Personal injury awards increase by 48% in 3 years.....

Liam McPoyle

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boards Claims Related Threads have risen by 47% over the same period. A strange correlation.

Wheeliebin30

Strange I read today this report shows claims are a tiny reason for insurance increases.

This will all come out soon, once the information of the raids that took place a few weeks ago comes out.

tomwaterford

[quote="Rod

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

[/quote]
How is this

blueser

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

And is the insurance industry doing anything re. putting pressure on the legal and judicial systems to rein back in some of these excessive claims and fees? Lobbying government, perhaps? I'm 55 in december, I drive a "sensible" car (a 132 Focus, 1.6 diesel) and I have 10 years claim free driving. No penalty points. And I'm the only person on the policy. 3 years ago I was paying €350 fully comp; this year (february), I paid €570. That's a 63% increase.

Wheeliebin30

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motor-insurance-hikes-not-reflected-in-claims-data-as-payouts-have-not-risen-significantly-421063.html


"Motor insurance hikes not reflected in claims data as payouts have not risen significantly"

nullzero

*Trips over thread*

"there's a claim in this".

Liam McPoyle

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/motor-insurance-hikes-not-reflected-in-claims-data-as-payouts-have-not-risen-significantly-421063.html


"Motor insurance hikes not reflected in claims data as payouts have not risen significantly"

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/90936e26-6c01-11e7-bbfb-4556e0d95963

Payouts for claims were at record levels last year.

Anything else?

Liam McPoyle

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Strange I read today this report shows claims are a tiny reason for insurance increases.

This will all come out soon, once the information of the raids that took place a few weeks ago comes out.

"Raids" makes for good headlines.

What occurred is not what people think occurred.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Rod Munch wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/90936e26-6c01-11e7-bbfb-4556e0d95963

Payouts for claims were at record levels last year.

Anything else?

Nobodies doubting that increasing claims are leading to rising premiums. It's just the cosy arrangement between the government, the legal profession and the medical profession and the motor industry, where nobody wants to upset the gravy train, so they come up with newer ways to screw the ordinary Joe Soap. Why not push for legislation to cap awards for injuries? Nah, let's just stick a loading on ten year old cars instead, make them all buy new ones, sure they won't wanna crash those.

Rumpy Pumpy

Making a spurious personal injury claim is considered a rite of passage for a certain group of people who live here in Ireland.

Liam McPoyle

tomwaterford wrote: »

How is this

What do you mean?

As in how can legal costs be up tp 40%?

Depending on the type of claim it can take longer to get a better over view of what ever injuries occurred. It can be dragged through the various levels of the courts.

Longer length of time to settle claims = more billable hours for the claimants solicitor and for the solicitors representing the insurer so if the insurer ends up paying a claim they have to pay the associated legal fees as they have been held liable.

The injuries board was set up SPECIFICALLY to reduce legal fees but has not been overly successful as something in the region of 90% of injuries board claims are represented by solicitors.

Liam McPoyle

blueser wrote: »

And is the insurance industry doing anything re. putting pressure on the legal and judicial systems to rein back in some of these excessive claims and fees? Lobbying government, perhaps? I'm 55 in december, I drive a "sensible" car (a 132 Focus, 1.6 diesel) and I have 10 years claim free driving. No penalty points. And I'm the only person on the policy. 3 years ago I was paying €350 fully comp; this year (february), I paid €570. That's a 63% increase.

Tbh €350 is too low for anyone to be paying for a comp policy in this country. If the average premium over the last number of years was about €500 for drivers with a similar profile to yourself then we would not be seeing the massive spikes we have had.

As for what's being done, not enough imo.

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

2forjoy

Can the OP who works in the industry talk to us about the extremely high wages paid to Insurance staff. Takk about the bonus payments paid to staff.
Talk about the high cost for exams /training for staff and the increases in remuneration for staff after they pass these exams .

Special Circumstances

Kevin Thompson, chief executive Insurance Ireland:

"Higher payouts
In addition, the average cost of claim was up approximately 8 per cent in private motor and approximately 27 per cent in public liability from 2012 to 2014. This means more claims and higher payouts; a routine whiplash case settles for €15,000 in Ireland, and €5,000 in the UK.
Of course, only a minority of such claims end up in court. For those that do, legal costs account for 60 per cent of compensation, according to the Injuries Board. This is especially costly as the average Circuit Court awards were up 14 per cent in 2014. Most claims are straightforward with no dispute over fault."


is this true?

