Which lane should you be in, M4 Kilcock exit

twin_beacon

This has been bugging me for a while.
To explain the map, you are traveling west bound on the M4, and getting off at exit 8, Kilcock. You are traveling up the the exit ramp, in the direction of the arrow.
Exit A: Clane
Exit B: Return to the M4 West bound
Exit C: Enfield
Exit Kilcock
Exit E: M4 East bound.

You want to get off at the exit for Enfield (exit C). Looking at the sign on the exit ramp (the green X in the map), Exit B does not have a destination assigned to it, i.e. Sligo/Westport/Galway. It also doesn't have an "arrow". The probably logic being, that if a driver left the M4 west bound, they are not going to get back onto the same road (thats probably true 99.9% of the time).
As a result, in this scenario, does Exit C for Enfield become the second exit, meaning you should be in the left (outside) lane? Without seeing the sign, I would assume that the Enfield turnoff would be the third exit, and you should be in the right (inside) lane when entering the roundabout.

I drive this road most evenings, and there is probably a 50/50 split of people that are in the left or right lane for the Enfield (Exit C) exit, the result is a lot of people merging into the outside lane between Exit B and Exit C, I've seen a few close calls of people forcing their way in, and people not letting people in.

Map:


Sign:

chocksaway

I would be in the right hand lane

mirrorwall14

I find most Enfield are either in the left lane or switch to the left lane on the bridge before the junction

chocksaway

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I find most Enfield are either in the left lane or switch to the left lane on the bridge before the junction

yeah that makes the most sense. plenty of time and space after Exit B to get into the left lane

nailer54321

If you want to get off at exit C you should be in the right hand lane, so many people do not know the rules of the road when they are entering a round about.

K.Flyer

I would approach this as you would any other roundabout.
Left lane for going left or straight on, right lane with right indicator on for exits after straight on.
Indicate left and move into left lane for Enfield after the straight on turn, Indicate left and move into left lane after Enfield turn for Kilcock.

shietpilot

I've driven on that bridge/roundabout hybrid thing and I would take the right lane and switch to the left lane after passing exit B.

twin_beacon

K.Flyer wrote: »

I would approach this as you would any other roundabout.
Left lane for going left or straight on, right lane with right indicator on for exits after straight on.
Indicate left and move into left lane for Enfield after the straight on turn, Indicate left and move into left lane after Enfield turn for Kilcock.

Thats exactly what I thought, until I seen the sign where the exit back onto the M4 was not marked on it got me questioning it

Senecio

You need to stop thinking about exit 1, 2 etc... They irrelevant. Anything up to 12 o'clock or straight on should use the left lane. any exit after that should use the right lane.

Simple

grogi

twin_beacon wrote: »

I drive this road most evenings, and there is probably a 50/50 split of people that are in the left or right lane for the Enfield (Exit C) exit, the result is a lot of people merging into the outside lane between Exit B and Exit C, I've seen a few close calls of people forcing their way in, and people not letting people in.

No hard rules, but I would get in right lane and switch to left lane on the bridge after passing exit B.

Conor03

I use this every day and always use the left lane. it is impossible to get into the left lane if starting position is the right lane

twin_beacon

Conor03 wrote: »

I use this every day and always use the left lane. it is impossible to get into the left lane if starting position is the right lane

Yep, I know exactly what you are talking about. Ive seen a lot of very close calls there. Lots of people in the left lane speed up as soon as they see an indicator from the car on the inside lane. I must keep the next few incidents I get on the dash cam actually.

neil_hosey

twin_beacon wrote: »

Yep, I know exactly what you are talking about. Ive seen a lot of very close calls there. Lots of people in the left lane speed up as soon as they see an indicator from the car on the inside lane. I must keep the next few incidents I get on the dash cam actually.

people are assholes, it happens to me regularly here..

im in the correct lane, and indicate, move in, then there is a car speeding right up behind me beeping/flashing

there should be signs all along the M4 warning people to stop acting like assholes.

Staph

Conor03 wrote: »

I use this every day and always use the left lane. it is impossible to get into the left lane if starting position is the right lane

In fairness,if people used the roundabout correctly there wouldn't be a problem getting in. You are contributing to the problem. I use this roundabout everyday day and use the right lane to enter and move left before the Enfield exit.

