Need to take my kids off their mom

LegacyUser

Need to go unreg for this one.

Myself and my ex split almost 7 years. No marriage so no legal issues and we've always had a fairly amicable relationship since. Still do. Until, that is, I walk into her house when I'm collecting the kids for the weekly visits. I get so angry when I go over there seeing the filth that she's allowing herself, and especially, the kids to live in. There's rubbish all over the sitting room, kitchen, hall, bagged and unbagged. The kids range in age from 16 to 9 (we have 5 together), and I certainly know that they have their role to play in all of this too.

She's not looking after them at all. Her meals are ready meals and processed foods, never freshly made and for the most part the kids make them themselves. She doesn't even wash herself as far as I can gather. Wears her makeup for days on end only removing it with a baby wipe before reapplying it if she has to go out the door somewhere. The woman spends all her time volunteering and overnights at her new boyfriend's place, often not coming home till midday or after it the next day.

My kids are living in filth and I don't know what to do about it. I could call social services but they'd end up in foster care as I don't have the accommodation to house them and the council have already told me that unless I'm the primary carer, they won't help me out. I could rent privately, but I have no references to even get a place, plus it'd wipe out my income and they would be living in the same level of poverty that they live in now. I'm living at home with my dad in a small 3 bed having had my house repossessed a number of years ago. I give my ex 25% of my salary every month to keep them going but she has a number of payday loans which doesn't help.

They're living almost 30 miles away too which means that if they come live with me they have to change schools... again, which happened when we broke up that long ago and it was hard for them. The eldest are coming into their own now and I don't want them to regress. The commute to bring them to school wouldn't bother me but it wouldn't work with my job (starting a new job next week after being made redundant a few weeks ago).

I'm just stuck. They love their mom and I do firmly believe that kids belong with their mothers if a relationship breaks down as they're far more nurturing but this is wrong. The conditions she forces them to live in is just wrong, which she freely acknowledges, but whenever I challenge her on it, she just blames the kids for not helping out when it comes to cleaning.

The final straw came yesterday when I complained that my youngest daughter's hair had not been brushed in about a week. She blamed the child for not coming to her when she told her to so that she could brush her hair. I sent the child away to get her hairbrush and what I found when I was brushing, bleugh, hair lice all over the place. It took me a half hour to brush the poor childs hair it was that knotted. I complained about the head lice and she said it was from other kids in school and she's trying her best to get rid of it, when I pointed out that it was because of the conditions she was making them live in because school's been out the past month, I was abused, berated attacked physically. There was no end. I brought the kids over to my place, instructed my youngest to have a shower and I treated her head lice. Hundreds of them, I'm not kidding.

I just don't know what to do. I told her she had a month to get the place in order or I was coming for the kids, she knows full well I haven't the abilty to do so, but I threatened her all the same, all she could do was attack, attack, attack. I'm stuck in a bind and it's killing me. I don't want to drag the kids through court cases or any of that crap as they'll end up hating me, they already hate me enough as it is coz of the way she talks about me to them (Case in point, yesterday when we were arguing,our daughter got very upset so I gave her a hug and apologised for fighting, telling her that it wasn't her fault and that it was all about me and mam. She then chimed in and said it was all about me). What am I supposed to do like? I can't win.

Somebody help me please because I'm at my wits end over this. Thanks

Rubberchikken

5 kids to rear isnt easy even with help so maybe shes overwhelmed.
I realise many rear thst many on their own and the kids and house are picture perfect but not everyone is capable of this or even able to attempt it.

You had a good relationship. Dont let that go. Also try looking for some positives instead of focusing on so many negatives.
Talk with her. See what compromises could be reached.

Sardonicat

You need to call social services immediately. Foster care would be better than where they are now. I'm speaking from experience here. Please, please please pick up the phone and call. Don't leave your kids in that situation. They won't thank you for doing nothing.

