Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust...

frag420

..except when the church decides they wont allow it?

"It is not permitted to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewellery or other objects," the document said.


What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

Why is it an issue now all of a sudden? Can the Church demand the ashes from someone if they find out they are being kept on a mantle piece or if someone intends to scatter them in a field!?

uck51js9zml2yt

frag420 wrote: »

..except when the church decides they wont allow it?

"It is not permitted to scatter the ashes of the faithful departed in the air, on land, at sea or in some other way, nor may they be preserved in mementos, pieces of jewellery or other objects," the document said.


What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

Why is it an issue now all of a sudden? Can the Church demand the ashes from someone if they find out they are being kept on a mantle piece or if someone intends to scatter them in a field!?

I assume its because they don't believe in an all powerful God who is able to pull the atoms of a person together in the resurrection of the dead!

Scripture does say we will be resurrected and have new bodies..it doesnt say God needs to pull our atoms together first. I'd suggest our new body has no relationship to our old one.

Right2Write

Heard that as well and thought it very strange. If the soul is the important part, then that is looked after in the religious ceremony and beliefs of those concerned. What's left are just bones and flesh. Of what interest is that to the church? Frankly it's none of their business what families choose to do with the ashes of their departed.

A little voice at the back of my head wonders if this is something to do with loss of revenue? Maybe some officials of the church and some cemeteries are feeling the cold wind as a result of loss of some income??

legrand

Mine are headed for the back-garden as instructed. My missus can deal with the local Bishop when he turns up at the door demanding my ashes repose at his place of worship. Me arse!

Right2Write

legrand wrote: »

Mine are headed for the back-garden as instructed. My missus can deal with the local Bishop when he turns up at the door demanding my ashes repose at his place of worship. Me arse!

Maybe you should arrange to send him an envelope with some, just so he doesn't feel left out and to be on the safe side A little bequest.

Cabaal

What happens if people spread them in religious places, knock, Croagh Patrick or the local church yard. Is that permitted or are they still against it?

Is it permitted if you make it worth their while perhaps?

kneemos

Most of the body if I'm right goes up the chimney,the ashes are just crushed bones.
Doesn't appear to be thought through or make much sense.

Apparently there is 3-7 pounds of material left.To make sense they would need to prohibit cremation completely.

Peregrinus

frag420 wrote: »

What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

The Catholic tradition is that human beings are creatures of both body and soul, and the material and spiritual dimensions of humanity are equally sacred. Human remains are therefore to be treated with respect. Plus, the way in which human remains are treated is an important sign of faith in the resurrection of the body. Keeping human remains in a place dedicated to that purpose is seen as fitting.

Ali Tasteless Cricket wrote: »

I assume its because they don't believe in an all powerful God who is able to pull the atoms of a person together in the resurrection of the dead!

The assumption doesn’t reflect well on you, I’m afraid. The omnipotence of God is the first item mentioned in the creed which Catholics, along with most other Christians, recite every Sunday. It requires a fairly high degree of ignorance about Christianity to “assume” that any Christian tradition don’t believe in an all-powerful God.

frag420 wrote: »

Why is it an issue now all of a sudden? Can the Church demand the ashes from someone if they find out they are being kept on a mantle piece or if someone intends to scatter them in a field!?

Dear me, no. There’s a big difference between suggesting how someone ought to behave, and asserting the right to make them behave that way. Nothing in the Instruction suggests the latter. The only sanction the instruction envisages is denial of a Christian funeral, and then only in cases where the deceased “has requested cremation and the scattering of their ashes for reasons contrary to the Christian faith”.

Right2Write wrote: »

Heard that as well and thought it very strange. If the soul is the important part . . .

That’s the point at which your thinking goes astray. The souls is not “the important part”. If the incarnation teaches us nothing else, it teaches us that.

Cabaal wrote: »

What happens if people spread them in religious places, knock, Croagh Patrick or the local church yard. Is that permitted . . . ?

Close enough. According to the Instruction, ashes should be “laid to rest” or “reserved” in a “sacred place” such as a cemetery, a church or another areas set aside for the purpose. Whether spreading or scattering amounts to being “laid to rest” is, I suspect, a judgment that will be made locally.

ScumLord

frag420 wrote: »

What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

They don't want to miss out on all that funeral and grave digging money.

beach_walker

Right2Write wrote: »

Frankly it's none of their business what families choose to do with the ashes of their departed.

