Yet another what car suits.

from_atozinc

Hello,

Yet another what car thread. Looking to buy a car. Here are my stats.

- Drive 6000 miles a year
- Car predominantly used for going to work
- Journey to work is 13 miles:
first mile is getting on motorway (5 mins)
then 10 miles motorway driving
last 2 miles is stop start traffic and takes about 15 mins.
- Car will be used sometimes with 2 child seats
- Partner has a diesel car which we use for all the other long journeys etc.

Things may change in a couple of years when the children start going to soccer, rugby , hurling, chess, synchronized swimming on Saturdays etc etc but for now they are still small, so this hasn't started yet. When this starts, would prefer to use the petrol car for this ferrying around as these would be short enough journeys.


Would like a petrol car
that is RELIABLE
Preferably an AUTOMATIC.
with relatively decent MPG. 35 mpg maybe
I dont want something like a 1.4 petrol, too sluggish.
Would like something with a bit of poke in it. 0-60 in under 10. The lower the better
Need back doors
Saloon or hatchback
Would like a 2010 or so car
Budget = 9 - 10,000

Any thoughts?

cros13

A used Nissan Leaf would be the best fit.

At least ten times cheaper to run than a combustion car, more power than a 2.2 petrol, lots of space and glides over the road like a merc.
A good 132/141 Mk1.5 would be at or slightly above the upper end of your budget as the prices for used leafs are currently going up due to high UK demand.
0 - 100 in under 10, but feels faster 'cause it's much quicker than that suggests at low speeds. You can also get an official NISMO chip to knock at least another 2nd off the 0-100 if you ever get bored.

Your mileage is ludicrously low though.

lawred2

cros13 wrote: »

A used Nissan Leaf would be the best fit.

What's the lifetime of those batteries? I presume they degrade over time.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

A used Nissan Leaf would be the best fit.

is this purely electric?
Are these slow?
Are these reliable?

cros13

lawred2 wrote: »

What's the lifetime of those batteries? I presume they degrade over time.

Between 15-20 years. The 30kWh has an 8 year 160,000km powertrain warranty and the 24kWh has a 5 year 100,000km warranty.
This warranty guarantees a minimum capacity of 70%, even after 20 years the car will be fine as a grocery-getter.

It's important to note that those are the warrantied minimums. You can expect much much lower degradation, C&C taxis in the UK for example have a Mk1.5 Leaf with over 300,000km on it still well inside the warrantied capacity.
Out of 30,000 Leafs sold in europe up to Jan 2016, four had a battery-related warranty claim.

A cooled/heated pack like in the BMW i3 should last even longer.

I do 60,000km a year on my primary EV (I own both a Leaf (my 2nd) and an i3), I've done 250,000km total with no noticeable capacity loss.

The japanese-built Mk1 Leaf (2010 - 132 reg) had some issues in hot climates (desert hot - Nevada) and with a lot of rapid charging (which heats up the battery) primarily due to the battery not having a cooling system and nissan using a particularly heat sensitive chemistry. But the Mk1.5 (from the 132/141 reg) is bulletproof.

from_atozinc wrote: »

is this purely electric?

Yes

from_atozinc wrote: »

Are these slow?

Hell no. Even a Leaf is quicker from light to light than most 3.0 executive sedans. Though top speed is electronically limited to 160km/h (to avoid you hitting the discharge limits of the battery during aggressive driving).

I'd also point out that the quickest production car in the world and the fastest production car around the Nürburgring are both electric.

from_atozinc wrote: »

Are these reliable?

Far more reliable than any combustion car. No servicing beyond an annual inspection to keep up the warranty and changing the brake fluid and air filter every second inspection.

colm_mcm

Prius or Leaf

from_atozinc

mmmm, so seems to fa from the replies, everyone is saying Electric or even Hybrid.

One to think about, I was just thinking petrol

Would one have to get a night meter installed at the house? If so, how much does this installation cost ?

colm_mcm

Night meter is free install but the standing charge is a bit higher. You'd still want a charger though.

from_atozinc

colm_mcm wrote: »

Night meter is free install but the standing charge is a bit higher. You'd still want a charger though.

how much does the charger pack or unit or whatever it is cost?

from_atozinc

When was the leaf launched in Ireland?

When were the 24kWh and 30 kWh cars launched?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

how much does the charger pack or unit or whatever it is cost?

