Ireland is no longer attractive for IT jobs?

na1

Don't know if this is the right place for the topic.

What I've recently realized is that the Ireland in no longer a good place for IT jobs.
As a result there is a huge shortage of the experienced IT professionals.
Even with good salaries it is hard to fill the positions even with non-EU candidates.
The IT professionals are preferring remote jobs, working remotely for multinationals from their own countries even for a smaller compensation.
And there are few reasons for it:
1 taxation: the progressive taxation in Ireland is one of the worst.
I'm paying between 30% to 40% of the income, but don't see where the tax money go. In case of losing a job the state benefit entitlements are less than for those who never worked a day in their lives.
2.health service: it is expensive for those who don't have a medical card (i.e. for those who actually provide for the HSE budget). Many other countries have either state funded GP-s for everyone, or less tax rate. Most countries with high tax rates like in Ireland do provide the basic level of a free health service.

3. Housing crisis: I personally do own the house, but those who're just considering moving to Ireland will have issues finding a decent accommodation for a reasonable price.

From my personal experience there is a shortage of experienced IT staff,
and it is extremely hard to fill the positions from abroad.
I've contacted few people from abroad, trying to convince them to relocate. But most of them are happy where they are.

The level of pay, even though it is very good for Ireland, adjusted to purchasing power and the benefits of living in the country are no longer attractive for candidates.

Pelvis

What kind of IT job are you looking to fill? And what salary are you offering?

seamus

It's probably more the fact that people are generally happy to stay where they are and there's a massive demand for technology workers.

Thus it's hard to find someone based in Ireland (or at least there's a lot of competition for candidates), and most people based overseas are doing OK and don't want to relocate to Ireland any more than an Irish person wants to relocate to Italy. I mean, you could offer me twice the salary for the same job and I still probably wouldn't relocate.

The EU well is tapped pretty dry, especially for experienced tech people. You can probably get a young person from Poland or Lithuania to make the trip, but someone in their 30s is less likely to make a massive relocation, even for more money.

If you want a more experienced worker, you need to go outside the EU.

Tax in Ireland is at the lower end of the scale. House prices and rent in Dublin are about as bad as any capital city. The state of our health service isn't that big a deal for tech workers since most companies are now offering health insurance or the salaries are big enough to afford it.

As a whole, there is an issue that's going to rear its head soon as tech companies find it impossible to get people in Dublin due to housing issues. But it doesn't seem to be stopping any companies yet. Massive tech jobs announcements in the last two weeks.

na1

Pelvis wrote: »

What kind of IT job are you looking to fill? And what salary are you offering?

I'm not advertising jobs here))

I just thought that the salary range from 80-100k+ is pretty decent

na1

seamus wrote: »

It's probably more the fact that people are generally happy to stay where they are and there's a massive demand for technology workers.

Thus it's hard to find someone based in Ireland (or at least there's a lot of competition for candidates), and most people based overseas are doing OK and don't want to relocate to Ireland any more than an Irish person wants to relocate to Italy. I mean, you could offer me twice the salary for the same job and I still probably wouldn't relocate.

I'm talking about global job market.
What if you are a Chinese national working in China for an average IT salary in your area, and asked to relocate to Ireland for a good local salary?

seamus wrote: »

The EU well is tapped pretty dry, especially for experienced tech people. You can probably get a young person from Poland or Lithuania to make the trip, but someone in their 30s is less likely to make a massive relocation, even for more money..
If you want a more experienced worker, you need to go outside the EU.

This is what we do. Unfortunately it doesn't work anymore, like, say 10 years ago...

seamus wrote: »

Tax in Ireland is at the lower end of the scale. House prices and rent in Dublin are about as bad as any capital city.

The number of accommodations in the market has shrank significantly.
And I don't believe the other EU capitals as bad as Dublin. That's not my opinion this is from the local news and from the daft statistics)

seamus wrote: »

The state of our health service isn't that big a deal for tech workers since most companies are now offering health insurance or the salaries are big enough to afford it.

I've never seen the Health Insurances which covers 100% GP visits.
Or even if there is one, not many companies would offer them
And don't forget the BIK taxation...

seamus wrote: »

But it doesn't seem to be stopping any companies yet. Massive tech jobs announcements in the last two weeks.

Job announcement doesn't guarantee the job will be taken. And even if the job is taken what % are the the people relocated to Dublin?
Do you have the stats about actual jobs filled from abroad?

OMM 0000

My wife and I have talked about relocating to Ireland.

I'm a senior IT guy working in Japan.

