Building Regulations when converting an attic as an accessible useable attic storage

Mutley2009

Hi All,

I have found the associated regs which relate to the conversion of an attic into habitable space but where can I find the regs which govern a conversion which will be designated "attic storage space"

Many thanks!

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Hi All,

I have found the associated regs which relate to the conversion of an attic into habitable space but where can I find the regs which govern a conversion which will be designated "attic storage space"

Many thanks!

The building regulations generally do not govern this. It’s an additional accessible storey.

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

The building regulations generally do not govern this. It’s an additional accessible storey.

Thanks for your reply. I am being pushed to provide a Cert of Compliance for said space (house is sake agreed) The purchasers surveyor tells us is not compliant - as an attic storage space.

We cannot provide such a cert. and I can’t find the regs which its not meeting. We feel all we can do now is return it to its original form - which seems ridiculous

lawred2

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply. I am being pushed to provide a Cert of Compliance for said space (house is sake agreed) The purchasers surveyor tells us is not compliant - as an attic storage space.

We cannot provide such a cert. and I can’t find the regs which its not meeting. We feel all we can do now is return it to its original form - which seems ridiculous

Does it have a fixed stairs? What have you been using it as?

listermint

Can you Describe it or add photos

Mutley2009

yes, it has a fixed stairs, 2 velux, completed in 2011. We are using it as a bedroom - but selling it as attic storage.
The whole sale is in jeopardy now, and I don't know what to do.

Mutley2009

Photos attached

lawred2

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Photos attached

did whomever did the work not provide for certification?

My advice would be to solicit the services of an appropriate professional and get them to check it for compliance... They can provide a required cert.

Even having said that - if you're in Dublin I'd be surprised if it caused a sale to fall through.

sydthebeat

Mutley2009 wrote: »

yes, it has a fixed stairs, 2 velux, completed in 2011. We are using it as a bedroom - but selling it as attic storage.
The whole sale is in jeopardy now, and I don't know what to do.

on review of this i think the certifier is dead right.

it has heating, it has electric fixtures, it has a fixed stairs, its painted up, proper doors etc. it even has a bed in it.

why would the certifier put his professional reputation on the line and sign it off as something it obviously isnt.

Mutley2009

My husband is a contractor and he did the work, we were of the understanding that as it was not habitable space then it did need not comply with building regs.

We cannot get an engineer to say it is compliant, all they will say is that it is:
The attic storage room has been constructed in a manner fit for purpose as a “domestic construction roof space storage (0.75kN/sqm)” area.
And that as the subject works do not change the use of the attic area as originally constructed, it is not a habitable space and intended for storage only - that the original Cert. of compliance issued when the house was constructed is the one to refer to.

My solicitor tells me that in order to proceed the purchasers solicitor needs to qualify the title with the lending institute.
Will a bank lend on that basis (house is in Dublin)

Mutley2009

sydthebeat wrote: »

on review of this i think the certifier is dead right.

it has heating, it has electric fixtures, it has a fixed stairs, its painted up, proper doors etc. it even has a bed in it.

why would the certifier put his professional reputation on the line and sign it off as something it obviously isnt.

so should we simply return the space to the traditional attic lay out - then would it comply? would we need to take out everything - stairs, velux, walls, flooring?

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

My husband is a contractor and he did the work, we were of the understanding that as it was not habitable space then it did need not comply with building regs.

We cannot get an engineer to say it is compliant, all they will say is that it is:
The attic storage room has been constructed in a manner fit for purpose as a “domestic construction roof space storage (0.75kN/sqm)” area.
And that as the subject works do not change the use of the attic area as originally constructed, it is not a habitable space and intended for storage only - that the original Cert. of compliance issued when the house was constructed is the one to refer to.

My solicitor tells me that in order to proceed the purchasers solicitor needs to qualify the title with the lending institute.
Will a bank lend on that basis (house is in Dublin)

All of this is irrelevant, you have an additional storey added onto your property.
For starters I can see no fire door at loft space, no retrofitted self closers at first floor (ground floor also required).
The velux escape heights are too high.
Have you got interlinked smoke detection?

It looks well finished from the pics, but nobody knows what's underneath and this is why I beg people to get certification at the time of construction.

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

All of this is irrelevant, you have an additional storey added onto your property.
For starters I can see no fire door at loft space, no retrofitted self closers at first floor (ground floor also required).
The velux escape heights are too high.
Have you got interlinked smoke detection?