LegacyUser

If you really want the kids to stay with their mother, maybe you could consider paying weekly for someone to clean the house? It would be much cheaper than renting your own place for yourself and the five kids, paying for childcare etc.
As in, get someone to come in on a weekly basis to clean the house, wouldn't cost you more than 50 a week, and the house would be spotless. This would mean the mother would have more time on her hands to actually look after the kids, too.

jacknife

Sardonicat wrote: »

You need to call social services immediately. Foster care would be better than where they are now. I'm speaking from experience here. Please, please please pick up the phone and call. Don't leave your kids in that situation. They won't thank you for doing nothing.

Involving social services will make a bad situation worse, children in foster care have a greater chance of being abused and leaving with serious issues, giving children up for foster care they will be separated and the relationships destroyed, you will be forced into supervised access and if your circumstances change you will not be allowed get them back, it will become a battle between adults

contact your ex wife and offer to help, there is no such thing as a primary carer, its not a legal term, offer a co parenting plan, offer to help her, take the children out for a while

The two of you can solve this problem, work together for your children

Sardonicat

jacknife wrote: »

Sardonicat wrote: »

You need to call social services immediately. Foster care would be better than where they are now. I'm speaking from experience here. Please, please please pick up the phone and call. Don't leave your kids in that situation. They won't thank you for doing nothing.

Involving social services will make a bad situation worse, children in foster care have a greater chance of being abused and leaving with serious issues, giving children up for foster care they will be separated and the relationships destroyed, you will be forced into supervised access and if your circumstances change you will not be allowed get them back, it will become a battle between adults

contact your ex wife and offer to help, there is no such thing as a primary carer, its not a legal term, offer a co parenting plan, offer to help her, take the children out for a while

The two of you can solve this problem, work together for your children

With the greatest of respect, unless you grew up in circumstances similar to what the OP described, you don't know that it would make the situation worse. The children are already being abused. They are being neglected. The OP doesn't seem to know how to handle this himself so professional intervention is required. That doesn't have to mean foster care for anyone just some support and guidance and an eye being kept on things.

The fact that this woman us blaming her children for a hoard of rubbish and a little girl for having matted lice infested hair points to something very amiss. She may be suffering a mental health crisis. Maybe not. But either way she's not coping, the op doesn't know what to do so someone who does needs to be involved.

For what it's worth I'd have given ANYTHING to be removed from the squalor and misery of my home. I've been that child with the matted, licensed infested hair. My mother used to blame us too. Then go beserk if one of us tried to use the washing machine or turn on the hot water to clean ourselves up.
Get help op.

FishOnABike

From your description I would think there are signs of neglect.

OP you say "No marriage so no legal issues" do you have legal guardianship of your children?

You split 7 years ago so would not seem to be in a position to have met the necessary conditions for automatic guardianship established under certain provisions of The Children and Family Relationships Act 2015.

Unfortunately unless you have been granted guardianship by the court, you are completely reliant on the good will of your ex in relation to anything to do with your children. Effectively you have no more rights than a complete stranger.

If you are concerned for your children's welfare you should consider if you should apply to the district court for guardianship. Without guardianship you have no say in your children's welfare if you feel you need to take further steps for their welfare.

Foweva Awone

Headlice are not caused by dirty conditions.

No authority is going to intervene over issues like them eating ready meals rather than homemade food - important thing is that they're being fed.

The_Conductor

FishOnABike wrote: »

OP you say "No marriage so no legal issues" do you have legal guardianship of your children?

+1
Its not clear what exactly the position is- or indeed, just what the outcome is that the OP is seeking.

The best advice I could give the OP- is to make an appointment with a family law solicitor- and see what their rights and obligations are.

I've only two kids here- and I don't have have refuse scattered around the place- but by god its a mess that I'd not invite anyone in to see.

The mother has 5 kids- it could very well simply be the case that she is overwhelmed- notwithstanding the fact that some of the kids are older and capable of looking after themselves to a large extent.

I'm not really sure what outcome the OP is seeking- or why they imagine that the fact that they're not married has much bearing on, well, on anything- they are the father to five children- and married or otherwise, have obligations towards the five children- its all well and good to tear strips off the mother- but she is probably doing her best, perhaps not particularly well, but her best, nonetheless.

Fakediamond

Hi OP,

I also think you should make a report to Tusla. It’s honestly unlikely they’ll be put into foster care as places are very limited and children are generally only removed in the most extreme cases. Having said that, your children are being neglected and suffering as a result and that needs to change. I’m surprised that the school hasn’t made a report already.