Conor03

I will continue to use the left lane as this issue will never be addressed and I am not missing my exit! The one time I did use the left lane the car behind sped up and nearly caused a crash. I will not be in that situation again

conf101

Conor03 wrote: »

I will continue to use the left lane as this issue will never be addressed and I am not missing my exit! The one time I did use the left lane the car behind sped up and nearly caused a crash. I will not be in that situation again

As has been said already, as long as people continue to drive incorrectly (i.e. what you're doing) then you're right, the issue will never be addressed.

The problem with Irish drivers is that so many of them drive in a way that suits their own individual needs, rather than driving according to the rules of the road.

Staph

So you are going to continue to cause problems for the other drivers using the roundabout correctly.... well done.

grogi

conf101 wrote: »

As has been said already, as long as people continue to drive incorrectly (i.e. what you're doing) then you're right, the issue will never be addressed.

The problem with Irish drivers is that so many of them drive in a way that suits their own individual needs, rather than driving according to the rules of the road.

But he is not wrong per se. Such behaviour might be antisocial, but not breaking the law.

conf101

He is wrong. That's not the correct way to drive on a roundabout.

grogi

conf101 wrote: »

He is wrong. That's not the correct way to drive on a roundabout.

Another myth (the first is diesel-bad-for-city) live here... THERE IS NO CORRECT WAY... The rules promoted by RSA are focused on improving the efficiency and throughput of roundabouts, which in result would reduce the congestion.

You can take left lane and go around - and you'll be doing nothing wrong but being an ass.

Conor03

If that's what it takes to get me home then yeah ill keep doing it even if it makes me an ass:P
I aint the only one doing it and Im sure theres some on here doing it but afraid to say it!!

ironclaw

Its amazing to think that 15 mins with a line painting crew would literally solve most, if not all, of Ireland's roundabout problems. It would also be a slap on the back and a big thumbs up to how stupid a nation we are becoming that we need to be told what lane to be in.

Btw Conor, if you cause an accident, you will likely be a fault for being in the incorrect lane. You are also acting in a manner than another driver should not have to contend with i.e. At that point i don't expect (Although there always will because idiots) a driver to be to my left. Proceed with caution.

shane b

I use this junction every evening and take the kilcock/trim (D) exit. I always take the right lane on approach to the roundabout. I see a lot of cars changing lanes to go to Enfield but the issue is when the outside lane is busy. Someone almost stopped their car on the roundabout in front of me last week waiting to change lanes.
The thing that bugs me is that people hold the middle of the slip way until the marking close to the roundabout divides the slip in two (like the photo below) and then decide lane they are going to use. Granted the slip isn t the widest but there is enough space for 2 lanes of cars to queue up to the roundabout and considering how busy this slip is I think it s a bit odd. For me I know I m taking the inside lane so once on the slipway I tend to move my car to the right as I move up towards the roundabout.
Getting away from the M4 Junction I found this diagram while doing an image search that I thought was interesting..
.
Getting away from the M4 Junction I found this diagram while doing an image search that I thought was interesting.

grogi

ironclaw wrote: »

Btw Conor, if you cause an accident, you will likely be a fault for being in the incorrect lane.

"If you cause accident, you'll be at fault" - that's self explanatory, isn't it?

You are also acting in a manner than another driver should not have to contend with i.e. At that point i don't expect (Although there always will because idiots) a driver to be to my left. Proceed with caution.

If one is changing a lane (from right to left in this case) and assume there is nobody there, he is doing it wrong. You must yield to the traffic in the lane you are changing to, regardless where they entered that lane or where they are going to.

twin_beacon

ironclaw wrote: »

Btw Conor, if you cause an accident, you will likely be a fault for being in the incorrect lane. You are also acting in a manner than another driver should not have to contend with i.e. At that point i don't expect (Although there always will because idiots) a driver to be to my left. Proceed with caution.

If everyone drove correctly onto this roundabout, then traffic entering from Clane (exit a in the diagram) would in the left lane.

grogi

twin_beacon wrote: »

If everyone drove correctly onto this roundabout, then traffic entering from Clane (exit a in the diagram) would in the left lane.

