On this day, 33 years ago...

...the Battle of Orgreave saw South Yorkshire Police repeatedly charged picketers at a coking plant in South Yorkshire. Policemen were ordered not to write up statements of arrest, instead superior officers did so to ensure they were coordinated. Meanwhile the BBC and other news outlets showed events in reverse, so it seemed like police responded to being showered with bricks and bottle and then charged on horseback. One could say so what, the miners were out to cause trouble, the police got their retaliation in first. Except that the same force were involved in similar action 5 years later, at the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough when 96 football fans, including children, never went home.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2016/nov/01/what-happened-at-the-battle-of-orgreave-video-explainer

LordSutch

Don't hear much from Scargill these days.

Cee-Jay-Cee

LordSutch wrote: »

Don't hear much from Scargill these days.

Ol' shredded wheat head!

My personal favourite riot was the Brixton riots in 81. Probably the worst rioting Britain has ever seen, 'twas a wile bit of craic altogether.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Don't hear much from Scargill these days.

He was such a terrible leader of the miners. Vanity and stupidity is the worst mix, crushed by Thatcher who was far more savvy. But Orgreave was a chilling lesson of what happens when the police are deployed for political reasons and to provoke disorder rather than contain it.

Beasty

LordSutch wrote: »

Don't hear much from Scargill these days.

"Officially" a recluse

Apparently he's been spending his latter years trying to destroy the NUM!

The Backwards Man

Scargill giving the cops the fight they wanted that day is the reason you have to pay 100 Euro a month to watch football on telly these days

Fratton Fred

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...the Battle of Orgreave saw South Yorkshire Police repeatedly charged picketers at a coking plant in South Yorkshire. Policemen were ordered not to write up statements of arrest, instead superior officers did so to ensure they were coordinated. Meanwhile the BBC and other news outlets showed events in reverse, so it seemed like police responded to being showered with bricks and bottle and then charged on horseback. One could say so what, the miners were out to cause trouble, the police got their retaliation in first. Except that the same force were involved in similar action 5 years later, at the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough when 96 football fans, including children, never went home.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2016/nov/01/what-happened-at-the-battle-of-orgreave-video-explainer

I haven't watched it, but I thought it was the Met Police, not South Yorkshire.

The Backwards Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I haven't watched it, but I thought it was the Met Police, not South Yorkshire.

There were police drawn in from all over the country, but South Yorkshire was in charge.

The Met was the Wapping dispute, but the media was firmly onside by that time.

Itssoeasy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

...the Battle of Orgreave saw South Yorkshire Police repeatedly charged picketers at a coking plant in South Yorkshire. Policemen were ordered not to write up statements of arrest, instead superior officers did so to ensure they were coordinated. Meanwhile the BBC and other news outlets showed events in reverse, so it seemed like police responded to being showered with bricks and bottle and then charged on horseback. One could say so what, the miners were out to cause trouble, the police got their retaliation in first. Except that the same force were involved in similar action 5 years later, at the Leppings Lane End of Hillsborough when 96 football fans, including children, never went home.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2016/nov/01/what-happened-at-the-battle-of-orgreave-video-explainer

I haven't watched it, but I thought it was the Met Police, not South Yorkshire.

No it was definitely South Yorkshire police.

Beyondgone

LordSutch wrote: »

Don't hear much from Scargill these days.

More's the pity. He was a decent man. Thatcher was hell bent on making an example of him.

Lucy8080

I read recently that your average copper was pulling in over £400 a week and senior officers over £500 a week,because of the over-time they got for policing /battering the strikers.

That was some wage in the early 80's for a copper.

The Backwards Man

Beyondgone wrote: »

More's the pity. He was a decent man. Thatcher was hell bent on making an example of him.

He was a commie eejit in fairness.

Yourself isit

He's still tweeting.

https://twitter.com/scargillarthur/status/867395414328324096

There was no saving the coal mines but a valient effort nonetheless.

Beyondgone

The Backwards Man wrote: »

He was a commie eejit in fairness.