Most religions tend to have rules and teaching for their followers. In this instance, the Church are outlining one pertaining to the treatment of the body/remains after death. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that the body and soul are separate, rather that they're entwined, unlike what some posters here are putting forward, so having something like this is hardly surprising.

degrassinoel

My mother died and her remains were cremated about 5 months ago.

Her ashes, by her request were scattered in three different places, and a small amount is back here at home.

When we scattered the ashes, it was done with love, care and solemn dignity. Every bit as much and on a deeply personal level, even more than the church could ever provide us with.

Despite what the church have said today, and whatever anyone else thinks, to suddenly attempt to make the last wishes and resting place/s of the deceased not being on consecrated ground a bad thing, is disappointingly and frustratingly insulting to the friends and family who have no choice but to go through bereavement knowing their beloved departed's wishes can not be fulfilled because of their religion.

This is, in my humble opinion, is disrespectful to the departed, and disrespectful to their family and friends.

I'm actually pretty upset about hearing this in the news.
I actually think this kind of thing could turn people away from catholicism, it's certainly turned my stomach even thinking about it.

beach_walker

Losing your Mother is tough, condolences.

degrassinoel wrote: »

Despite what the church have said today, and whatever anyone else thinks, to suddenly attempt to make the last wishes and resting place/s of the deceased not being on consecrated ground a bad thing, is disappointingly and frustratingly insulting to the friends and family who have no choice but to go through bereavement knowing their beloved departed's wishes can not be fulfilled because of their religion.

I do not get this. Either they want to partake of what their religion teaches, or not.

D0NNELLY

This is the same as the <snip> extended warranty that came with my new car.

Once it's serviced at an approved dealer, they'll give a lifetime warranty on the paint work..

D0NNELLY

Of course it's nothing to do with the profits suffering due to, not only, more folk going for the cremation option, but of those, a sizeable portion going for the (free) option of scattering.

Nice memory for the relatives, not so nice for the coffers.

kneemos

beach_walker wrote: »

Most religions tend to have rules and teaching for their followers. In this instance, the Church are outlining one pertaining to the treatment of the body/remains after death. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that the body and soul are separate, rather that they're entwined, unlike what some posters here are putting forward, so having something like this is hardly surprising.

What about over 95% of the body going up the chimney ? They're losing the rag over a handful of calcified bone ashes.
This is why it points to some ulterior motive or they don't understand cremation.

degrassinoel

beach_walker wrote: »

Losing your Mother is tough, condolences.



I do not get this. Either they want to partake of what their religion teaches, or not.

Thanks.

They're changing where the goalposts are by coming up with this now rather than 50 years ago when it was deemed okay to cremate the remains here. There's also 50 years of deaths and cremated remains that are according to the church now,'doing it wrong..' Do ye not think that's a bit insulting to the families of the dead and disrespectful to the dead?

I think it is.

kneemos

There isn't even any human DNA left in those ashes.
Kind of wonder about the churches view and those who keep them. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=11&ved=0ahUKEwie0ozY5fjPAhUGDsAKHch0C4cQFgg7MAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cremation.com%2Fis-dna-still-retrievable-from-cremated-ashes%2F&usg=AFQjCNGPO5q389jKxcngqgcoKFYa7RhYFA

tommy2bad

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Of course it's nothing to do with the profits suffering due to, not only, more folk going for the cremation option, but of those, a sizeable portion going for the (free) option of scattering.

Nice memory for the relatives, not so nice for the coffers.

The church is losing nothing from ashes being scattered. The local council run the graveyards and they are the ones benefiting from the fee to open a grave. BTW this fee applies for burying ashes too, even if you only dig a hole with a trowel.
I presume the deceased. already had a funeral service before cremation so the church has had its cut. Oh and it turns out you have to buy a wooden box to be cremated, a cardboard one is not permitted. The accusation of money grabbing should be directed where it belongs, not at the church.

uck51js9zml2yt

Peregrinus wrote: »

T


The assumption doesn’t reflect well on you, I’m afraid. The omnipotence of God is the first item mentioned in the creed which Catholics, along with most other Christians, recite every Sunday. It requires a fairly high degree of ignorance about Christianity to “assume” that any Christian tradition don’t believe in an all-powerful God.


.

Just because some thing is in the creed and people say it at every mass, doesnt necesarily translate to them really believing it.

I can recite Grimms fairy tales every day and still not really believe them

Mrs OBumble

frag420 wrote: »

What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

Why is it an issue now all of a sudden? Can the Church demand the ashes from someone if they find out they are being kept on a mantle piece or if someone intends to scatter them in a field!?