Wait for the "these cars should give way to the cars already on the roundabout" argument...

Advbrd

Conor03 wrote: »

I will continue to use the left lane as this issue will never be addressed and I am not missing my exit! The one time I did use the left lane the car behind sped up and nearly caused a crash. I will not be in that situation again

You will continue to be in the wrong and will continue to contribute to the problem in addition to blocking entry to traffic from Clane. Well done.

Isambard

what's needed is for the left lane to be marked Enfield approaching the roundabout. Then it could be used as people are. As it is, the correct lane is the right lane.

flazio

Would it be fair to say that the majority of cars coming off the motorway at that junction are heading for the Enfield road? If so then that could cause a bit of a queue to form at peak times that could end up on the motorway, if I remember the layout correctly then this could be solved by having two lanes on the Enfield exit as far as the old junction for Kilcock and then a zip merge. That way both left and right lanes can be used.

grogi

Isambard wrote: »

what's needed is for the left lane to be marked Enfield approaching the roundabout. Then it could be used as people are. As it is, the correct lane is the right lane.

What should happen is the left lane disapearing after exit B (and E), right becoming left and new lane appearing in the centre. Add mild lane barriers, such as slightly raised lines - and ambiguity disappears.

But Irish road engineers keep using the archaic design of a roundabout - and we see the results. Confusion and ambiguity.

twin_beacon

flazio wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that the majority of cars coming off the motorway at that junction are heading for the Enfield road? If so then that could cause a bit of a queue to form at peak times that could end up on the motorway, if I remember the layout correctly then this could be solved by having two lanes on the Enfield exit as far as the old junction for Kilcock and then a zip merge. That way both left and right lanes can be used.

If everyone used the current setup correctly, then there would indeed be a line of cars down the hard shoulder of the M4.
I don't think 2 lanes for enfield would actually work, as then anybody exiting the M4 East bound would have an extra lane of traffic to contend with.

I think have the having the left lane assigned to Clane, M4 West bound, and Enfield, and the right lane assigned to Kilcock and M4 East bound could be a workable option. There would need to be a large gantry sign to clear things up. OR, have the facility for both lanes to exit at the Enfield exit, and have them merge further down towards the old N4. This would reduce a large tailback on the M4 for exiting traffic, and greatly reduce the chance of a collision as there should be a lot less lane changes.

BrianD3

I always use the right hand lane but I rarely use the roundabout at peak times. At off peak time using the RH lane you can generally get into the correct position to exit. However at peak times I could well imagine traffic in the LH lane actively blocking you from taking your exit. In a situation like that I would probably do a 360 around the roundabout rather than try to force in/engage in road rage.

It is a strange roundabout, the exit at point C in the photo is shaped in such a way that traffic doesn't naturally flow towards it from the RH lane. There is also a bad camber/low grip on the exit which is better now that there is a high friction surface there but I have seen the aftermath of crashes there where cars spun exiting the roundabout.

Another thing is that at around point B in the photo there is an area of low grip. No problem in the dry but in the wet on cheap tyres....Not the sort of place that you want to be accelerating/trying to nip in front of someone who is in the wrong lane and blocking you.

flazio

twin_beacon wrote: »

If everyone used the current setup correctly, then there would indeed be a line of cars down the hard shoulder of the M4.
I don't think 2 lanes for enfield would actually work, as then anybody exiting the M4 East bound would have an extra lane of traffic to contend with.

I think have the having the left lane assigned to Clane, M4 West bound, and Enfield, and the right lane assigned to Kilcock and M4 East bound could be a workable option. There would need to be a large gantry sign to clear things up. OR, have the facility for both lanes to exit at the Enfield exit, and have them merge further down towards the old N4. This would reduce a large tailback on the M4 for exiting traffic, and greatly reduce the chance of a collision as there should be a lot less lane changes.