Was he? I'd differ. But then I never agree with much you post. Probably the whole fake "I foot turf and am a simple man" thing. You strike me as more a D4 head who likes PMing the ladies ad nauseum. But what would I know?

I thought Scargill stood up for the last real bastion of the Unions. Thatcher railed through the destruction of the NUM, sowing the seeds for futher erosion of normal workers rights. And I'm not even a worker, so I should despise Scargill and worship Thatcher, but, because I have a brain, I don't. Odd, eh?

Werido

Total respect to Thatcher for standing up to the miners and preventing them from bringing Britain to her knees.

The Backwards Man

Beyondgone wrote: »

Was he? I'd differ. But then I never agree with much you post. Probably the whole fake "I foot turf and am a simple man" thing. You strike me as more a D4 head who likes PMing the ladies ad nauseum. But what would I know?

I thought Scargill stood up for the last real bastion of the Unions. Thatcher railed through the destruction of the NUM, sowing the seeds for futher erosion of normal workers rights. And I'm not even a worker, so I should despise Scargill and worship Thatcher, but, because I have a brain, I don't. Odd, eh?

Scargill led the workers down a merry path, your common or garden I'll promise you everything and nothing has to change prophet. You ask any miners to be honest and they'll admit things had to change, but you know yourself, when you get someone to stand up and promise you everything you want to hear, you're going to get a following.

Thatcher got what she wanted out of Scargill, a hardline Union man who would turn the masses off the pickets, Scargill did more for privatisation than Thatcher herself could ever hope of achieving

end of the road

Beyondgone wrote: »

Was he? I'd differ. But then I never agree with much you post. Probably the whole fake "I foot turf and am a simple man" thing. You strike me as more a D4 head who likes PMing the ladies ad nauseum. But what would I know?

I thought Scargill stood up for the last real bastion of the Unions. Thatcher railed through the destruction of the NUM, sowing the seeds for futher erosion of normal workers rights. And I'm not even a worker, so I should despise Scargill and worship Thatcher, but, because I have a brain, I don't. Odd, eh?

not odd at all. thatcher hated low earning and industrial workers and the poor. she hated workers rights and definitely hated those she saw as lower then her standing up for themselves. if you were a city worker or similar she liked you and did all sorts to insure her type benefited at the expence of everyone else. if you were one of the people she despised and still benefited it was luck on your part.
we know she used the police for political purposes but i would suspect it was a lot more regularly then we would know about.
she got ideas above her station and forgot where she actually came from.

ultimately a dangerous woman who's dangerousness (understandibly) couldn't be appreciated by most people.

prinzeugen

Werido wrote: »

Total respect to Thatcher for standing up to the miners and preventing them from bringing Britain to her knees.

The miners did bring Britian to its knees during the 3-day week period and that's what killed coal. Failure to modernise and adopt new practices and pay.

Business got pissed off with them holding the country to ransom and started to go for other power/fuel sources starting in the 70's.

When the miners gave up the strike, they found the market for coal had gone. Most had gone to North sea gas or electric.

But the idiot miners still wanted paid a premium to mine something that very few needed or could be imported cheaper.

Maggie just put the final nail in the coffin.

Yourself isit

Werido wrote: »

Total respect to Thatcher for standing up to the miners and preventing them from bringing Britain to her knees.

Yeah bringing Britain to its knees by destroying all industry.... Oh

end of the road

Werido wrote: »

Total respect to Thatcher for standing up to the miners and preventing them from bringing Britain to her knees.

she didn't stand up to the miners, she brutalised beat and terrorised them and fitted them up for trying to save their jobs and for being poor. she didn't prevent them from bringing britain to it's knees because that was never going to happen in the first place.
she brought huge parts of britain to it's knees however, something which has lasted to this day.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Scargill led the workers down a merry path, your common or garden I'll promise you everything and nothing has to change prophet. You ask any miners to be honest and they'll admit things had to change, but you know yourself, when you get someone to stand up and promise you everything you want to hear, you're going to get a following.

