volume) and so the temerpature is raised in the gas (high pressure in range of 250 to 330psi). This gas is sent around a similar exchanger, but this time it's the heating water that's travelling through it, and the gas is hotter than the water. The heat travels from the gas into the water, and so your heating system is getting hotter.
Looking at the compressor: the closer the low pressure and high pressure are kept to each other the less of a range the compressor has to compress, and so the less work it has to do, the less current it draws.
You're looking for the same high pressure (delivered heating system temperature) with both a groundloop and a well source, but with a well source your water is at a higher temperature to start with and so the low pressure doesn't have to go as low as with a groundloop. The colder the groundloop the lower the pressure, and so the more work, the more current etc.
Looking at the groundloop:
The ground may be a 6°C, but the pipe has to be colder to set-up a heat transfer from the ground to the pipe itself. The water inside the pipe has to be colder again to transfer the heat to the water inside the pipe. This is why the loop will have anti-freeze in it. Untreated water starts to freeze @ 4°C. Adding anti-freeze lowers the freezing temperature so it doesn't freeze, but it also lowers the specific heat of water, reducing it's ability to collect and release heat.

The closer they are to each other, the sooner two adjacent pipes are collecting heat from the same piece of ground. As soon as they are, that piece of ground drops in temperature at twice the rate, and it's all downhill from there. The colder the water coming in the lower the gas pressure has to go again, increasing the current draw but actuall delivering less heat be cause there's less "heat to pump", hence the importance of the spacing and depth of the pipes.
With a well system, not only have you better (more useful and more efficient source temperatures) you also don't have a heat transfer required between the surrounding ground and the pipe. The water comes directly into the heat pump and into contact with the gas through the wall of the exchanger.

To really inprove the source temperature you can send the well water through a pre-cooler in a milking parlour, taking heat out of the milk (38°C) and raising the source temperature from 12°C to about 20°C while cooling the milk but making the heat pump over 1000% efficient.

Hope you can all sleep tonight after that!

Nordic

xonencentral wrote:

Hi,

Wind power for the home:
Check out this site http://www.bergey.com/
They have a 10kW 220VAC 50Hz unit for US$24,750 (about Eur19,335 in real money). Sounds like alot, but anyone with a (3500ft² house with well water and large heat pump, electric cooking, working from home, etc.) will have NO ESB bill, and will see it pay for itself in about 4 years. Just had a quick check and a Eur20,000 personal loan over 5 years is Eur411/month. A bit more than you'd be paying on ESB for that kind of house ESB bill, but once paid for your power is free.

yop

Fair old dog of a unit!! but intial outlay will pay for itself!!

xonencentral

Hi,

Just an update in case there is any confusion, grid-tieing in Ireland i.e. windsave requires you to get a certification from the ESB the same as Airtricity, SEI told my friend that it costs €10,000, there is no route here to do this yet other than getting a contract from the ESB and they aren't allowing even Airtricty connect to the grid at the moment never mind us simple folk. Also, with windsave you need a live supply (if you were allowed to connect it to the ESB in the first place which you arern't, they will disconnect your house if they find out) also you will be the only wind turbine owner in the dark in a power cut, again if you were allowed to use it in Ireland. The windsave also has no backup and when you use no power, its power is wasted, dosen't make any sense to me until you are allowed to grid-tie it to the ESB but don't hold your breath is what the SEI say?

With regards the Bergly 10KW system for 20K, thats a lot of money and by the time you add the duty at x% and VAT at 21%, shipping, installation, etc, etc, it ends up being a lot more. My friend got a quote from www.westwind.ie only several weeks ago for between 60K and 110K depending on the site for a 5KW Bergly SYSTEM for a full installation and they are the Bergly dealer in Ireland. Westwind's own website quote 15 years payback period.

My friend went through all of this process and he settled on surfacepower because it was the lowest risk and the quickest payback. The devil is in the detail, you need a simple product, good service and parts availability as well.

SEI also advised that wind turbines have to be CE marked for 4 different directives and to be careful of invalidating your house insurance for buying a non CE wind turbine. Planning conditions from the dept also state they must be white in colour. Just some more useless info as I remember it.

Be interested to hear from other people who have actually spent money and installed a system.