You’re ex may be suffering from mental health or addiction issues and could be helped with those. Tusla have this system called Meitheal, which is where support agencies come together to put a support plan in place for the family. Your ex would have to agree to participate though or it won’t work. An example would be where a family support centre would help the mam to get the house and kids sorted out and help to organise a schedule for them. Do your kids get to see a doctor or dentist as needed? She may need help scheduling their appointments. Five kids is a lot to handle and she may feel hopeless and overwhelmed.

You would also be involved as part of the support mechanism, for example, instead of handing over money, maybe you could do the weekly grocery shop, pay some bills etc. It’s about providing concrete and practical support.

Please don’t worry that social workers will swoop in and grab your children, the system is way too overburdened for that to happen.,

Sardonicat

Foweva Awone wrote: »

Headlice are not caused by dirty conditions.

No authority is going to intervene over issues like them eating ready meals rather than homemade food - important thing is that they're being fed.

If the OP is to be believed the kids are living in the midst of a rubbish hoard. Head lice are not caused by dirt but they do need to be treated. Not treating them is neglect.

If you feel so strongly you should ask would she let you move it to help for an agreed period of time. If not you yourself should take over as their main carer and let them live with you. You say they would be in poverty with you also but poverty is not the issue you are outlining here neglect is. And that is neglect from the mother and yourself not just the mother. You are their parent also so I cannot see your reluctance to help in a practical hands on way.

The_Conductor

Sardonicat wrote: »

If the OP is to be believed the kids are living in the midst of a rubbish hoard. Head lice are not caused by dirt but they do need to be treated. Not treating them is neglect.

+1
Its relatively easy to treat headlice- and they are endemic in schools, esp among girls (as girls tend to huddle and play in groups far more than boys- which gives headlice the all important transmission vector).
Also- ironically- headlice prefer clean hair.
Not treating headlice- is neglect- and I don't see how or why the father couldn't spend a few hours doing the treatments on a Saturday or whenever he has custody- and he could also give the children some of the nit combs and show them how to use them. Obviously- the children's bed linen etc- should be properly laundered- to ensure they're not reinfecting themselves. But- treatment is fairly straightforward- its not difficult, and the father doing nothing is neglect on the part of the father- as much as leaving it untreated by the mother is.......

Ghekko

Make sure you check all kids hair as no doubt the others will have lice too. As for the state of the house, unless your ex is working full time, she should be able to keep on top of things with the help of the kids. They are all old enough to be able to hoover, wash dishes, put on a wash, keep their bedrooms tidy etc and the older ones could help cook. Sounds like she is in a rut and just can't be bothered. You could go over and insist that you all chip in for a day and get the place clean and tidy again - she may be better able to keep it that way then. Her hygiene issues are her own problem but you need to educate your kids about their own personal hygiene so they don't end up like her, thinking it's ok not to wash. You could involve their public health nurse if you don't want to report to social services. They can be very helpful and give advice.

Sardonicat

I agree. Hence why I think Tusla should be involved and supports, advice etc put in place. We don't know he didn't treat the lice either.

Ghekko

Sardonicat wrote: »

I agree. Hence why I think Tusla should be involved and supports, advice etc put in place. We don't know he didn't treat the lice either.

It was just that he mentioned treating that one child in his post. Hopefully the other kids were checked too. The mother could also have them. The worry is that if one person is left with them they'll pass them on again. Hopefully they're all clear though.

pwurple

So, there are 7 people in this family... 5 kids and two adults. You give 25% of your salary to support your 5 children and their mother.... most of which goes out the door on a loan.
and you keep the remaining 75% for yourself... 

You couldn't possibly mind then, because that's a woman's job apparently.

Then, you go over and read the riot act about the house being messy and there not being homemade meals.

Are you for real?

KevRossi

You need to start being more active there.

Go to the house and do one day of a major deep clean with the kids. Get a skip or skip bags if needed.

Expect to steam clean carpets, wood floors and tiles. Throw out any stained or dirty furniture and bedding.