A chargepoint is about €300 - €400 ( a good example is this rolec: https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-charging-c1694/charge-points-c1695/rolec-ev-home-commercial-charge-wallpod-32a-type-2-evwp2026-p23238 ) and you can get your local electrician to install it (it's the same work as an outdoor socket).

The connector is a european standard Type 2 socket and will work with any EV or plug-in hybrid released for at least the next 10 years.

from_atozinc wrote: »

When was the leaf launched in Ireland?

When were the 24kWh and 30 kWh cars launched?

The Mark 1 24kWh leaf launched in 2010, only two cars were sold in Ireland it's first year, and it's been growing ever since. They are all japanese-built cars with an inefficient heating system.

The Mark 1.5 24kWh launched in mid-2013 and are built in Sunderland, UK for the european market. They have a more resilient battery and an efficient heat pump heating system.

The Mark 1.75 24 and 30kWh arrived in January 2016, in addition to the optional 30kWh battery there is an upgraded infotainment system.

The Mark 2 Leaf will launch in September and is expected to have a 40kWh-class pack with a 60kWh coming for the 191 reg. It's also entirely restyled and has Nissan's Gen1 Propilot autonomous motorway driving.

from_atozinc wrote: »

Would one have to get a night meter installed at the house? If so, how much does this installation cost ?

You don't have to but it more than halves your electricity cost a night while the day rate only rises by 1c/kWh. Standing charge rises by €30-50/year but you'll make that back in a matter of months. As colm_mcm stated installation is free and they'll have it done inside 7 days.

colm_mcm

Plus you'll save on washing machine/dishwasher/dryer if you run them at night.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

A chargepoint is about €300 - €400 ( a good example is this rolec: https://www.yesss.co.uk/heating-ventilation-c5/ev-charging-c1694/charge-points-c1695/rolec-ev-home-commercial-charge-wallpod-32a-type-2-evwp2026-p23238 ) and you can get your local electrician to install it (it's the same work as an outdoor socket).

The connector is a european standard Type 2 socket and will work with any EV or plug-in hybrid released for at least the next 10 years.



The Mark 1 24kWh leaf launched in 2010, only two cars were sold in Ireland it's first year, and it's been growing ever since. They are all japanese-built cars with an inefficient heating system.

The Mark 1.5 24kWh launched in mid-2013 and are built in Sunderland, UK for the european market. They have a more resilient battery and an efficient heat pump heating system.

The Mark 1.75 24 and 30kWh arrived in January 2016, in addition to the optional 30kWh battery there is an upgraded infotainment system.

The Mark 2 Leaf will launch in September and is expected to have a 40kWh-class pack with a 60kWh coming for the 191 reg. It's also entirely restyled and has Nissan's Gen1 Propilot autonomous motorway driving.



You don't have to but it more than halves your electricity cost a night while the day rate only rises by 1c/kWh. Standing charge rises by €30-50/year but you'll make that back in a matter of months. As colm_mcm stated installation is free and they'll have it done inside 7 days.

Thank you for all the input.

So I would be looking at the mark 1.5 anyway. The mark 1 and 1.5 have same 24kWh power. Besides having a newer car is it worthwhile going for the 1.5? I know you mention battery and heat pump but is it really worthwhile going to 1.5.


Also, 2nd hand (compared to a focus diesel as an example of same year 131, 141, they seem a lot cheaper ) the leaf seems a lot cheaper. Is this purely because of their limited range? Or is it to do with warranty on the battery maybe ? Or just that Irish people haven't grasped them yet.

acronym Chilli

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thank you for all the input.

So I would be looking at the mark 1.5 anyway. The mark 1 and 1.5 have same 24kWh power. Besides having a newer car is it worthwhile going for the 1.5? I know you mention battery and heat pump but is it really worthwhile going to 1.5.


Also, 2nd hand (compared to a focus diesel as an example of same year 131, 141, they seem a lot cheaper ) the leaf seems a lot cheaper. Is this purely because of their limited range? Or is it to do with warranty on the battery maybe ? Or just that Irish people haven't grasped them yet.

Do you have to have off street parking?

from_atozinc

acronym Chilli wrote: »

Do you have to have off street parking?