It looks well finished from the pics, but nobody knows what's underneath and this is why I beg people to get certification at the time of construction.

so it is non compliant - making it compliant is cost prohibitive.

What changes could I make to nullify the "you have an additional storey added onto your property"?

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

so it is non compliant - making it compliant is cost prohibitive.

What changes could I make to nullify the "you have an additional storey added onto your property"?

Removed the fixed stairs and replace with a pop down stira or similar.
Remove the radiator.

sydthebeat

Mutley2009 wrote: »

so should we simply return the space to the traditional attic lay out - then would it comply? would we need to take out everything - stairs, velux, walls, flooring?

no.

you cant say that it isnt a habitable room.... and therefore doesnt have to be habitable compliant... and then create and use it as a habitable space.

so you either make it habitable compliant as best as you can... or you find a buyer whos is either happy to accept it as it is..... and instruct their solicitor to accept.

Mutley2009

sydthebeat wrote: »

no.

you cant say that it isnt a habitable room.... and therefore doesnt have to be habitable compliant... and then create and use it as a habitable space.

so you either make it habitable compliant as best as you can... or you find a buyer whos is either happy to accept it as it is..... and instruct their solicitor to accept.

I honestly don't know where the buyer stands on this issue, my solicitor told me that even if they wanted to proceed that their solicitor would be "bordering on negligent" if he didn't inform the lender the requirement to qualify the title.

A guy in work had the same issue when buying and he decided to proceed and there was nothing mentioned on the title.

Making the space habitable is not an option, there would be far too much work involved.

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

Removed the fixed stairs and replace with a pop down stira or similar.
Remove the radiator.

wow that seems very simple, we could definitely do that. I wonder if we did as above, could we get a cert. of compliance for the "attic storage space"?

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

wow that seems very simple, we could definitely do that. I wonder if we did as above, could we get a cert. of compliance for the "attic storage space"?

Yes, you would need to fill in where the existing stairs is, plaster and paint.
dispose of stairs or similar.

Significant cost associated with this also.

I still don't see why it cannot be certified with lessor works done (such as fire door and self closers and alarm) and removal of the bed and maybe fill the space with storage boxes.

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

Yes, you would need to fill in where the existing stairs is, plaster and paint.
dispose of stairs or similar.

Significant cost associated with this also.

I still don't see why it cannot be certified with lessor works done (such as fire door and self closers and alarm) and removal of the bed and maybe fill the space with storage boxes.

I think the lack of RSJ is the main breach of compliance .... so remedying the minor works would not get this over the line.

Lets say we remove stairs & rad, replace with Stira fill and plaster. Could the buyer's engineer come back and say it's still not compliant?

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

I think the lack of RSJ is the main breach of compliance .... so remedying the minor works would not get this over the line.

The lack of RSJ shouldn't hinder it unless the structure was not inspected and designed properly.
My attic conversion was done using timber alone but I did have an Engineer on site and certification provided.

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Lets say we remove stairs & rad, replace with Stira fill and plaster. Could the buyer's engineer come back and say it's still not compliant?

Nobody can say, but its not the buyers Engineer that has to say its non compliant. You have to provide the Cert to the buyers solicitor. If you can get the sign off, then you provide this to the other side. They will either accept it or not, either way you sell or place it back on the market.

Where is the house located?

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

The lack of RSJ shouldn't hinder it unless the structure was not inspected and designed properly.
My attic conversion was done using timber alone but I did have an Engineer on site and certification provided.



Nobody can say, but its not the buyers Engineer that has to say its non compliant. You have to provide the Cert to the buyers solicitor. If you can get the sign off, then you provide this to the other side. They will either accept it or not, either way you sell or place it back on the market.

Where is the house located?

House is in Swords. Thr current wooden joists and bracing are only suitable for attic loading. So even if we complete the works above we run the risk of non sign off or sign off and buyers solicitor rejecting.

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

House is in Swords. Thr current wooden joists and bracing are only suitable for attic loading. So even if we complete the works above we run the risk of non sign off or sign off and buyers solicitor rejecting.

Ok, sorry, so you converted the attic and still used the same (most likely 4 inch) joists that were there during its original construction?

lawred2

I'd be surprised if the buyer would be happy with the stairs being ripped out...

If they didn't want to buy a house with the attic room - they wouldn't have got to the point of being sale agreed.