That's pretty much what I'm suggesting, just explained better. Thanks.
Current set up isn't perfect, if everyone followed the rules exactly it could cause a bigger problem on a more dangerous road. (M4 itself) if money were no object then the junction would probably end up looking like something off the M50, after a few years with traffic lights.
Near misses don't make it into statistics, it's only when there is an increase in actual incidents that action will be taken.

ironclaw

grogi wrote: »

"If you cause accident, you'll be at fault" - that's self explanatory, isn't it?

Let me rephrase it, in an accident report scenario, the OP is potentially handing themselves to the other party if they can prove the OP was in the left lane when they should have been in the right. Imagine I had a dash-cam and show myself in the correct right lane, my indicator is on to take the exit, suddenly, I'm rear ended or side swiped on my left, was the OP undertaking me? Makes for awkward questioning and again, its really poor driving.

If one is changing a lane (from right to left in this case) and assume there is nobody there, he is doing it wrong. You must yield to the traffic in the lane you are changing to, regardless where they entered that lane or where they are going to.

Correct but it doesn't take away from the fact that he is knowingly driving outside established conventions. On the M50, I expect all passing traffic to come over my right shoulder. Whilst I would never blindly pull out in any respect and give due care in all regards, expecting the unexpected, if someone decides to use the hard shoulder or lane one to undertake, and causes an accident, they are a contributing factor. And worst still, its an entirely avoidable accident.

Supergurrier

Christ me need a how to navigate roundabouts thread sticky methinks

grogi

ironclaw wrote: »

Correct but it doesn't take away from the fact that he is knowingly driving outside established conventions.

Any law trumps any unwritten or even written convention.

ironclaw wrote: »

On the M50, I expect all passing traffic to come over my right shoulder. Whilst I would never blindly pull out in any respect and give due care in all regards, expecting the unexpected, if someone decides to use the hard shoulder or lane one to undertake, and causes an accident, they are a contributing factor. And worst still, its an entirely avoidable accident.

Undertaking is not allowed. If a collision happens when you change a lane and hit an undertaker, the fault would be shared, as both of the drivers broke the law. You did not yield and he/she undertook.

The difference is that going around the RB in the left lane is not disallowed. So regardless of any convention, a person doing so would not brake a law and in case of collision it is only the one changing the lane that will be at fault.

I'll say it again - ignoring a convention is antisocial - but is not illegal.

Seth Brundle

grogi wrote: »

What should happen is the left lane disapearing after exit B (and E), right becoming left and new lane appearing in the centre. Add mild lane barriers, such as slightly raised lines - and ambiguity disappears.

But Irish road engineers keep using the archaic design of a roundabout - and we see the results. Confusion and ambiguity.

Where would someone coming from Clane for Enfield position themselves at the top of their slip road?

grogi

kbannon wrote: »

Where would someone coming from Clane for Enfield position themselves at the top of their slip road?

Right lane - sings would have to be erected.

shane b

Heading from Clane for Enfield I would have thought left lane, seeing Enfield would be the second exit.

nailer54321

A rule of thumb is first and second exits use left lane third/fourth etc lanes use right lane when entering roundabout. The standard of driving in this country is deplorable, also the standard of a lot of driving instructors leaves a lot to be desired. The m50 for example everyday is like a racing track with cars swiving in and out causing everyone else to hit there breaks which in turn slows everything down. As was said a simple marking on the road when entering a roundabout would solve this issue out very quickly but as for the standard of driving, well that will take a lot more to in prove that. Maybe more policing would be a start and severe penalties for offending drivers, we need to start somewhere. No point on reporting on news bulletins that the number of deaths on the roads are going up if there is no one doing anything about it.

Eric Cartman

change lanes between exit b&c , right lane before B , left after.

Seth Brundle

nailer54321 wrote: »

A rule of thumb is first and second exits use left lane third/fourth etc lanes use right lane when entering roundabout.

It depends on the roundabout. On many roundabouts, the second exit is beyond 12 O'clock in which case, the approach should be in the right lane.
However, in the Kilcock example that this thread is discussing, the bulk of traffic is heading over to one or four O'clock but by forcing traffic to queue in the right hand lane only, then the queue could easily extend onto the mainline motorway.

nailer54321

The queue should not build up back on to the motorway if cars at The second and third exit do not jump out and block cars when the try to change lanes, it's down to people not knowing how to drive on a roundabouts, it down to bad teaching, bad driving, boy racers etc, it's beyond me how some people get driving licences. Saying that a lot of people drive without having full licences and no 'L' plates displayed, it's very easy to spot these, due to the mistakes that they make when driving. We need more policing of this if they want to get the number of deaths on the road down, not just a media story every few months about road deaths when it is a slow day for news.