From then on go to the house twice or three times a week at an agreed time and clean it with the kids. Give each one of them chores and responsibilities. Encourage them to get involved, try not to berate (not easy).

Consider a cleaner in the long run if this doesn't work.

Food: Do the food and household shopping yourself. All of it.
Get the kids involved in preparing food. Show them how to make simple but healthy food. Make batches of lunches and dinners twice a week and store in the fridge or freeze it. Give one of the eldest the responsibility of looking after this.

Make sure there's plenty of stuff to snack on like fruit in the house.

Its possible that your ex is having a form of depression. Or she grew up in a messy house herself. But its up to you to eduacte your kids on cleanliness and diet.

Kids get lice. Ask any national school teacher. I'd play it by ear for a while, but I'd consider getting all of them new bedsheets, pillows and duvets. Start with the youngest and work your way up.

Encourage your ex to go on a visit to her GP before you involve social services. They are easier to talk to for a lot of people.

wiggle16

pwurple wrote: »

So, there are 7 people in this family... 5 kids and two adults. You give 25% of your salary to support your 5 children and their mother.... most of which goes out the door on a loan. and you keep the remaining 75% for yourself... You couldn't possibly mind then, because that's a woman's job apparently. Then, you go over and read the riot act about the house being messy and there not being homemade meals.

Are you for real?

Seriously? Are you for real? You don't even know how much the OP earns, so you don't know what 25% of his income is. So how are you to judge what proportion he keeps for himself? If he's on a low wage, 25% may be all he can give.
I actually cannot get over some of the reactions to the OP here in this thread - some responses here are a disgrace.

- Hiring a cleaner - I realise this was well intentioned but it's a purely cosmetic fix, and doesn't address any other issues.
-More chance of abuse in foster care - What??? They're already neglected!
- Dismissing the presence of headlice - it's not that they are a sign of neglect, it's that the mother didn't even know the child had an infestation.

And above all, attacking the OP??

If anyone bothered to read the OP you'd see that this is not an acceptable situation for children to live in:
The children are dirty - the mother hadn't even brushed her child's hair to know she had an infestation. [And yes, lice prefer clean hair, but they will live on any head of hair. It's just more to their liking if it's clean. Being unwashed will not discourage lice].
There is rubbish all over the house.
The children are making their own meals and aren't being fed properly because they're subsisting on ready-meals.
The children have lice.
The mother is often absent from the home, and blames the kids for all of the above.

The seeming tendency to jump to the mother's support here is misplaced. Simply stating that she is overwhelmed is not a solution. Only she can fix how she deals with her circumstances, it's not the OP's responsibility - if she has issues that are causing this then by all means he should help her to address them, but he cannot let his children live like this for the sake of not rocking the boat with their mother. The OP's responsibility is to his children and if she is not attending to their needs then her feelings become secondary. She is neglecting her children and if he allows that to happen he becomes a party to their neglect.

OP, it goes without saying, you have to put your children's welfare first, even if that means becoming the bad guy in their eyes for a time. Their mother is not looking after them. If you are not in position to take care of them yourself, then you need to involve people who can. I would strongly urge you to talk to Tusla. Even if the children are not removed from the home, it might give her enough of a wake up call to clean up her act.

You need to do what's best for them. I know you are afraid of what will happen if you take a more forceful approach, but right now your children are being let down by their mother and you need to step in and take charge. If you have to move and rent and commute to take them in, then that's what you need to do - as another has said, poverty is not the same as neglect.
If you are unable to do that and it is not realistic, then you need to involve Tusla. This will get worse before it gets better, admittedly. You have been put in a position where you are left making hard decisions, and that isn't fair, but unfortunately you are going to have to make them. I might give her one more chance to clean up her act (tell her you're taking it further if after one week the situation has not improved, etc) but then it's time to get social services involved - she's blaming the kids when her fault is pointed out to her so I really doubt she will even try, tbh.

I would second the advice to speak to a family law solicitor, at least to find out your position and options. The idea that you are no closer to them in the eyes of the law than a stranger is pseudo-legal nonsense which I am not going to elaborate upon here, instead you should speak to a solicitor and get some real advice.

Best of luck OP.