I'm hesitant to move back. Three reasons:

1. Rent is nuts. Yes it's expensive in Tokyo too, but Tokyo is awesome. I like Dublin, but like, Japan has virtually no scumbags. Yeah there is some mafia stuff, but that's all hidden. There are literally zero teenagers throwing rocks at buses or whatever. That's a bit of a tangent but my point is Tokyo is expensive but you get a lot more in return if you're a foreigner.

2. I don't like the small mindedness of many Irish people. That sort of "who does he think he is" mentality which is so common. Crabs in a bucket.

3. I've gotten used to having seasons.

Most foreigners probably only consider 1 & 3. But they are big negatives.

na1

OMM 0000 wrote: »

1. Rent is nuts. Yes it's expensive in Tokyo too, but Tokyo is awesome. I like Dublin, but like, Japan has virtually no scumbags. Yeah there is some mafia stuff, but that's all hidden. There are literally zero teenagers throwing rocks at buses or whatever. That's a bit of a tangent but my point is Tokyo is expensive but you get a lot more in return if you're a foreigner.

A while ago I was checking the stats about the crime rate (burglary) per capita, in different countries. I couldn't find the Irish rate, but UK rate was much higher than in Eastern Europe.
The punishment looks like a joke here. Some criminals have 60+ convictions, and still can't be locked for life.

bobbysands81

There is still absolutely massive demand for IT jobs in Ireland.

Your gripes about Ireland are all true but your assertion that Ireland is not good for IT jobs is completely wrong.

Bar your anecdotal evidence can you back your assertion up with evidence?

AndrewJRenko

OMM 0000 wrote: »

My wife and I have talked about relocating to Ireland.

I'm a senior IT guy working in Japan.

I'm hesitant to move back. Three reasons:

1. Rent is nuts. Yes it's expensive in Tokyo too, but Tokyo is awesome. I like Dublin, but like, Japan has virtually no scumbags. Yeah there is some mafia stuff, but that's all hidden. There are literally zero teenagers throwing rocks at buses or whatever. That's a bit of a tangent but my point is Tokyo is expensive but you get a lot more in return if you're a foreigner.

2. I don't like the small mindedness of many Irish people. That sort of "who does he think he is" mentality which is so common. Crabs in a bucket.

3. I've gotten used to having seasons.

Most foreigners probably only consider 1 & 3. But they are big negatives.

Who does he think he is?

na1

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There is still absolutely massive demand for IT jobs in Ireland.

Exactly! And I'm trying to explain why.
There is not enough IT professionals looking for jobs in Ireland, and IT professionals from abroad are not willing to relocate. I'm talking about candidates from outside EU

Americaninexile

na1 wrote: »

Exactly! And I'm trying to explain why.
There is not enough IT professionals looking for jobs in Ireland, and IT professionals from abroad are not willing to relocate. I'm talking about candidates from outside EU

IT professionals from abroad are flocking to Ireland. We have record numbers at the moment.

Approx one third of all non-EU nationals taking up jobs in ireland are taking IT jobs.

Gavin "shels"

Can definitely see the evidence of non-EU nationals in the IT company I work for in Dublin - majority of tech roles seem to be getting filled by Brazilians or Indians.

hurler32

Ireland has a system that tax’s those in employment heavily and rewards those who will never do a days work in their lives far higher than all other European countries .
Those same receiptents are also allowed to rob the taxpayer and their properties without any real concern of been punished and also ruin areas and reduce the quality of life in these areas that people pay a lot to buy a house or rent a property in .
The Irish might be ok with this but many from other countries aren’t interested in paying a lot of tax to facilitate this .

seannash

OMM 0000 wrote: »

2. I don't like the small mindedness of many Irish people. That sort of "who does he think he is" mentality which is so common. Crabs in a bucket.

I don't think this attitude really exists anymore to be fair and if it does you're surrounding yourself with the wrong people.
I moved back to Ireland about 9 years ago and never found people to have that attitude.


Your point about scumbags is hugely valid. I despair at some of whats going on and absolutely nothing being done to curb it.

loyatemu

Facebook and Salesforce have each announced 1500 new hires in the last couple of months. Where they're going to live I don't know, but they obviously think they'll be able to hire them.

Where, outside of the US, is there a huge number of IT professionals available? India and China maybe but they're not particularly useful if you're setting up an EMEA headquarters.

seannash

loyatemu wrote: »

Facebook and Salesforce have each announced 1500 new hires in the last couple of months. Where they're going to live I don't know, but they obviously think they'll be able to hire them.