GTE

You can see why the left laners get annoyed at the right laners. I am speaking only with respect to taking the Enfield exit in this.

At peak times, it is normally the case that the westbound M4 exit ramp splits into two lanes well before the road markings do. As most drivers take the left lane, for right or wrong reasons, the right lane is usually fairly empty. For the left laners who are there for the wrong reasons, it can seem that the right laners are trying to skip the queue; this looks to be what causes the really dangerous driving of the left laner speeding up when the right laner tries to merge in.

As a right laner who has been frustrated to the point of being extremely strict with those problematic left laners with respect to merging, I am a disappointed that the recent resurfacing of the junction has not included a change in the road markings. The resurfacing is that the whole roundabout has been covered in the yellow sandy stuff which gives you better grip. Having experience many left laners speed up even before the Clane exit in order not to be beaten by a right laner to the Enfield exit, I do wonder what this extra grip will do to make the situation worse; though I very much appreciate that only a minority of left laners are dumb enough to try and get one up on the right laners.

The problematic left laners who try and block the correct merging of right laners are in the somewhat sizeable minority. The rest of the left laners seem to be okay with letting the right laners in.

It can be very problematic when the road is quite busy, trying to merge in for the Enfield exit.

I do not feel that the two lane Enfield exit idea alone would work, as there are actually a surprising amount of drivers exiting the M4 who left lane all the way to the Kilcock exit too! Significant signage is probably the way to go, maybe coupled with a second exit lane for Enfield. With that said, I very much hate solutions like this where the ignorance of road users is not tackled from education up. I say that as any signage would be just a set of instructions which I am sure many drivers not in the know would perceived just to be instructions specific to that junction; sadly you cant have phrasing like "cop on and use the correct lane, like for any roundabout" on the signs.

OldmanMondeo

twin_beacon wrote: »

The probably logic being, that if a driver left the M4 west bound, they are not going to get back onto the same road (thats probably true 99.9% of the time).

There is no logic on roundabouts in Ireland, with saying that, you can not be sure where people have come from so to ignore an exit on that basis is wrong.
I also also use that roundabout everyday and come across the same problem.

I would go with, right hand lane and then enter the left hand lane when past the M4 slip back on. TBH you can sometime tell the ones who want to go left hand lane all the way, so I try and get in front of them and hold them back to let people using the roundabout properly in when needed.

liam7831

Why don't people just take the Enfield exit further on if they are going to Enfield, not the kilcock one.

GTE

liam7831 wrote: »

Why don't people just take the Enfield exit further on if they are going to Enfield, not the kilcock one.

There is a toll between Kilcock and Enfield.

It is around 3 euro a go for a very short stretch of motorway usage and a fairly minimal time benefit.

One could argue it was put there strategically to catch the Enfield commuters in order to make extra money.

OldmanMondeo

liam7831 wrote: »

Why don't people just take the Enfield exit further on if they are going to Enfield, not the kilcock one.

As above the toil is €2.90 for a car, it adds up. For the €2.90 to Enfield your not saving much in time, to Kinnegad, the end of the toil, your looking at a 10 minute saving.

twin_beacon

exactly, its about a 10 min time saving. For commuters, taking the motorway every day for a week it works out at €29.

twin_beacon

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

TBH you can sometime tell the ones who want to go left hand lane all the way, so I try and get in front of them and hold them back to let people using the roundabout properly in when needed.

How is that a good idea? By slowing down the left lane you are causing a lot more issues for cars on the right lane trying to merge, as the right lane is going to clog up behind you. Cars will be forced to merge infront of you will then have to speed up, try to get into the left lane, and then break hard before taking the sharp left turn when they exit for Enfield. Trying to merge anywhere behind you would be extra hard, as the lane is now clogged up with traffic.