KevRossi

I meant to say regarding food.... With 5 kids you'll probably find at least one who has a genuine interest in cooking, so this might help.

If you're not handy in the kitchen yourself then consider hiring someone to cook for the kids and teach them. A Home Economics teacher would be a possible start at the beginning, but preferably not one they know.

Get them involved from the beginning. Get them to pick a couple of days a week what they want to eat.

Pizza is very easy to make from scratch, you can make a large batch of dough, portion it up and freeze it. Ingredients can all be fresh and healthy. Properly made its not junk food.

Curries are also easy, can be made with very fresh veg and freeze very well. Salads are very diverse and fruit salad makes a good dessert.

You can make healthy burgers and chips. Par boil the chipped spuds and finish them off under the grill. Use a good mix of veg like onions in the burger meat and top it with plenty of salad.

Try to get to know a good green grocer. Buying in bulk will pay off with them in the future.

You will probably meet some resistance from the kids initially, so consider introducing this bit by bit over a month.

tomwaits48

pwurple wrote: »

So, there are 7 people in this family... 5 kids and two adults. You give 25% of your salary to support your 5 children and their mother.... most of which goes out the door on a loan.
and you keep the remaining 75% for yourself... 

You couldn't possibly mind then, because that's a woman's job apparently.

Then, you go over and read the riot act about the house being messy and there not being homemade meals.

Are you for real?

That’s an outrageous interpretation of the opening post.

KevRossi

Also, teach them to separate and recycle waste as it will save a lot, especially for the first big clean. They'll probably have learnt this in school. Time to put it into practice!

Also arrange to meet the ex when the kids are not there. Outline what you're going to do and if she's not on board, then fair enough. Try to get her to agree to the plan even if she wants no part in it.

vectorvictor

Sardonicat wrote: »

I agree. Hence why I think Tusla should be involved and supports, advice etc put in place. We don't know he didn't treat the lice either.

Agree here. These aren't the big bad wolves they are somehow made out to be. They operate on a child first basis. They don't care about you and your ex's spats and offer a chance for the kids to get what's best. The result may hurt you , your ex or both but it will be the best result for the kids.

I can honestly say that while your parenting relationship will be most likely f****d after the process, the kids will come out on top

LegacyUser

So, thanks to everybody for their feedback. Some of it is really useful, some I'm taking with a pinch of salt to be honest.

Had a productive conversation with her earlier. They're all going to get the house in order over the next week and I'll go over one or 2 mornings during the week to clear out the collection and take it to recycling/landfill. I'm going to buy some paint so that the walls can be painted once they're cleaned and I'm also giving her some of my redundancy settlement to clear off one or 2 of those loans.

The worst thing about this is that she's not a terrible person and is genuinely good hearted, she's just damaged. She didn't have the greatest upbringing, had a mother who did basically the same to them as she is doing to ours. She fully acknowledges that what she is doing is not good enough but is not making any effort to correct her behaviour.

My issues are with the state of the house and the general cleanliness of the kids. She even let our youngest son go for his First Holy Communion without getting a wash. I arrived at the church and the dirt on the child's hands. I almost caused a scene.

The good thing is that we now have a plan in place. This is something which reared it's ugly head a couple years ago aswell, so it's not a new situation. I just hope that she now puts her words into action.

I've told her that I'll take the kids off her if she doesn't. It's a bluff for now considering my circumstances, but if she doesn't I'll definitely be seeking legal advice. The last thing I want is a protracted legal with the mother of my children. They want to stay with her, but I know they'd be better off in my care. I just wish I had the resources to do it now as opposed to later.

Neyite

It's pretty obvious that your ex isn't coping. It could be mental health issues or it could just be neglect. But the bottom line is that your children are suffering from this.

I think if I were you, I'd be asking if I could move in to help co-parent, especially if you had been fairly amicable. That way, you can help get the children into a routine, instigate a deep clean and start to cook healthy meals. And if your ex is experiencing mental health difficulties you might be able to encourage her to get help.

You could enquire then once you have the place in decent order for social service supports for when you move back out and once you have a better idea of what kind of help is required.