How many claims are actually recorded in any transparent way?

How many never go through the injuries board?

How many never go to court?

Where are all the facts and figures?

Special Circumstances

2forjoy wrote: »

Can the OP who works in the industry talk to us about the extremely high wages paid to Insurance staff. Takk about the bonus payments paid to staff.
Talk about the high cost for exams /training for staff and the increases in remuneration for staff after they pass these exams .

Bonuses and bad investments have ZERO to do with their profits.

Liam McPoyle

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

Nobodies doubting that increasing claims are leading to rising premiums. It's just the cosy arrangement between the government, the legal profession and the medical profession and the motor industry, where nobody wants to upset the gravy train, so they come up with newer ways to screw the ordinary Joe Soap. Why not push for legislation to cap awards for injuries? Nah, let's just stick a loading on ten year old cars instead, make them all buy new ones, sure they won't wanna crash those.

You can't cap awards really though because for those cases that are genuine the injured party could have life changing injuries due to the actions of someone else.

What I would like to see is a more common sense approach. For example, if one car bumps another in slow moving traffic or in a car park the chances of an injury occurring is miniscule all things considered. Nuisance claims like that should be capped at a couple of k.

One thing that I firmly believe would help would be to cap legal fees.

If there was a limit of say €1k fees payable for a whiplash / soft tissue damage claim then I guarantee alot of them would be settled alot cheaper. Claims of that nature make up something like 70% of all claims. Average payout is around €15k. Stick another 4 or 5 k legal fees on top of that, never mind medical expenses, loss of earnings etc. All of a sudden the €15k settlement has increased to near €25k.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Rod Munch wrote: »

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

The turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas though. Yeah higher payouts equal higher premiums, but motor insurance is a legal requirement anyway, so people will pay what it costs, and claims will level themselves off. More claims equals more work for solicitors and doctors.

It's admirable that you try and defend your employer and the industry in general, but if you'd take a step back and realise that there's vested interests in keeping this thing going, and that the punters are just an easy target.

_Brian

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

Legal fees can account for up to 40% additional costs on top of the actual settlement fee.

Legal fees increased by 10% in the 3 years to 2016.

So perhaps myself and a couple of other boardsies that actually work in the industry have been correct in alot of what we have been saying and that it's not simply a case of insurers charging what ever they want.

Two things are obvious to even the most myopic of individuals.

Claims in Ireland are at epidemic levels.

Significant sections of the legal fraternity prolong and facilitate claims and higher awards and are directly responsible for the increases in YOUR premiums.

Having being involved in a long painstaking case for an award myself I feel the truth lies somewhere between people being gouged by fraudulent claimants, insurance companies and legal teams.
My experience is that neither the insurance companies nor legal teams have much moral ground to be publicly blaming the other.

Fraudulent claimants need to be prosecuted, not just have cases struck out.

SPDUB

Rod Munch wrote: »

"Raids" makes for good headlines.

What occurred is not what people think occurred.

So they had time to shred the more interesting files

And if you don't want me to get that impression then don't post something so vague

beauf

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Kevin Thompson, chief executive Insurance Ireland:

"Higher payouts
In addition, the average cost of claim was up approximately 8 per cent in private motor and approximately 27 per cent in public liability from 2012 to 2014. This means more claims and higher payouts; a routine whiplash case settles for €15,000 in Ireland, and €5,000 in the UK.
Of course, only a minority of such claims end up in court. For those that do, legal costs account for 60 per cent of compensation, according to the Injuries Board. This is especially costly as the average Circuit Court awards were up 14 per cent in 2014. Most claims are straightforward with no dispute over fault."


is this true?

How many claims are actually recorded in any transparent way?

How many never go through the injuries board?

How many never go to court?

Where are all the facts and figures?

Exactly.

There is no context to this report.

Every other day there is a report of some crazy award to someone with a history of previous awards. Occasionally we see some scam exposed, but no penalty for a fraudulent claim.

B.A._Baracus

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

Special Circumstances

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

They have stats to back up ALL of these positions and assertions.





No.
You can't see them.


No, not even some anonymized repackaged amalgamated version which would protect personal details of customers and commercially sensitive details of the individual businesses.

Liam McPoyle

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So an insurance company provided these facts?
I dunno maybe it's just me but I would take anything an insurance company says with a pinch of salt.