Where, outside of the US, is there a huge number of IT professionals available? India and China maybe but they're not particularly useful if you're setting up an EMEA headquarters.

Also in the US an hour commute or more is very common so all these people could live an hour away from Dublin.
Personally I wouldn't commute to Dublin but I know plenty who do. And if you are coming from overseas you have no life built in Ireland so you can move anywhere close to Dublin and not feel the pressure of needing to be in the city as your whole life is there.

Ave Sodalis

hurler32 wrote:

Ireland has a system that tax’s those in employment heavily and rewards those who will never do a days work in their lives far higher than all other European countries . Those same receiptents are also allowed to rob the taxpayer and their properties without any real concern of been punished and also ruin areas and reduce the quality of life in these areas that people pay a lot to buy a house or rent a property in . The Irish might be ok with this but many from other countries aren’t interested in paying a lot of tax to facilitate this .

How on earth can some people turn absolutely any thread into a dole basing thread?

I think Dublin is just a very unattractive place for people to work right now, mainly due to living costs. Companies that set up outside of Dublin might find more luck in getting employees.

na1

Americaninexile wrote: »

IT professionals from abroad are flocking to Ireland. We have record numbers at the moment.

This doesn't prove anything. What I was talking is about current situation. Do you have figures on the headcounts arrived withing last 6 months? And compare it to last few years?

Americaninexile wrote: »

Approx one third of all non-EU nationals taking up jobs in ireland are taking IT jobs.

Again this only proves that IT is one of the few qualifications which is easy to get visa.

na1

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

How on earth can some people turn absolutely any thread into a dole basing thread?

Because the current welfare system is one of the reasons that keeps highly qualified professionals from relocating here, and also attracts different sorts of scum

Make the county attactive to parasites, and only parasites will stay in that country.
I'm personally considering to leave, but still have some obligations...

bobbysands81

na1 wrote: »

This doesn't prove anything. What I was talking is about current situation. Do you have figures on the headcounts arrived withing last 6 months? And compare it to last few years?

Again this only proves that IT is one of the few qualifications which is easy to get visa.

More than 2,000 non-EEA nationals alone... and rising.

You don’t know how our employment system works.

bobbysands81

na1 wrote: »

Because the current welfare system is one of the reasons that keeps highly qualified professionals from relocating here, and also attracts different sorts of scum

Make the county attactive to parasites, and only parasites will stay in that country.
I'm personally considering to leave, but still have some obligations...

Calling people scum and parasites is a bit harsh!

na1

bobbysands81 wrote: »

More than 2,000 non-EEA

More than 2000 non-EEA IT professionals in the last 6 month? Source?

na1

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Calling people scum and parasites is a bit harsh!

Google Dictionary result for parasite:
parasite /ˈparəsʌɪt/
1) ...
2) a person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return.

OMM 0000

I think it's possible to keep things reasonable here.

Is Ireland, particularly Dublin, ridiculously expensive when it comes to rent? Yes.

Is it extremely difficult to find a place to rent in Dublin? Yes.

Is this turning off people from living in Dublin? Yes.

Are there tons of IT jobs in Dublin? Yes.

Do some people come here for our social welfare? Yes.

Is it a problem? Yes.

Does it have anything to do with people coming here to work in IT roles? No.

ELM327

Considering IT and fintech especially is expanding in Ireland, many job announcements in the past 3-6 months, I do not understand the basis for the OP's view.

seannash wrote: »

Also in the US an hour commute or more is very common so all these people could live an hour away from Dublin.
Personally I wouldn't commute to Dublin but I know plenty who do. And if you are coming from overseas you have no life built in Ireland so you can move anywhere close to Dublin and not feel the pressure of needing to be in the city as your whole life is there.

Some days it's a one hour commute from south dublin to north dublin, and I'm commuting less than that time wise from 70km away!

AndrewJRenko

Gavin shels wrote: »

Can definitely see the evidence of non-EU nationals in the IT company I work for in Dublin - majority of tech roles seem to be getting filled by Brazilians or Indians.

I know of one tech company that is bringing over 10 Brazilians to start working on development projects next month. They found them via LinkedIn.

If only they'd gone for one more, they'd have the best soccer team in town.

NSAman

seannash wrote: »

I don't think this attitude really exists anymore to be fair and if it does you're surrounding yourself with the wrong people.
I moved back to Ireland about 9 years ago and never found people to have that attitude.


Your point about scumbags is hugely valid. I despair at some of whats going on and absolutely nothing being done to curb it.