Thatcher got what she wanted out of Scargill, a hardline Union man who would turn the masses off the pickets, Scargill did more for privatisation than Thatcher herself could ever hope of achieving

Scargill simply stated that the plan was to close all the pits. he was right on that.
what he wanted however, and he had always stated, was that much of the pits were ripe for modernisation and he supported it. he however wanted to insure that those who lost jobs were given re-training (something few actually ever were given in the end) .
Scargill actually did nothing for privatization, thatcher's plan was always to privatize everything to insure the city would benefit at the expence of everyone else, and to insure that the government would be responsible for nothing. this would have happened regardless of the miners strike. thatcher did get what she wanted from Scargill, an excuse to have a visible show of force to send a message to the people that you don't question or stand up to the government or you will face the same action.

prinzeugen

Yourself isit wrote: »

Yeah bringing Britain to its knees by destroying all industry.... Oh

Most of the state owned industry went the same way for the same reason. Did not modernise and lost out to imports that were cheaper.

If brother xxx was going to be made redundant because there was no need for him all the other brothers in the union would go out on strike.

For example, at a colliery near where I am from in Scotland, there were 4 lads paid to drive a diesel to shunt the railway wagons even although all shunting was done by British Rail crews and loco and the mine had not had its own engine since the mid 60's!

These 4 lads were getting paid to do nothing in other words.

end of the road

prinzeugen wrote: »

The miners did bring Britian to its knees during the 3-day week period and that's what killed coal. Failure to modernise and adopt new practices and pay.

not quite correct. there was no issue with modernisation and working practices changing, as long as those who lost their jobs were given the tools needed to find work elsewhere. very few were given them in the end. in fact, it was modernisation that was wanted by the union, but the government didn't want it because thatcher's government at least needed to funnel money to her dictator friends and buying their coal and other products was a way to do that. pay was only high by standards then but that was taking the huge risks into account and it was to get people to do the job.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Business got pissed off with them holding the country to ransom and started to go for other power/fuel sources starting in the 70's.

When the miners gave up the strike, they found the market for coal had gone. Most had gone to North sea gas or electric.[/QUOTE]

the market for coal actually hadn't gone. it had dipped but not gone. even after the strike there were a large number of pits which were ripe for modernisation and which would have been profitable and were before the strike. however, there was a deliberate sabotaging of pits to insure they couldn't work again.

prinzeugen wrote: »

But the idiot miners still wanted paid a premium to mine something that very few needed or could be imported cheaper.

the miners were not idiots and they didn't want to be paid premiums for anything. they wanted a fair days work for a fair days pay. the cheeper imported coal was of very low quality and from slave labour mines in poland and other places which were dictatorships. the cheeper imported coal actually caused huge problems for those which used it i believe.

prinzeugen

end of the road wrote: »

she didn't stand up to the miners, she brutalised beat and terrorised them and fitted them up for trying to save their jobs and for being poor. she didn't prevent them from bringing britain to it's knees because that was never going to happen in the first place.
she brought huge parts of britain to it's knees however, something which has lasted to this day.



Scargill simply stated that the plan was to close all the pits. he was right on that.
what he wanted however, and he had always stated, was that much of the pits were ripe for modernisation and he supported it. he however wanted to insure that those who lost jobs were given re-training (something few actually ever were given in the end) .
Scargill actually did nothing for privatization, thatcher's plan was always to privatize everything to insure the city would benefit at the expence of everyone else, and to insure that the government would be responsible for nothing. this would have happened regardless of the miners strike. thatcher did get what she wanted from Scargill, an excuse to have a visible show of force to send a message to the people that you don't question or stand up to the government or you will face the same action.

There were no miners jobs at that point. Opencast was the way it went to supply power stations etc.

The big problem was this idea of soviet style entitlement that was put in there heads in 1947.

The mines were loss making and it was only right the should close.