Sorry?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

So I would be looking at the mark 1.5 anyway. The mark 1 and 1.5 have same 24kWh power. Besides having a newer car is it worthwhile going for the 1.5? I know you mention battery and heat pump but is it really worthwhile going to 1.5.

There were over a hundred changes between the mark 1 and the mark1.5, but the major ones were:

• As mentioned the battery is more resilient (about four times slower degradation than the Mk1)
• Also the boot is bigger and has a near flat loading area with the seats down
• The heat pump makes a massive difference in the winter, with the old heater you could drain 10% of the battery heating the cabin for an hour. The heat pump cuts that by 50-80%
• The mk 1.5 can be optioned with an onboard charger that's twice as fast, so with a suitable home chargepoint they'll charge in ~3-4 hours at home (though these carry a premium 2nd hand).

lots of minor changes like:

• a battery percentage meter in the dash
• sunglasses holder
• B-mode for enhanced regenerative braking
• suspension setup better for Irish/UK potholed roads
• electric charge port release
• LED light at the charge port to help you plug in in the dark
• slightly better range due to slight aerodynamics and motor changes
• better quality interior headliner

So yeah... it's worth the extra scratch.

from_atozinc wrote: »

Or just that Irish people haven't grasped them yet.

This... a few people seem to be catching on now... used prices are up 10-20% the past few months.

Most people don't know that you can rapid charge from near empty to 80% in 20-25 minutes on long trips.
They underestimate the practicality as they don't understand the effect of the car being full every single morning.
They've never driven one so they assume incorrectly that they drive like some kind of milk float.

They're also way better equipped than something like a focus.

The SV (called the Acenta in the UK) is the most common spec in Ireland:

Smartphone app control... including remote/timer activation of heating/cooling.
Rain sensing wipers,
7" touchscreen sat-nav
Keyless entry
Reversing cam
Electric folding mirrors
Privacy glass
Front heated seats
Cruise control with braking

All standard on that trim.... many also have the cold pack which adds heated steering wheel, door mirrors and rear seats.

SVE (Tekna) is the top spec which for 141s are going for an extra €1-1.5k adds:
leather interior
360 degree camera "around view monitor"
a really good Bose sound system
LED headlamps
17" alloys that look way better

It's worth going to a Nissan Leaf dealer and getting a 48-72 hour test drive. It's a fairly standard thing and you can be upfront about being in the market for a used example if it suits.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

There were over a hundred changes between the mark 1 and the mark1.5, but the major ones were:

• As mentioned the battery is more resilient (about four times slower degradation than the Mk1)
• Also the boot is bigger and has a near flat loading area with the seats down
• The heat pump makes a massive difference in the winter, with the old heater you could drain 10% of the battery heating the cabin for an hour. The heat pump cuts that by 50-80%
• The mk 1.5 can be optioned with an onboard charger that's twice as fast, so with a suitable home chargepoint they'll charge in ~3-4 hours at home (though these carry a premium 2nd hand).

lots of minor changes like:

• a battery percentage meter in the dash
• sunglasses holder
• B-mode for enhanced regenerative braking
• suspension setup better for Irish/UK potholed roads
• electric charge port release
• LED light at the charge port to help you plug in in the dark
• slightly better range due to slight aerodynamics and motor changes
• better quality interior headliner

So yeah... it's worth the extra scratch.



This... a few people seem to be catching on now... used prices are up 10-20% the past few months.

Most people don't know that you can rapid charge from near empty to 80% in 20-25 minutes on long trips.
They underestimate the practicality as they don't understand the effect of the car being full every single morning.
They've never driven one so they assume incorrectly that they drive like some kind of milk float.

They're also way better equipped than something like a focus.

The SV (called the Acenta in the UK) is the most common spec in Ireland:

Smartphone app control... including remote/timer activation of heating/cooling.
Rain sensing wipers,
7" touchscreen sat-nav
Keyless entry
Reversing cam
Electric folding mirrors
Privacy glass
Front heated seats
Cruise control with braking

All standard on that trim.... many also have the cold pack which adds heated steering wheel, door mirrors and rear seats.

SVE (Tekna) is the top spec which for 141s are going for an extra ?1-1.5k adds:
leather interior
360 degree camera "around view monitor"
a really good Bose sound system
LED headlamps
17" alloys that look way better

It's worth going to a Nissan Leaf dealer and getting a 48-72 hour test drive. It's a fairly standard thing and you can be upfront about being in the market for a used example if it suits.