Nordic

Yes. I spoke to Westwind.ie yesterday and they were quoting Eur6500 more for the inverter, and this is included in the bergey price of $24,750 before VAT than Bergy direct. Not much jog from Westwind.ie - "can sell you the system but I can't use it". Don't understand that kind of marketing. You can have stand alone system, but Eur60,000!!!

The duty is only about 2%.

I've been in contact with bergy. You can use this unit to give a direct supply instead of the ESB supply, via a changeover switch, so you choose ESB or Wind as and when you have the wind, to save the battery cost (Eur20,000+). This way if for the majority of the time you have sufficient supply from the wind, you don't need ESB. I just calculated using SEI's wind data for my location (average 7.25m/s) and my altitude annual probable wind generated output of 23,667kWh. My business and residential total for the last 12 months, house, offices, workshop, demonstrations, 3 phase converter, overhead gantry crane, etc, all came to 25,119 kWh (straight from the electricity bills. This 10kW unit should save me just a few Eur shy of Eur3,000/year. 6 to 7 years payback for me. Rising ESB costs will shorten the payback period. Planning Permission will be the problem.

Look at it this way. With a very small reduction in electrical usage (only 1,450 over a whole year) i wouldn't need the ESB at all.

Wouldn't that be nice: "What you won't let me connect to the grid. Okay disconnect me please, I don't need you anymore Mr ESB."

Mothman

Lads, a serious reality check is needed here about the payback time for wind generators, inc the Surface Power one.

Generally an annual windspeed of about 13-14mph is needed to have a payback time under 15 years. I can see that the surface power one has brought that timeframe down to under 10 years.

The problem with this is that there are very few of us exposed to a mean windspeed of anything near that high. The mean windspeed generally across the country is about 9mph....this is at 10m height. I've been recording windspeed since 1999, and my 10m mean is under 8mph

So if we take the 9mph speed example, that is if you can get the turbine up to that height, that is 4m/s windspeed, using the chart in the Surfacepower brochure, this would give you a saving of about eur18 per bill, or a little over eur100 per year. To cost the system you have to add batteries, some cabling, tower and installation, so can't see it being done for less than eur2000, so payback is heading for 20 years...

Some of the info on the Surfacepower site is very misleading. (I'm being polite)
http://www.surfacepower.com/index-9.html

The SP500W is a micro wind turbine system, it is designed to be an entry level product which will run your house lights, computer, TV, garden lights, security lights and at full use can provide up to €107 worth of electricity per Electricity bill.

There is not a site in these islands where a turbine can run at "full use" A 9mph site will have full use time of well under 1%, 14mph site near 10%

Thankfully, we are changing that, our SP500W has a payback period of 34 months and 28 months if you are a business (VAT claim). That's because we have slashed the cost of ownership, have a look around, you will find competitors selling this size of wind turbine for up to €8,000 in UK and Ireland. Ask us and we'll tell you where to look.

The only sites in Ireland with a payback time that short are perhaps some of the very exposed headlands such as Malin Head in a windy year, and only if you have the turbine mounted 20m or so up.

You will need to create a concrete base, the wind turbine locates onto a standard galvanized scaffolding pole, you will need a 3 core cable which runs down the middle of the pole, (cable size depends on how far between the turbine and the control system which you locate at your house). You will need to purchase a deep cycle battery from your local agent unless you are installing this in a boat, motorhome or have a solar energy system in place already. Its all in the instructions and you can contact technical support at any time if you get stuck. If you want to get a professional builder, electrician to install this kit, then the instructions will provide all the necessary information

All this has to be costed and added onto the turbine price quoted. And bear in mind that batteries will probably need to be replaced during lifetime of turbine.

End of reality check

If you want to get an indication of windspeed at your site try here
http://esb2.net.weblink.ie/SEI/MapPage.asp

But these are at 50-100m heights above ground, windspeed at 10m levels are perhaps 70% of the 50m speeds.

xonencentral

Question for Nordic,

Did westwind quote you 20,000 + for batteries ?

Mothman

Nordic wrote:

I've been in contact with bergy. You can use this unit to give a direct supply instead of the ESB supply, via a changeover switch, so you choose ESB or Wind as and when you have the wind, to save the battery cost (Eur20,000+). This way if for the majority of the time you have sufficient supply from the wind, you don't need ESB. I just calculated using SEI's wind data for my location (average 7.25m/s) and my altitude annual probable wind generated output of 23,667kWh. My business and residential total for the last 12 months, house, offices, workshop, demonstrations, 3 phase converter, overhead gantry crane, etc, all came to 25,119 kWh (straight from the electricity bills. This 10kW unit should save me just a few Eur shy of Eur3,000/year. 6 to 7 years payback for me. Rising ESB costs will shorten the payback period. Planning Permission will be the problem.