Ok, so the injuries board are lying about the record payments that have been made.

And the audits performed by the department of finance are all false.

Lads ye can keep yet heads in the sand and lay the blame solely at the foot of insurers (they aren't blameless by the way, not by a long shot) but the fact of the matter is that claims payments have reached record levels and that is the main driver behind the increase in premiums.

Rod Munch

Rod Munch wrote: »

http://www.insuranceireland.eu/news-and-publications/news-press-release/average-circuit-court-personal-injury-award-increases-by-48-from-2013-2016-insurance-ireland

Key points

Number of motor claims paid increased by 23% in the 5 years to 2016 according to the dept of finance.

And my insurance premium this year, after shopping around and moving to a different insurer, went up an astonishing 82% (and I have still over 10 years no claims bonus). 82% increase in a single year. Do the maths. I have zero sympathy for these exceedingly rich glorified gamblers of the "too big to fail" variety. We are being screwed royally by insurance companies and their guaranteed income stream (by virtue of the state legislating that every vehicle owner must have motor insurance).

Meanwhile, this government and its pointless talking shop Oireachtas committees sit on its hands when it comes to taking action (as opposed to mouthing platitudes). As every study in the past 40 years continues to show, in the developed world the rich are getting much richer and inequality is growing hugely right before our eyes. This is largely as a result of the cartel-like behaviour of oligopolistic industries like insurance which are allowed by governments and laws to hold us to ransom (but who we have to bail out when their greed gets the better of them - so much for the "free market"; they keep their profits in the good times and we get their losses in the bad times).

Liam McPoyle

_Brian wrote: »

Having being involved in a long painstaking case for an award myself I feel the truth lies somewhere between people being gouged by fraudulent claimants, insurance companies and legal teams.
My experience is that neither the insurance companies nor legal teams have much moral ground to be publicly blaming the other.

Fraudulent claimants need to be prosecuted, not just have cases struck out.

I agree 100%.

There is no risk to people making false or exaggerated claims but massive potential reward. Until something is done to change that then we are going to have a problem.

Liam McPoyle

SPDUB wrote: »

So they had time to shred the more interesting files

And if you don't want me to get that impression then don't post something so vague

What do you think they would find?

A trail of emails between insurers agreeing to price fixing or something?

The "raids" were mainly related to fleet and hire and reward business - couriers and the like.

That is an extremely distressed section of business and drastic pricing measures were required to make it viable.

There is nothing cartel about increasing rates on a line of business that is haemorrhaging money.

And besides, in the main it was brokers that were raided.

Brokers do not set prices.

machiavellianme

Rod Munch wrote: »

Tbh €350 is too low for anyone to be paying for a comp policy in this country. If the average premium over the last number of years was about €500 for drivers with a similar profile to yourself then we would not be seeing the massive spikes we have had.

As for what's being done, not enough imo.

I'd be very much in favour of an industry think tank with a couple of senior representatives from every insurer in the country. It would be overseen by a wholly impartial board and would include senior figures from the legal industry.

Part of the problem is that insurers and the legal fraternity are very much at odds with eachother. Insurers want lower settlement and legal fees, solicitors want higher settlement fees as it's more money in their pockets.

Why exactly is 350 too low?
This chap has 10 years of no claims and significant driving experience.
That's not to mention the 0 penalty points.
If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

Allinall

machiavellianme wrote: »

If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

That's the whole basis on how insurance works.

The risk is spread over all premiums.

It's obvious that low risk drivers have to subsidies other claims.

Special Circumstances

machiavellianme wrote: »

Why exactly is 350 too low?
This chap has 10 years of no claims and significant driving experience.
That's not to mention the 0 penalty points.
If you ask me, he's paying a lot for very little in return - basically getting a slip of paper and a feeling of cover. It's not his job to cross subsidise the rest of society.

Rod is essentially saying that these fictitious example customers that they mention in the small print when they give example figures are miles away from any actual representative customer. Or so it seems to me!


Minimum price based on Mary the yaris driving mid forties accountant from Wexford? €350? Far too little for any of you REAL people to be paying. Suckers.

Special Circumstances

Allinall wrote: »

That's the whole basis on how insurance works.

The risk is spread over all premiums.

It's obvious that low risk drivers have to subsidies other claims.

You agree that 350 is too low?

What's the minimum amount you'd like to see Joe average handing over?