Thanks. Is there an obvious way to distinguish between the mark 1 and 1.5? Different headlights etc.

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks. Is there an obvious way to distinguish between the mark 1 and 1.5? Different headlights etc.

There's a button that says ECO on the steering wheel of the Mk1.5, also the dark interior headliner was not available on the Mk1. All 141s forward are Mk1.5 it's just for the 132 reg and a tiny number of 131s you need to spot the difference.

An important point is that "ECO mode" just remaps the accelerator, it won't give any more range vs a disciplined driver... just less responsiveness. So on the test drive make sure ECO mode is off.

Cee-Jay-Cee

acronym Chilli wrote: »

Do you have to have off street parking?

Unless you want to run the charging cable out over your wall and across the footpath where anyone can trip over it and technically sue your for injuries then yes its preferable to have off street parking in order to charge the car at night.

from_atozinc

See attached car ad.

It mentions 6.6 kw. What does this mean. I.e. Versus the 24 kWh?

Also, it mentions fast charge, are some cars different and come with a fast charge facility?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

See attached car ad.

It mentions 6.6 kw. What does this mean. I.e. Versus the 24 kWh?

So that's a 24kWh car with dual onboard chargers (2 x 3.3kW).
The AC battery charger that's used at home is built into the car.
The chargepoint is just a glorified outdoor socket with some extra safety features.

kWh (kilowatt-hour) is a measure of capacity
kW (kilowatt) is a measure of instantaneous power

So motor output, accessory consumption and chargers are measured in kW. Battery capacity is measured in kWh.
For example: A 100kW motor operating at 8% output will draw 8kW. A 100kWh battery will supply an 8kW load for 100 / 8 = 12.5 hours.

The seller is a well known Athlone-based importer of cars from the UK
They have a good reputation for bringing in good quality stock.

from_atozinc wrote: »

Also, it mentions fast charge, are some cars different and come with a fast charge facility?

All Irish Leafs have rapid charging, however some imports from the UK (mostly pre-161 XE/Visia base models) lack the rapid charging port.
Rapid charging is what enables long range trips so it's an essential.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

So that's a 24kWh car with dual onboard chargers (2 x 3.3kW).
The AC battery charger that's used at home is built into the car.
The chargepoint is just a glorified outdoor socket with some extra safety features.

kWh (kilowatt-hour) is a measure of capacity
kW (kilowatt) is a measure of instantaneous power

So motor output, accessory consumption and chargers are measured in kW. Battery capacity is measured in kWh.
For example: A 100kW motor operating at 8% output will draw 8kW. A 100kWh battery will supply an 8kW load for 100 / 8 = 12.5 hours.

The seller is a well known Athlone-based importer of cars from the UK
They have a good reputation for bringing in good quality stock.



All Irish Leafs have rapid charging, however some imports from the UK (mostly pre-161 XE/Visia base models) lack the rapid charging port.
Rapid charging is what enables long range trips so it's an essential.

I'm confused now

In regard to a 2014 Leaf......bringing it back to normal cars e.g. Like a BMW 520d 525d etc

Do the leafs come in different power ranges or better models, faster charging cars ?

acronym Chilli

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Unless you want to run the charging cable out over your wall and across the footpath where anyone can trip over it and technically sue your for injuries then yes its preferable to have off street parking in order to charge the car at night.

I thought that, but it seemed like such a big problem in the electric vehicle logistics I'd hoped there was a workaround. I mean on public on street chargers the cable issue has to be handled somehow.?

Bit of a problem for a lot of folk then. Also hard to make it work in apartment buildings (if it grows to any scale), rented accommodation of any type, terraced properties, etc.,

Meanwhile the EV targets are huge. Definitely not been thought out properly (though in long run EV is technically the way to go)

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

I'm confused now

In regard to a 2014 Leaf......bringing it back to normal cars e.g. Like a BMW 520d 525d etc

Do the leafs come in different power ranges or better models, faster charging cars ?

Not at the moment. Higher priced EVs do have several motor power options.

It's a fast changing market. My i3 hit the market in Ireland in 2014, in 2016 got a 57% larger capacity battery, this september the i3S will launch with double the battery capacity of the 2014 model in the same size and weight and dual motor AWD.