Look at it this way. With a very small reduction in electrical usage (only 1,450 over a whole year) i wouldn't need the ESB at all.

All fine and dandy if your wind is even all the time, fact it is not. There can be weeks of near calm followed by weeks of gales. The calm periods giving up nothing and the gales giving you 3 times more than your needs. This is why batteries are used to store the excess for the lean times.

As for the average 7.25m/s which is 16mph, the equivalent figure for my site is 6.5m/s 14mph, but at 10m height my mean for past 6 years is less than 8mph. So I advise caution in how you interpret that 7.25m/s

The cost of tower for a 10kw is very significant

xonencentral

Sorry 20,000 + euros for battery's ?,

My mate paid €190 each up the North for 2 Exide deep cycle "renewable energy batterys"

He told me to say also that the real value he gets from the Surfacepower turbines is that it dosen't need to run at full power to provide him with full power, i.e. say during the night when nothing is on except on/off IR security lights, fridge, his battery's are charging and are fully charged in the morning and that happens every day and he is able to draw full power all the time.

I think it's a balance between positioning your turbines at full height and how many hours a day you need it to supply full power.

Practical Example: If you have a 1000 watt system, and you come home at 6pm. Go to bed at 12 midnight, (6 hours) you would only need 250 watts from your turbine over a 24 hour period to run at full power (1000W) between 6pm and midnight.

All I know is he has his turbines at 8 metres and his last bill was €41 euros and half of that was VAT and the PSO charge. All I can say is, the proof is in the pudding and he keeps rubbing the proof in our faces.

Regarding the windsave system, this has no backup/storage method, all the power you might generate from that at night/at work would be wasted, not very green but it will be a great product once we are allowed grid-tie with the ESB without all the current red-tape and cost which are just methods to keep us from connecting.

Nordic

Mothman wrote:

Lads, a serious reality check is needed here about the payback time for wind generators, inc the Surface Power one.

Thanks for the info. I got my average windspeed (7.25m/s) from: http://esb2.net.weblink.ie/SEI/MapPage.asp
and used the bergey.com spreadsheet which then reduces this to a probability % throughout the year. It also takes into account the height of the turbine and the site altitude. I mirrored the spreadsheet and took both my night and day readings throughout each bi-monthly bill for the past 12 months. I didn't just check it against the overall kWh usage, because if you are using more than it is producing you'll need to have help from ESB. I took the times I was producing too much as of no benefit (I didn't look at this as a credit). I can e-mail you the spreadsheet if you like, and maybe you can look at it to see if it is "realistic". There's a Planning App in for 16 120m turbines 4 miles from me in clear view North of me. I can see for 30 miles South, West and East.
I fly a helicopter, and I can tell you now, the wind here is so strong , it's actually a problem getting enough days to be able to take off in a wind less than 25-30 knots.
I did stress that this isn't for everyone. My exposure coupled with my usage justifies a 10kW unit, I believe. If you check the spreadsheet you might find differently. I'd be interested to know if you can confirm the figures add up or not.

Cost of tower would be significant onto these costs, but I already have a very strong steel frame building (3.2ton gantry crane inside) which I can extend the centre gable post (already 7.5m high) to support the turbine.

I've just e-mail them to you now, spreadsheet with a map locating my site.

Love your web-site. Excellent info.

Regards

Niall

xonencentral

Please help me on this;

I went to that website which I gather is supposed to tell me what my windspeed is and it a modest 7.25 m/s unless I am misunderstanding it.

What I can honestly say is, I can see at least 40 large (GE, I think) wind turbines majestically in the distance from my house and the windspeed at my house on ground level (on average) is higher than this website indicates, in fact we have spent over €2,000 on a significant tree border to try and reduce ground wind speed and unless evrything is bolted down around my house, my neighbor is in posession of it the next morning.

I find all the info here so far very good, but I have done my homework and I have to follow my friends lead and buy a surfacepower system, his results are my validation, it's too cheap to be too concerned about the science and my house is windy enough for me, I want his ESB bill every 2 months. I'll be sure to post my experience up here when I install which won't be too long away.

xonencentral

Hmmmm, I notice that the website giving wind speeds is provided by ESB-I.