Rip out the stairs and you've likely reduced the appeal to the buyer.

Gumbo

lawred2 wrote: »

I'd be surprised if the buyer would be happy with the stairs being ripped out...

If they didn't want to buy a house with the attic room - they wouldn't have got to the point of being sale agreed.

Rip out the stairs and you've likely reduced the appeal to the buyer.

And reduced the price significantly.

lawred2

Mutley2009 wrote: »

House is in Swords. Thr current wooden joists and bracing are only suitable for attic loading. So even if we complete the works above we run the risk of non sign off or sign off and buyers solicitor rejecting.

Why did your husband do that? You say he's a contractor so there are no excuses for going up into the attic without appropriate structural support.

It's not like he can claim to have been hoodwinked.

Having said that.. I recognize that's of no help to you now obviously. Don't mean to add insult to injury so to speak.

lawred2

kceire wrote: »

And reduced the price significantly.

that too

however now that I read that it doesn't have the necessary structural supports - there probably is no other option short of redoing the attic with the correct supports...

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

Ok, sorry, so you converted the attic and still used the same (most likely 4 inch) joists that were there during its original construction?

Correct

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Correct

OK, different story now.

You need to remove every trace of the attic conversion in my opinion.
Basically return to standard.

You could maybe leave the flooring up there to provide storage but I'd clearly mark somewhere to illustrate the existing ceiling joists are in place.

Did your husband cut through a truss roof also?

I'm very surprised by your husbands actions here, as a contractor.
Building Regulations still apply, as you also have ventilation requirements.

Either way, hindsight is great and don't mean to rub salt into the wounds so don't hate your husband, just force him to make dinner for the rest of his life

Have you had another engineer out to see what remedial works could be done to make it structurally sound and therefore certified as storage?

Mutley2009

kceire wrote: »

OK, different story now.

You need to remove every trace of the attic conversion in my opinion.
Basically return to standard.

You could maybe leave the flooring up there to provide storage but I'd clearly mark somewhere to illustrate the existing ceiling joists are in place.

Did your husband cut through a truss roof also?

I'm very surprised by your husbands actions here, as a contractor.
Building Regulations still apply, as you also have ventilation requirements.

Either way, hindsight is great and don't mean to rub salt into the wounds so don't hate your husband, just force him to make dinner for the rest of his life

Have you had another engineer out to see what remedial works could be done to make it structurally sound and therefore certified as storage?

Returning it to standard would most likely but off the buyer. But would safeguard a smooth sale to another buyer.

I am waiting for direction from our Engineer re works to make it compliant as storage. I am guessing RSJ & new floor, wired smoke alarms & door closers, remove rad?

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Returning it to standard would most likely but off the buyer. But would safeguard a smooth sale to another buyer.

I am waiting for direction from our Engineer re works to make it compliant as storage. I am guessing RSJ & new floor, wired smoke alarms & door closers, remove rad?

Yep, something along those lines.

Mutley2009

Thanks everyone for your input on this.

Would any of you have an opinion on the following statement "If there are no external changes to the roof requiring a Section 34 permission, the house owner can seek a Section 5 Exempted Development declaration from FCC"

sydthebeat

Mutley2009 wrote: »

Thanks everyone for your input on this.

Would any of you have an opinion on the following statement "If there are no external changes to the roof requiring a Section 34 permission, the house owner can seek a Section 5 Exempted Development declaration from FCC"

a SECTION 5 DECLARATION is pertinent to being exempt from planning permission, not building regulations.

who offered you this advice?

Mutley2009

sydthebeat wrote: »

a SECTION 5 DECLARATION is pertinent to being exempt from planning permission, not building regulations.

who offered you this advice?

A Planner from the county council

Mutley2009

sydthebeat wrote: »

a SECTION 5 DECLARATION is pertinent to being exempt from planning permission, not building regulations.

who offered you this advice?

So Exempted Development's are still subject to building regulations?

sydthebeat

Mutley2009 wrote: »

So Exempted Development's are still subject to building regulations?

yes.

the only developments which are exempt from Building Regulations are listed here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/497/made/en/print#sched3

attic conversions are absolutely not exempt from 'Building regulations'... but may be considered exempt from 'planning regulations'.

Gumbo

Mutley2009 wrote: »

So Exempted Development's are still subject to building regulations?

Yes 100%!

You need professional advice here.