Jaguar are launching the i-Pace SUV at the same show with multiple motor and battery options. That will have 170kW rapid charging vs 50kW for the i3 and Leaf.
The new chargers being rolled out across europe this summer can supply up 400kW vs the current 50kW units. Which means if you had the battery that could take it they'd deliver 400km of range to an EV in 10 minutes or less.

For the moment at the lower end of the market the competition will be on battery capacity with charging rate a distant 2nd. Mainly because the EV owner doing average mileage only charges at a rapid charger on a road trip a couple of times a year. Though newer EVs like Hyundai's Ioniq or the Kia Soul EV have 70kW and 100kW rapid charge rates respectively.

But you're talking €25k after scrappage and a place on a waiting list 'til November for the Ioniq (except for a few white demo cars) 'cause Hyundai Ireland is sold out.

In the used market there is not a whole lot of choice except from the UK. From 2010-161 almost 90% of EV sales in Ireland were all Leafs.

acronym Chilli wrote: »

I thought that, but it seemed like such a big problem in the electric vehicle logistics I'd hoped there was a workaround. I mean on public on street chargers the cable issue has to be handled somehow.?

Bit of a problem for a lot of folk then. Also hard to make it work in apartment buildings (if it grows to any scale), rented accommodation of any type, terraced properties, etc.,

Meanwhile the EV targets are huge. Definitely not been thought out properly (though in long run EV is technically the way to go)

I think right now for the majority of people doing 40-50,000km/year or less (with 1-2 or less 200km one charge trips a week), buying new, with a driveway and looking at the body styles available, an EV is a no-brainer.

For those with unallocated or on-street parking... in 2-3 years there will be several options of cars with 400km+ range and 150kW+ rapid charging. Kia/Hyundai, Nissan, Jaguar, Telsa, Audi and Mercedes all have 300-500km+ EVs on the way in the next 12-18 months. BMW's i3S will be somewhere in the 250-300km area. Renault's Zoe 40 (launched this month in Ireland) is already around 250-300km. I'm looking at real world ranges there.

Battery prices have dropped 80% since Nissan launched the Leaf so we're starting to see the point where at least at the premium end direct competition with petrol/diesel on purchase price is becoming possible.

from_atozinc

If I was to buy a 2014 leaf:

are there some versions of this car that will charge faster than others?
are there some versions of this car that have a stronger battery?

grogi

from_atozinc wrote: »

If I was to buy a 2014 leaf:

are these some versions of this car that will charge faster than others?
are these some versions of this car that have a stronger battery?

Yes (from MY2014 one could get a 6.6kW charger) and No (30kWh was introduced with MY2016).

from_atozinc

grogi wrote: »

Yes (from MY2014 one could get a 6.6kW charger) and No (30kWh was introduced with MY2016).

Thanks, what does "MY" stand for?

what is the advantage of the 6.6 kw charger over the standard one?
Is this something physically present in the car itself?
How much extra is this 6.6 kw charger?

biko

MY = model year

from_atozinc

from_atozinc wrote: »

Thanks, what does "MY" stand for?

what is the advantage of the 6.6 kw charger over the standard one?
Is this something physically present in the car itself?
How much extra is this 6.6 kw charger?

Hi

Any comments on this?

cros13

from_atozinc wrote: »

what is the advantage of the 6.6 kw charger over the standard one?

Home and streetside charging is twice as fast. That's not a huge deal as the 3.3kW will still fully charge overnight but it's handy to have.

from_atozinc wrote: »

Is this something physically present in the car itself?

Yes, the onboard charger is doubled up. This can't be easily retrofitted due to it's location.

from_atozinc wrote: »

How much extra is this 6.6 kw charger?

On a new car €900. In the used market 6.6kW equipped cars sell quicker and there's a price premium.

from_atozinc

cros13 wrote: »

Home and streetside charging is twice as fast. That's not a huge deal as the 3.3kW will still fully charge overnight but it's handy to have.



Yes, the onboard charger is doubled up. This can't be easily retrofitted due to it's location.



On a new car ?900. In the used market 6.6kW equipped cars sell quicker and there's a price premium.

So if you have a 6.6kW equipped car, does this mean that you have to plug in 2 plugs to the car to charge it?

percentage wise, how many 2014 cars would have the 6.6 kw, roughly speaking, would it be something like 10% or 70%, I have no idea so just wondering