Is that not like Fianna Fail providing Fine Gaels website.

Are the ESB not currently freezing the addition of any wind connections to the grid because of unreliability ?

Yet Denmark has no problem, actually most EU countries don't have any problem, is it possible we need to send the ESB into the hospital to get them treated for a serious case of Eircom-itis ?

It takes me back; 10 years ago, I told some people in my local pub I was off to England to buy a car and I reckoned I was going to save about 5 grand Irish and the response was , "sure if it was that easy, wouldn't we be all at it" and do you what, I saved at least 7 grand about 40% by wasting a couple of days and buying a couple of magazines.

"The proof is in the pudding"

Nordic

xonencentral wrote:

Hi,

Just an update in case there is any confusion, grid-tieing in Ireland i.e. windsave requires you to get a certification from the ESB the same as Airtricity, SEI told my friend that it costs €10,000, there is no route here to do this yet other than getting a contract from the ESB and they aren't allowing even Airtricty connect to the grid at the moment never mind us simple folk. Also, with windsave you need a live supply (if you were allowed to connect it to the ESB in the first place which you arern't, they will disconnect your house if they find out).

My friend went through all of this process and he settled on surfacepower because it was the lowest risk and the quickest payback. The devil is in the detail, you need a simple product, good service and parts availability as well.

SEI also advised that wind turbines have to be CE marked for 4 different directives and to be careful of invalidating your house insurance for buying a non CE wind turbine. Planning conditions from the dept also state they must be white in colour. Just some more useless info as I remember it.

Be interested to hear from other people who have actually spent money and installed a system.

xonencentra,
Don't know who you were talking to in ESB or SEI, but two buddies of mine are ESB Engineers, and we are actually listed with SEI, so I know them well, & news I'm getting is it's far easier than that.

Wicklow weather & myself e-mailed each other, he looked at the figures, made some comments, which I agree with, and I adjusted the spreadsheet accordingly. I'm in a windy, hilltop location, with heavy residential & business usage and it would take 9 to 10 years to pay back keeping ESB at today's rates, so probably 9 years allowing them room for price increases over 10 years.
Windsave offers your windpower @ €1440/kWh. cheapest I've found yet. Surfacepower costs twice this per kWh.
in my situation it would payback in 18months, even running @ 75%. my background elec use is a pretty constant minimum of 750W, would be covered entirely by the windsave unit running @75% capacity, whereas for the same money the surfacepower unit @ 75% would only give me a miserable 345W, less than half of my requirements, so I'd still have to pay ESB for have. surfacepower would take twice as long to payback - simple maths.
I'm giving Windsave a call in the morning, to order.

Mothman

Nordic wrote:

Windsave offers your windpower @ €1440/kWh.
in my situation it would payback in 18months, even running @ 75%. my background elec use is a pretty constant minimum of 750W, would be covered entirely by the windsave unit running @75% capacity, whereas for the same money the surfacepower unit @ 75% would only give me a miserable 345W, less than half of my requirements, so I'd still have to pay ESB for half. surfacepower would take twice as long to payback - simple maths.
I'm giving Windsave a call in the morning, to order.

I can certainly see the sense in the logic, and while I think payback on the Windsave would be longer than 2 years, with your set up I would definitely go with that myself. I reckon payback of 5-6 years.

From the calculations, the turbine would be producing at 75%+ 10% of the time. This excess (The electricity produced above 75%) would also be about 10% of annual output, but half the time you'd probably use the excess anyway, so I'd say you'd make use of about 95% of power produced. The unnown is how much power would be produced, but a 1kw turbine on your site would probably produce in excess of 2100kWh per annum

It should be noted that at my site that it's been the windiest Jan-Mar period since I started recording.

And Xonencentral, with what you say about your windspeed then the surface power unit certainly looks a viable option for you.