Even Monktonhall near Edinburgh could not survive when the miners bought it.

prinzeugen

The only reason they started to import coal was because.. It was a reliable supply and regular. Most imported coal actually came from the USA not Poland.

At the same time the miners were on strike, almost every council house in the UK was converted to gas or electric, had double glazing put in etc.

You said all the miners wanted was a days pay for a days work.. Fine but if you can't sell the production of that days work, why should government pay for it?

It happened in the DDR and look at how that ended.

Ted Plain

I watched a really good documentary on BBC 4 a while back about the last deep mine in England, Kellingley Colliery, which closed down in 2015.

Just googled Kellingley there and found this article:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2015/11/last-days-big-k

Arthur Scargill didn't have much to say when approached for an interview.

Lucy8080

^^

Interesting article,Jordy.

Thatcher's Gov. considered giving redundancy pay of £35,000, behind closed doors, to try and resolve the strike.

A man with 51 years service in the above article has left with less than
£15,000 redundancy pay. The same man also lost a leg along the way,because of the nature of the work.

It lends an insight into how the Gov. of the time were as close to losing as winning.

Scargill started a strike in the spring,if he'd waited 'til Aug,Sept,Oct....a different story may have unfolded.

Samaris

I need to read more about all this. I've always been Generally Aware of it, but mostly from the miners' sides and the odd movie such as Billy Elliot (and those that really, really hate Thatcher - may be justified, but strikes me I only really hear one side of it). If the BBC were chopping and changing the vids, probably not a good place to start either.

In retrospect, I have family from that area, although I doubt even the more extended relations were still involved in the mines by the 80s.

Anyone got a good place to start?

kfallon

Werido wrote: »

Total respect to Thatcher

You totally lost me here.....absolute c?nt she was!

Wanderer78

I wonder, when will Leo make his move to shut down all the call centres?

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

not odd at all. thatcher hated low earning and industrial workers and the poor. she hated workers rights and definitely hated those she saw as lower then her standing up for themselves. if you were a city worker or similar she liked you and did all sorts to insure her type benefited at the expence of everyone else. if you were one of the people she despised and still benefited it was luck on your part.
we know she used the police for political purposes but i would suspect it was a lot more regularly then we would know about.
she got ideas above her station and forgot where she actually came from.

ultimately a dangerous woman who's dangerousness (understandibly) couldn't be appreciated by most people.

aah, she hated manual workers.

I wonder why she bent over backwards to bring Toyota to Derby and Nissan to Sunderland. At one time Wales was the second largest television producing country in the world with massive factories built on what was coal mines. Maybe she hated them so much she wanted to find work for them?

Fratton Fred

Jordy Verrill wrote: »

I watched a really good documentary on BBC 4 a while back about the last deep mine in England, Kellingley Colliery, which closed down in 2015.

Just googled Kellingley there and found this article:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/energy/2015/11/last-days-big-k

Arthur Scargill didn't have much to say when approached for an interview.

and not entirely unrelated: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/21/britain-set-for-first-coal-free-day-since-the-industrial-revolution

Friday was Britain’s first ever working day without coal power since the Industrial Revolution, according to the National Grid.

The control room tweeted the milestone on Friday. It is the first continuous 24-hour coal-free period for Britain since use of the fossil fuel began. West Burton 1 power station, the only coal-fired plant that had been up and running, went offline on Thursday.

neverever1

Just goes to show how little the ruling classes care for ordinary people in Britain, it's a pity not many of them can see it.

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

Just goes to show how little the ruling classes care for ordinary people in Britain, it's a pity not many of them can see it.

Do you remember the power cuts of the 70s, because the miners were on strike? Our local paper had the times each day that the power would go off, because the power station had to divert all power to essential premises, like hospitals. Thye went on strike because the Labour government of the time were trying to modernise the industry.

The miners couldn't have given a **** about anyone other than themselves. They got what was coming.

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Do you remember the power cuts of the 70s, because the miners were on strike? Our local paper had the times each day that the power would go off, because the power station had to divert all power to essential premises, like hospitals. Thye went on strike because the Labour government of the time were trying to modernise the industry.