If you really want to know, you should read the document. Full text of the English translation is available here (among other places): http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.ie/2016/10/in-new-doc-cdf-aims-to-bury-ashes.html

Cabaal wrote: »

What happens if people spread them in religious places, knock, Croagh Patrick or the local church yard. Is that permitted or are they still against it?

Is it permitted if you make it worth their while perhaps?

I don't know about Ireland, but the people who who run public places in most areas have rules saying that ashes cannot be scattered there - because otherwise many popular places would become most unpleasant because of the sheer amount of ash scattered. When a friend scattered his father in Princes St Gardens in Edinburgh, the exercise involved figuring out how to do it without the ground-staff noticing.




I'd assume that most of the people commenting here are as likely to follow today's document as they are to follow Catholic teaching about contraception. No matter what the church teaches about the topic.

Peregrinus

Ali Tasteless Cricket wrote: »

Just because some thing is in the creed and people say it at every mass, doesnt necesarily translate to them really believing it.

I can recite Grimms fairy tales every day and still not really believe them

Reciting them is not the same as professing belief in them, though, is it?

So when Catholics profess to believe in God, the Father almighty, you assume they're lying? Seriously?

LordSutch

Surely the practice of scattering ones ashes has been going on for years if not decades in the RC Church, so why has this pronouncement from the Pope only come to pass now? and what happens to all those RC souls that have already been scattered ?

D0NNELLY

They're getting an amnesty. Along with people lost at sea, organ donors and murder victims.

Advbrd

kneemos wrote: »

There isn't even any human DNA left in those ashes.
Kind of wonder about the churches view and those who keep them. https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=11&ved=0ahUKEwie0ozY5fjPAhUGDsAKHch0C4cQFgg7MAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cremation.com%2Fis-dna-still-retrievable-from-cremated-ashes%2F&usg=AFQjCNGPO5q389jKxcngqgcoKFYa7RhYFA

Ah, that can't be true. I'vs seen it on C.S.I. and N.C.I.S.

Peregrinus

Ah, well, if you're going to pick nits, it's not just the Roman Catholic Church that has canons dealing with this. Under the Canon Law of the Church of England, ashes must be "reverently disposed of" in a churchyard or other burial ground or another area designated for the purpose by the bishop, but not elsewhere. Furthermore, they should be disposed of by the minister, not by family members or friends, and ministers may take the view that scattering is not "reverent"; burial or immurement is required. I don't know what canons the Church of Ireland has on this subject, but I certainly wouldn't assume they have none. Orthodox Judaism and Islam both forbid cremation; Hinduism positively requires it.

If your point is simply that the church commonly called the Catholic Church isn't the only church that regards itself as catholic, yeah, we know that already. We also know that the church commonly called the Church of Ireland isn't the only church in Ireland. There are times, though, when mentioning these things is is unnecessary; if nobody is being confused, clarification is not needed.

Peregrinus

LordSutch wrote: »

Surely the practice of scattering ones ashes has been going on for years if not decades in the RC Church, so why has this pronouncement from the Pope only come to pass now? and what happens to all those RC souls that have already been scattered ?

Nothing happens. The Instruction doesn't suggest that scattering ashes has any implications for the souls of the deceased.

LordSutch

Peregrinus wrote: »

Under the Canon Law of the Church of England, ashes must be "reverently disposed of" in a churchyard or other burial ground or another area designated for the purpose by the bishop, but not elsewhere. Furthermore, they should be disposed of by the minister, not by family members or friends, and ministers may take the view that scattering is not "reverent"; burial or immurement is required....

Yeah, but surely the whole point of this story is that the Pope has made a point of making a media statement regarding the disposal of ones ashes! The Archbishop of Canterbury has not made such a statement. So it is specifically an RC pronouncement coming from the Pope.

lets accept that and move on please.

Peregrinus

This is hitting the news because the Catholic church has recently tweaked its rules on this. If other churches tweaked their rules, presumably that would hit the news too.

LordSutch

Lets not split hairs. I thought the Pope had made a statement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/25/catholic-church-bans-scattering-of-ashes-as-pantheism/

"A formal instruction, approved by Pope Francis, even forbids Catholics from keeping ashes in an urn at home, other than in “grave and exceptional cases”.

D0NNELLY

For exceptional cases, see, do as we say, not as we do.

Ie religious relics, heads in boxs etc..