GingerLily

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you feel so strongly you should ask would she let you move it to help for an agreed period of time. If not you yourself should take over as their main carer and let them live with you. You say they would be in poverty with you also but poverty is not the issue you are outlining here neglect is. And that is neglect from the mother and yourself not just the mother. You are their parent also so I cannot see your reluctance to help in a practical hands on way.

Or could you spend evenings with them mid week? Help with meals and making sure the kids are bathed etc. It could help them get a routine back and also give you piece of mind that they're being looked after okay!

Neyite

The youngest is 9 and should be able to shower by themselves so all it might take is for you to pop in on your way home from work with groceries, sort /help with dinner, get the evening bedtime /shower routine going and do dishes it would still be a massive help and would also motivate the kids to do their part such as organising their uniforms, checking their homework and making their lunches and then go home to where you live with your dad.

Once it's in a routine for a month or so then a timetabled schedule on the kitchen wall might be all the prompting they need.

But please try not to threaten your ex, that's going to be worrying and stressful for the kids and you yourself say that she is good hearted and loves them so it's not her doing it because she doesn't care.

You expect your ex to look after your 5 children, you pay 25‰ of your income towards them. How much would you pay if you were still together?
Maybe your kids, the older ones in particular, do need to start doing something around the house?
Bit of cleaning & cooking? It's good for them to know what goes into running a house anyway, it will stand to them when they leave home.

You live with your father in a 3 bed house, plenty of room for a couple of kids if need be.
You expect her to do everything, but you just see the kids for a few hours a week? Time for you to stop making excuses &do something, either help out in their home, teach your children to help out, or bring some of them to live with you.
All I see here is excuse & laying blame with someone else. Why would you get Tulsa or social services involved? You are their father, do it yourself.

Flippyfloppy

Do you ever take/have the kids for the weekend or anything -when you say weekly visits are they sleepovers or visits?

Who minds them when she overnights at her partners?

Sardonicat

bubblypop wrote: »

You expect your ex to look after your 5 children, you pay 25‰ of your income towards them. How much would you pay if you were still together?
Maybe your kids, the older ones in particular, do need to start doing something around the house?
Bit of cleaning & cooking? It's good for them to know what goes into running a house anyway, it will stand to them when they leave home.

You live with your father in a 3 bed house, plenty of room for a couple of kids if need be.
You expect her to do everything, but you just see the kids for a few hours a week? Time for you to stop making excuses &do something, either help out in their home, teach your children to help out, or bring some of them to live with you.
All I see here is excuse & laying blame with someone else. Why would you get Tulsa or social services involved? You are their father, do it yourself.

Did you read the OP?

He lives 30 miles away from them.

He wants to do it himself but doesn't know how to go about it. He's afraid he won't be "allowed" to have them due to his living with his Father. He's worried he won't be able to find a place to live near by.

The rubbish is not even being thrown out of the house. The older kids obviously know how to do that. The fact that they are not implies something is very very wrong. The woman has stopped washing herself. Do you think the OP should pop round after work and give her a bath too?
We aren't talking about a topsy turvy house that needs a bit of tidying. The OP describes squalor.

He's not making excuses, he just doesn't know how to go about doing what needs to be done.

Going in and organising a deep clean and setting up a rota will solve this problem for about 1 week. Been there, seen that done that. I guarantee you there's more to this than being overwhelmed and those kids are suffering.

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

Did you read the OP?

He lives 30 miles away from them.

He wants to do it himself but doesn't know how to go about it. He's afraid he won't be "allowed" to have them due to his living with his Father. He's worried he won't be able to find a place to live near by.

The rubbish is not even being thrown out of the house. The older kids obviously know how to do that. The fact that they are not implies something is very very wrong. The woman has stopped washing herself. Do you think the OP should pop round after work and give her a bath too?
We aren't talking about a topsy turvy house that needs a bit of tidying. The OP describes squalor.

He's not making excuses, he just doesn't know how to go about doing what needs to be done.

Going in and organising a deep clean and setting up a rota will solve this problem for about 1 week. Been there, seen that done that. I guarantee you there's more to this than being overwhelmed and those kids are suffering.

He has 5 children, time he learned how to do whatever need to be done to look after his own children.