The miners couldn't have given a **** about anyone other than themselves. They got what was coming.

I don't have an interest in English news stories past or present except when it affects us. I have been told by English people in the past that the working class have always been treated like dirt. It's a pity none of them stand together to fight back against it.

c_man

If only Michael Foot had got in power.

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

I don't have an interest in English news stories past or present except when it affects us. I have been told by English people in the past that the working class have always been treated like dirt. It's a pity none of them stand together to fight back against it.

British.

aah, so you have no idea what you're talking about then.

The Backwards Man

c_man wrote: »

If only Michael Foot had got in power.

Foot Heads Arms Body.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

aah, she hated manual workers.

I wonder why she bent over backwards to bring Toyota to Derby and Nissan to Sunderland. At one time Wales was the second largest television producing country in the world with massive factories built on what was coal mines. Maybe she hated them so much she wanted to find work for them?

she didn't "bend over backwards" to bring Toyota to Derby and Nissan to Sunderland.
they came of their own accord because they felt britain was a good place to trade probably due to tax breaks, tax breaks other companies availed of as well.
she made the odd tocan effort to find work for the odd few people but that is all it was. lip service and tocan jestures.

ohnonotgmail

c_man wrote: »

If only Michael Foot had got in power.

that bumbling idiot couldn't run a raffle never mind a country

Widdershins

Well it was a very sad situation no matter what way you look at it. There's still plenty of resentment there among the children and grandchildren of te working class.

The battle of the beanfields was an interesting one too.

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

British.

aah, so you have no idea what you're talking about then.

I'm going by what actual English people have said. Unless somehow you're more believable than them? Doubtful knowing some of the acts you support.

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

she didn't "bend over backwards" to bring Toyota to Derby and Nissan to Sunderland.
they came of their own accord because they felt britain was a good place to trade probably due to tax breaks, tax breaks other companies availed of as well.
she made the odd tocan effort to find work for the odd few people but that is all it was. lip service and tocan jestures.

she personally lobbied the Nissan CEO to bring 6000 jobs to Sunderland. I'd hardly call that a token effort for a few people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8253169.stm

Fratton Fred

Widdershins wrote: »

Well it was a very sad situation no matter what way you look at it. There's still plenty of resentment there among the children and grandchildren of te working class.

The battle of the beanfields was an interesting one too.

it was a classic case of opposing ideologies clashing and the guys in the middle being the ones that suffered most.

There was only ever going to be one winner and both sides could have handled it so much better, but at the end of the day, the NUM were trying to hold back the tide.

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

I'm going by what actual English people have said. Unless somehow you're more believable than them? Doubtful knowing some of the acts you support.

Actual English people, you mean like real, live english people who were alive during the miners strike and to whom it was a major event in their formative years?

right.....:D

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Actual English people, you mean like real, live english people who were alive during the miners strike and to whom it was a major event in their formative years?

right.....:D

Yes.

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

Yes.

glad we cleared that one up :pac:

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

glad we cleared that one up :pac:

Ok.

end of the road

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that bumbling idiot couldn't run a raffle never mind a country

why couldn't he. i saw wno reason why he couldn't. had the falklands war not been engineered then he may very well have been elected to run the country.

ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

why couldn't he. i saw wno reason why he couldn't. had the falklands war not been engineered then he may very well have been elected to run the country.

let me guess: you think that the british should have handed the "malvinas" over to the argies over the wishes of the inhabitants?

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

Ok.

Classic.

I look forward to meeting these "Actual" English people of which you speak. Maybe they could teach me about this place, I'd like to go some day

Fratton Fred

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

let me guess: you think that the british should have handed the "malvinas" over to the argies over the wishes of the inhabitants?

it was all manufactured by Thatcher. She persuaded the Junta to invade so she could win the election. She even managed to get them to send their friendly little cruise ship to saunter off on a sight seeing cruise, so she could sink it.