Peregrinus

LordSutch wrote: »

Lets not split hairs. I thought the Pope had made a statement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/25/catholic-church-bans-scattering-of-ashes-as-pantheism/

"A formal instruction, approved by Pope Francis, even forbids Catholics from keeping ashes in an urn at home, other than in “grave and exceptional cases”.

An "instruction", in Catholic canon law, is a (fairly low-level) legislative instrument, not a press release. (Strictly speaking, an "instruction" is official guidance on how canon law should be applied.) There was also a press release, because the Holy See Press Office issues a daily bulletin which (among other things) notes all the official instruments issued. Presumably the media Vatican-watchers picked it up from that, and presumably the mainstream media picked it up from them.

If the Church of England amended or added to its rules on this (or any other) subject, presumably the Church of England Media Centre would issue some similar announcement. Whether the mainstream media would cover it would presumably depend on whether they consider the Church of England to be as newsworthy as the Catholic Church. In the Church of Ireland, this job would be done by the Church of Ireland Press Office but, again, their output might not get the same mainstream media attention as what comes out of the Vatican.

A point that hasn't emerged in most of the media coverage is that the Instruction doesn't tell Catholics what they are to do; it tells Bishops what they are to do (because bishops are the ones who administer Canon law). There's nothing in it to stop an individual Catholic from putting ashes on the mantelpiece or scattering them in the open air; he just won't get any co-operation from the church in doing so.

Mancomb Seepgood

I don't see what the fuss is here. The Catholic church has simply issued guidance to Catholics on how remains should be handled, presumably as it was thought that Catholics might find it helpful to have some guidance if they wanted to have the remains of their loved ones cremated. It in no way affects non-Catholics, and on a practical level Catholics cannot doubt ignore the guidance if they so wish. The notion that it is some type of plot to boost revenue via cemeteries is daft, frankly.

_Brian

I'd say it's killing the sale of plots in the graveyards, ~€2000 for a 6*3 plot, nice income.

kneemos

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

I don't see what the fuss is here. The Catholic church has simply issued guidance to Catholics on how remains should be handled, presumably as it was thought that Catholics might find it helpful to have some guidance if they wanted to have the remains of their loved ones cremated. It in no way affects non-Catholics, and on a practical level Catholics cannot doubt ignore the guidance if they so wish. The notion that it is some type of plot to boost revenue via cemeteries is daft, frankly.

Could be regarded as intrusive I suppose,and nit picky.
People presumably feel attached to their loved ones ashes, saying they can no longer keep them understandably causes some ire.
Have they mentioned anything about returning the zillions of relics about the place for proper burials ?

Mancomb Seepgood

_Brian wrote: »

I'd say it's killing the sale of plots in the graveyards, ~€2000 for a 6*3 plot, nice income.

I think graveyards (most of which are owned by local authorities) are still doing OK. I think that in most of the cremations that take place in Glasnevin, the ashes are interred at the cemetery, which presumably still comes at a cost while consuming less square footage.

_Brian

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

I think graveyards (most of which are owned by local authorities) are still doing OK. I think that in most of the cremations that take place in Glasnevin, the ashes are interred at the cemetery, which presumably still comes at a cost while consuming less square footage.

Outside the major urban areas the graveyards are church owned and the fees for plots goes directly into the church bank account. Our local church opens 20-30 new plots a year at €1500 a pop. The land was donated by a patron. Maintenance is done by employment schemes.

Advbrd

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

I think graveyards (most of which are owned by local authorities) are still doing OK. I think that in most of the cremations that take place in Glasnevin, the ashes are interred at the cemetery, which presumably still comes at a cost while consuming less square footage.

mickoneill31

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'd assume that most of the people commenting here are as likely to follow today's document as they are to follow Catholic teaching about contraception. No matter what the church teaches about the topic.

Post of the thread.

This makes no difference to atheists or followers of other faiths.

Al la carte Catholics will pick and choose this rule if it suits them.

True believers will just do what the Church says. This is one rule that doesn't interfere with anybody who isn't Catholic so it doesn't bother me.

Advbrd

kneemos wrote: »

Could be regarded as intrusive I suppose,and nit picky.
People presumably feel attached to their loved ones ashes, saying they can no longer keep them understandably causes some ire.
Have they mentioned anything about returning the zillions of relics about the place for proper burials ?

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the relics point is a good one. I always found the practice of bringing a bone on a world tour a bit distasteful.

Advbrd

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Post of the thread.

This makes no difference to atheists or followers of other faiths.

Al la carte Catholics will pick and choose this rule if it suits them.

True believers will just do what the Church says. This is one rulr that doesn't interfere with anybody who isn't Catholic so it doesn't bother me.