The point I want to stress is that I believe the vast majority of us don't get enough wind to get a reasonable payback, but for those on top of hills or in seaside locations, then it's likely there would be enough wind.

xonencentral

The main issues I am also considering are:

a) As demand increases, we could be in for more service disruptions on top of the weather caused blackouts and I'd like to maintain my satelite, TV, lights and central heating so backup is important, surfacepower delivers on this and windsave dosen't.
b) I like to utilise the full potential of my turbine, and again SP uses battery storage and windsave has none.
c) I'd like to keep it legal, SEI warned my friend about invalidating his house insurance, (apparently any damage caused by your turbine to your property or your neighbours or god forbid an accidental death could make you personally liable for all damages as your insurance will claim the product wasn't legal if it isn't CE marked accordingly and they could refuse to payout) They also advised the standard applied to the windsave G something or other allows the windsave to connect to the UK grid only. Ireland has no such authorisation and you must go the same route as Airtricity to get a windsave connected in Ireland LEGALLY and to do so will cost in excess of €10,000 and to connect without telling the ESB would be foolhardy as they will see the windsave unit outside your house when they read the meter and hence might disconnect you.
d) The windsave needs a professional installer, none in ireland.

But I do agree as soon as we can legally use such a grid-tie product in Ireland and also have one with back-up as well, the best of both products combined, then we are well on the road to renewable energy.

Nordic

Just in case you think it's a giveaway in the UK - it's not!

Firstly, their economy is not as bouyant as ours. They are ONLY giving their Grant on loops.

Not only that but in most cases you have to pay £200 for an inspection of the work before they will give the Grant. Therefore the Grant in most cases is really only £1000, less more labour, but with far higher running costs. Where's the incentive. In effect, the UK government has tried to make it look like they are promoting, but in fact they have seen that ground loops are more labour intensive than well installations, and so are they get their money's worth by also having the Grant go back into increased employment if it is used, and they get alot of that back from the worker in tax anyway.

We are registered with Clearskies, and ALL of our UK customers went down the route of trying to get the Grant but the figures just didn't add up. To date not one has actually used the Grant. They used wells and will recover what they lost by not getting the Grant in a matter of a year through lower running costs with the well, and no loop cost.

The best move the UK government has made, and it is something that this govenment needs to wake up to is VAT reclaims for new build. Build a new house in the UK and you can claim the VAT back. Imagine that here? They'd be like headless chickens!

Nordic

I'm looking again at the Surface power brochure. Look carefully at it agin boys and girls. Remember I said I was in a windy spot. My average windspeed here on the map is 7.25m/s. Wicklowweather says it will probably be actually lower, but even taking 7.25m/s on surfacepower's graph on page 3 of the brochure it produces a massive 150W - laughable absolutely laughable. Stay away. You need an average sped of 30mph!!! to produce the 460W out of it.

yop

I talked to the lads in Windsave and they said my spark could install the Windsave unit, did not require a professional to install

Nordic

Yes. I called them too, but earliest delivery is June. From the photos (fitted to the side of a house) it's not that big and bulky. I also want to know if I can expand to have multiple units later if I find they pay back quickly. This way I can try out with very little expense and add-on later if it's viable. Seems to be the way to go.

xonencentral

You not doing your homework. You are saying that low windspeed will only produce X watts from the surfacepower system because of the windspeed, I afraid the same applies to Windsave it starts at 3- m/s but I can't find a graph showing what the output is at that speed if any or any other speed?

Its the same for any wind turbine, the windsave is no different, it will produce 1 KW at 12 m/s but you won't get that by bolting it on to the side of your house as in the brochure.

The real difference here is whether your choice is for on-grid or off-grid systems. Both are completely different products but lets not be fooled by anybody using the low wind argument against one product and then completely ignoring the same argument for the other.

I can only outline my mates results on surfacepower, he has two, he CAN talk but maybe somebody out there should spend some money on windsave and lets get "facts" from both sides. All the calculations, theory and spreadsheets won't account for the practicalities of any system or how a person actually untilises it.

I think they are both very good affordable products but I don't intend to be on candle power in a power cut (how embarrassing would that be with a wind turbine in your garden) and I want battery storage so the surfacepower suits my requirements over the other. Its just a matter of choice and how high I will install it will depend on my usage, again no different for any wind turbine.

The price is very acceptable to me as the cheapest "real" price my mate got was several thousand more than this, and the on-grid windsave should be cheaper than the off-grid surfacepower as it is missing a lot of features/electronics as it only outputs electricity and dosen't store or manage that output. (Still the issue that windsave is not legal to use in Ireland)

Wind measurements are all about height and that's everyone's personal decision when installing.

My current ground wind speed in town courtesy of the met measurement is 21 mph and its a normal day.