It exists believe me.

That attitude especially when coming home is very prevalent. I have experienced it on more than one occasion. It says more about the person saying it, than it does about you or me.

With regards to the Irish situation. It is a bloody expensive country to live in. It is not enticing for many of us at the moment, wanting to move home. Personally, the lifestyle I have where I am is far superior to anything I could have in Ireland.

I do see myself coming back home at some stage, but only on a temporary basis for a number of months a year.

Rory28

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Who does he think he is?

Absolute notions bout himself :pac:

Japan sounds great in fairness. I wouldn't be rushing back to Ireland until the after the fallout of brexit.

Mrs OBumble

loyatemu wrote: »

Facebook and Salesforce have each announced 1500 new hires in the last couple of months. Where they're going to live I don't know, but they obviously think they'll be able to hire them.

When announcements like this are made in Galway, the people have usually already been hired. Often they were already in the company on fixed term contracts, and the IDA money is just extending them.

EdgeCase

hurler32 wrote: »

Ireland has a system that tax’s those in employment heavily and rewards those who will never do a days work in their lives far higher than all other European countries .
Those same receiptents are also allowed to rob the taxpayer and their properties without any real concern of been punished and also ruin areas and reduce the quality of life in these areas that people pay a lot to buy a house or rent a property in .
The Irish might be ok with this but many from other countries aren’t interested in paying a lot of tax to facilitate this .

Try paying Belgian or French tax!
Or being self-employed in either of those places!
I worked self employed in Belgium and Spain and wow, they treat you like you're a criminal for even suggesting such a thing. The immediate assumption isn't "oh great an entrepreneur" it's : "alarm bells : tax evasion!! SEVERE AUDIT time"

The bureaucracy and tax would give you nightmares and makes Ireland look like some kind of ultra-business friendly place.

You also may not get free GP cover in Ireland, but you don't pay anything like the levels of social charges or local taxes. Admittedly, you do make up for some of that with things like VHI or other health insurance and lack of funded creches and so on, but it's all swings and roundabouts.

From what I see it's either a case of pooling your money into public services (which is fairer) or not pooling it and having to privately pay out of pocket for stuff.

Ireland's also not that generous with people who've never worked a day in their lives. There's a lot mythology about that and our social spending isn't as high as quite a lot of other parts of Northern Europe.

I'd rather have decent social spending though than the levels of poverty seen in some parts of the states (and not every state is in that position either as state governments have solid programmes and higher tax in some places).

As for the "who does he think he is" mentality. It think that's very much a personal thing depending on who your family is.

I haven't encountered it myself. I've actually found huge support for startup businesses too, although I can only speak for Cork. You will generally get really good support from other entrepreneurs, business networks, even local media will be more than delighted to get behind a startup and I've seen and experienced that regularly.

The one thing I do find is that Irish people (including some of those abroad) are good at is moaning and getting into cycles of "only in Ireland".

My view of it is that if you've people like that in your life, stop talking to them and find more optimistic people to have as friends as they only bring you down.

I would agree though that rents are FAR too high but I think that's being caused by a simple problem stemming from the 2008 economic crisis. The construction sector here went from churning out 100,000 units a year at peak to basically zero for several years and lost all of its people. It's taking time to ramp that back up and it's coinciding with a huge economic upsurge. So, unfortunately we are going to have a housing crisis until the supply catches up.

The only way we'll avoid that happening again is never to repeat anything as stupid as 2008.

I think house prices in Ireland will moderate. We've a good bit of leeway to absorb any Brexit downturn too as long as it doesn't take a HUGE chunk of GDP, but if it just slows us to a level where are still growing, but more slowly, it might actually balance things out. 1 to 2% growth for a couple of years wouldn't necessarily be a terrible outcome here.

whippet

senior staff tend to be settled with families and dublin isn't all that appealing anymore - available property is sparse and too expensive - leading to a nightmare of a commute.

I spent the guts of 20 years working in dublin and I was ready to take a massive pay cut to take a job close to where I live for the quality of life - but 12 months ago our company took a huge step and invested in a policy / culture of remote smart working. I now would only ever spend one day a week in the office (arriving after the morning rush and leaving before the chaos in the evening) and wouldn't even consider changing jobs now.

It took a bit of planning and investment but we now have gone from a position of finding and retaining experienced staff very difficult to having a very happy settled group.

From what I know most of the multinational IT companies expect staff to be in the office the majority of the time and they also insist on being based in the worst parts of the capital for traffic congestion.