I disagree. There are plenty of true believers (catholics) who see a lot of the teachings of the catholic church as nonsense.

D0NNELLY

D0NNELLY wrote: »

This is the same as the <snip> extended warranty that came with my new car.

Apologies for any offence.

lazybones32

frag420 wrote: »

Why is it an issue now all of a sudden? Can the Church demand the ashes from someone if they find out they are being kept on a mantle piece or if someone intends to scatter them in a field!?

It's not an issue all of a sudden. The Church allows cremation for the faithful provided that cremation isn't made as an anti-Christian statement (so one won't return as a zombie; to return to Mother Earth; to be one with Gaia, etc). My guess is that we are very close to November, the month the Church pays particular attention to the departed members, so that is why it's been released now.
The Church never said it would demand ashes from anyone but that they would be correct in not providing a sacramental funeral for one who chooses cremation due to a non-Christian principle. The letter is aimed at the faithful members only and was never intended for anyone else.

frag420 wrote: »

What is the reasoning behind this? What difference does it make where the ashes are stored?

Some of the reasons are outlined in the document which has been linked by another user but also because the body was a temple of the holy Spirit and is deserving of honour even though it is no longer animated. The body will be resurrected - according to Christian teaching - and is not something to be discarded as having no purpose in God's plan.

LordSutch

Advbrd wrote: »

I disagree. There are plenty of true believers (catholics) who see a lot of the teachings of the catholic church as nonsense.

So then, they are probably Protestant in their thinking? ...being catholic, but not controlled by Rome.

frag420

lazybones32 wrote: »

It's not an issue all of a sudden. The Church allows cremation for the faithful provided that cremation isn't made as an anti-Christian statement (so one won't return as a zombie; to return to Mother Earth; to be one with Gaia, etc). My guess is that we are very close to November, the month the Church pays particular attention to the departed members, so that is why it's been released now.
The Church never said it would demand ashes from anyone but that they would be correct in not providing a sacramental funeral for one who chooses cremation due to a non-Christian principle. The letter is aimed at the faithful members only and was never intended for anyone else.



Some of the reasons are outlined in the document which has been linked by another user but also because the body was a temple of the holy Spirit and is deserving of honour even though it is no longer animated. The body will be resurrected - according to Christian teaching - and is not something to be discarded as having no purpose in God's plan.

You mean like rising from the dead?

But sure is not one of the central building blocks of Christian belief based on someone rising from the dead?

lazybones32

yup yup...any of the Romero films is exactly what the Resurrection will be like....

Peregrinus

frag420 wrote: »

You mean like rising from the dead?

But sure is not one of the central building blocks of Christian belief based on someone rising from the dead?

Yes, but not as a zombie.

The risen Jesus is believed to be fully alive. Zombies are undead. Spot the difference?

frag420

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, but not as a zombie.

The risen Jesus is believed to be fully alive. Zombies are undead. Spot the difference?

Yes the difference is I refuse to believe a dead person can rise from the dead and some people believe it can happen...but only if it's Jesus,everyone else is a zombie!?

Cabaal

lazybones32 wrote: »

yup yup...any of the Romero films is exactly what the Resurrection will be like....

Honestly

Eamondomc

In our area we dig our neighbours graves when they die usually, I have been at the digging of a few and in some of the older graves people were buried before and in any cases I have been involved in the older body is still there, disintegrated coffins, skeletal remains, have been involved in bagging them and reinterring the bag when filling in the grave again.
I've seen no evidence yet of a ressurected body!
I cant see what all the hoohaa is about really.

Jellybaby1

Eamondomc wrote: »

In our area we dig our neighbours graves when they die usually, I have been at the digging of a few and in some of the older graves people were buried before and in any cases I have been involved in the older body is still there, disintegrated coffins, skeletal remains, have been involved in bagging them and reinterring the bag when filling in the grave again.
I've seen no evidence yet of a ressurected body!
I cant see what all the hoohaa is about really.

'Bagging them' ?? Sounds horrible. Is this normal procedure and do your neighbours know their ancestors are 'bagged'?

Cabaal

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

'Bagging them' ?? Sounds horrible. Is this normal procedure and do your neighbours know their ancestors are 'bagged'?

What do you want them to do, buy a whole new coffin and put them in that?

Most people don't have a monkeys about what happens with dead body's, they talk about respect and dignity towards the body but meanwhile they allow people they pay to superglue lips and eyes and in some cases pump the body full of toxic chemicals just so the body "keeps".