P.S. If anyone has found a graph of the output of the windsave, please put it up here. I can't find one as it will show a scale up from 0 Watts just like any wind turbine does with windspeed.

Nordic

You're quite right xonencentral. I contacted Windsave's MD & was e-mailed their test data. 7.25m/s gives about 300W. Not what I'm looking for, but no matter how you look at it - twice the output of a surfacepower unit for the same money.
He also mentioned that their price is now €1835.
Having been willing to put serious money into a wind system, I can now see that unless you up-size to something like a 30kW, you won't get any worthwhile output. The size & cost is prohibitive, and now makes me mad at how our beautiful landscape is obviously being blemished by 120m turbines for what I now know to be a relatively very small return.
Put them at sea like the Arklow Sand Banks Project & the infrastructure is already then in place for anchoring wavepower units (with solar "lids") to the wind turbines. This would make them worth while but at least we'd still have a beautiful landscape.
No wind turbine for me I'm afraid - I'll spend my €1600 on a generator for emergency use.
ESB win unfortunately, and they don't need to be hard to deal with.
Today's home use turbines are a waste of time - just what Mothman was trying to tell us.

Nordic

You're quite right xonencentral. I contacted Windsave's MD & was e-mailed their test data. 7.25m/s gives about 300W. Not what I'm looking for, but no matter how you look at it - twice the output of a surfacepower unit for the same money.
He also mentioned that their price is now €1835.
Having been willing to put serious money into a wind system, I can now see that unless you up-size to something like a 30kW, you won't get any worthwhile output. The size & cost is prohibitive, and now makes me mad at how our beautiful landscape is obviously being blemished by 120m turbines for what I now know to be a relatively very small return.
Put them at sea like the Arklow Sand Banks Project & the infrastructure is already then in place for anchoring wavepower units (with solar "lids") to the wind turbines. This would make them worth while but at least we'd still have a beautiful landscape.
No wind turbine for me I'm afraid - I'll spend my €1600 on a generator for emergency use.
ESB win unfortunately, and they don't need to be hard to deal with.
Today's home use turbines are a waste of time - just what Mothman was trying to tell us.

xonencentral

I actually ordered my system from Surface Power yesterday, I want my friends ESB bill, he runs all his lights, TV's, sat, central heating, etc from it without using ESB at all, hence his low bill, just uses cooker and kettle and any other heavy stuff on ESB. Agree on the larger system's, just to expensive. When ordering from SP, I asked about bigger systems, they will have bigger ones at low prices coming on line over the next 24 months up to 5 KW. They told me they would allow a trade-in of any smaller ones purchased should somebody want to upgrade as newer products came online.

Got the low down on some other things doing my homework, to connect a windsave to the grid you need a generating licence from the commision for electricity regulation and in that step, there is a testing specifcation to be completed for the ESB to ensure that your equipment can supply power that is of the required quality, etc. (THat means you have buy the equipment in advance, have it tested and the ESB might say no good but anyhow this is the bit the ESB are not even doing at the moment) and this whole step is only designed for large commercial windfarms but in the absence of a system for micro grid-tieing, (one size fits all so (10,000 euros as well to test the winsave) we're going to be excluded from grid-tieing until the new rules are agreed), I won't be waiting for the ESB to rush on this one, this is why it's illegal just to go ahead and do it. (SEI)
I asked my my local RECI electrician if he would do the install for me (building regs) (Windsave system) and he reckoned I was MAD and he would be disbarred or whatever the equivilant was for doing it, he reckons you don't mess with the ESB.

SEI also say future supports are on the way, green energy certificates which can be cashed in and tax benfeits for people who produce green energy, this has to be for us small guys. Thank God and they are all rebate schemes for energy produced so safe enough to go ahead and purchase, any potential support/grant on buying the equipment isn't on the agenda apparently.

My current ground wind speed where I live is 29 mph (13 m/s on the ground) according to the met service today, another normal day and I would be getting full wind speed from my turbine even if low down, so I can't wait to get it up in the air.

We been out with anometer doing a site test and the average on my site is 15.2 m/s for the last 2 hours with a maximum of 18.23 m/s recorded so my personal ground wind speed is higher than the met office but I guess those guys just average everything out. The guys who want you to spend 60 grand on a system recommend windtests which of course I suppose they will do for another 2 grand. You would want to the Sheik of Oman to do business with some of these wind turbine dealers.

"Must go and have a word with the neighbours and break them in gently"