Good(ish) article on particpation

UM1

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-dangers-of-it-s-the-taking-part-that-counts-1.2713648?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Medals for everyone....

walshb

I am a firm believer in praise and encouragement and constructive-subtle criticism, but what is probably most defeating and illogical is praising and over-praising for the sake of it. It doesn't help, and comes across as insincere, which even young children can pick up on.

RayCun

the kid was four!

OMG, I've just realised - when my kid was four she drew a picture and I said it was very good, EVEN THOUGH IT WASN'T ACTUALLY VERY GOOD!

No wonder she joined ISIS...

sconhome

It's the entering a half marathon but only running 10k and looking for a medal that is the splinter under my nail. :mad:

I do think it is different with children under say 8 or 10 years it should be about more inclusivity in sport than all out competition but woe betide the future run by adults from the participation generation.

kit3

Kids are a fairly copped on lot in general. I'm all for as much praise as you can give them - if you don't help to build their self esteem who will ? In terms of medals though, as they get older they learn to distinguish between the ones they get for participation & the ones that are earned. The ones that are hard earned mean so much more to them.

Chivito550

I have never met an adult who received adulation or reward in the absence of achievement. Yes, achievement is relative, but in the adult world it’s relative to your peers.

She's not up to speed on the running scene then!

Dubgal72

Woman hasn't a ****ing clue. Four year old's heads smell of sweat and farts.

kit3

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Woman hasn't a ****ing clue. Four year old's heads smell of sweat and farts.

Hmm, shampoo ??

vanderlyle

I think the guy from the comment under the article hits the nail on the head. At least for kids anyway.

Kids aren't stupid though. They know who the best players are, and the real reward comes in the form of peer recognition and the status that goes with it.

ultrapercy

vanderlyle wrote: »

I think the guy from the comment under the article hits the nail on the head. At least for kids anyway.

He's right about that, it's the adults we need to worry about.

RuMan

vanderlyle wrote: »

I think the guy from the comment under the article hits the nail on the head. At least for kids anyway.

He's right about that.

The problem I have is some kids might be more talented in sports then academically. By giving medals to all you're saying the kid who is good at sports talents matter less. We don't give 100% to everyone in a Maths test why do it for Sports ?

A healthy level of competition is important in my view, particularly for young boys. More competition should be used to increase educational attainment for young boys in my view.

RayCun

There's lots to be said about kids and competition, about some kids being more competitive and others less, about kids who discouraged when they lose (and all kids will lose sometimes), about the role of positive reinforcement, about the balance to be drawn between competition and skills development...

... but it was a four year old girl getting a medal. Going from that to Harrison Bergeron and unqualified surgeons suggests that the author (and some commenters) had an axe to grind and seized on an excuse for a rant

Chivito550

RuMan wrote: »

He's right about that.

The problem I have is some kids might be more talented in sports then academically. By giving medals to all you're saying the kid who is good at sports talents matter less. We don't give 100% to everyone in a Maths test why do it for Sports ?

A healthy level of competition is important in my view, particularly for young boys. More competition should be used to increase educational attainment for young boys in my view.

Not sure why you specifically mention boys. It should be no different for girls.

Other than that, I agree with your post. You never see participation medals and kudos given to somebody who gets 30% in an Irish or Maths exam, but a lazy kid who half arses his way through PE is to be applauded?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Other than that, I agree with your post. You never see participation medals and kudos given to somebody who gets 30% in an Irish or Maths exam, but a lazy kid who half arses his way through PE is to be applauded?

PE classes don't give participation medals, and PE teachers don't generally applaud kids for half-arsing anything. "Could do better" is never meant as praise.

demfad

RayCun wrote: »

There's lots to be said about kids and competition, about some kids being more competitive and others less, about kids who discouraged when they lose (and all kids will lose sometimes), about the role of positive reinforcement, about the balance to be drawn between competition and skills development...

... but it was a four year old girl getting a medal. Going from that to Harrison Bergeron and unqualified surgeons suggests that the author (and some commenters) had an axe to grind and seized on an excuse for a rant

I'd agree with that. Give your child a participation medal and you're in danger of being operated on by Cletus from the Simpsons a few years down the line.

She says also that:
"However, if playing for its own sake is the ethos we wish to instil in children, then playing should be its own reward."

The same should hold true for winning:
'If winning for its own sake is the ethos we wish to instill in children, then winning should be its own reward."

She doesn't really address this. Her assumption seems to be that winning trumps all. She would need to substantiate that. Collaboration, team work etc. are hugely important skills for children to understand. So kids of 4 playing as a team together all get rewarded regardless of whose team wins.
I see that as positive.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

PE classes don't give participation medals, and PE teachers don't generally applaud kids for half-arsing anything. "Could do better" is never meant as praise.

You know what I mean though! The "everyone's a winner" attitude never seems to spread to academics.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

You know what I mean though! The "everyone's a winner" attitude never seems to spread to academics.

I think you're arguing with something that exists in your head rather than something you have direct experience of, and it's "backslapping culture as exists on boards and the Runners Support Page" rather than what happens in schools and juvenile sports.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

I think you're arguing with something that exists in your head rather than something you have direct experience of, and it's "backslapping culture as exists on boards and the Runners Support Page" rather than what happens in schools and juvenile sports.

I wasn't specifically talking about kids alone.

RuMan

RayCun wrote: »

I think you're arguing with something that exists in your head rather than something you have direct experience of, and it's "backslapping culture as exists on boards and the Runners Support Page" rather than what happens in schools and juvenile sports.

Don't think it exists for the kids. They know who won and who didn't ,medal or no medal.

Why are we rewarding "participating" in sports anyway . Is sports a punishment ?

You may as well give people a medal for turning up for a Maths exam.

RayCun

RuMan wrote: »

Why are we rewarding "participating" in sports anyway . Is sports a punishment ? You may as well give people a medal for turning up for a Maths exam.

Kids don't get rewards for turning up for PE class either.

When kids of that age do something outside school - art classes, sports, drama - their efforts are usually praised and they often get something at the end as a reminder and to lock in that positive feeling so they'll come back again.

kit3

RuMan wrote: »

Don't think it exists for the kids. They know who won and who didn't ,medal or no medal.

Why are we rewarding "participating" in sports anyway . Is sports a punishment ?

You may as well give people a medal for turning up for a Maths exam.

Giving kids a medal up to a certain age (7/8 maybe ? ) is a positive thing in my view. It certainly serves as a form of encouragement in a young child. However, you are right in that they still know who won and who didn't. The value of a medal changes as they get older. In my experience they value medals that are truly won and hard earned and can take or leave the participation ones.

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

Kids don't get rewards for turning up for PE class either.

When kids of that age do something outside school - art classes, sports, drama - their efforts are usually praised and they often get something at the end as a reminder and to lock in that positive feeling so they'll come back again.

I have never received a medal for showing up for a job interview, nor have I received one for showing up to a professional exam.

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

I have never received a medal for showing up for a job interview, nor have I received one for showing up to a professional exam.

I see we're moving again from the subject of the article - a four year old girl - and kids in general, to those evil ****ers in RSP. :rolleyes:

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

I see we're moving again from the subject of the article - a four year old girl - and kids in general, to those evil ****ers in RSP. :rolleyes:

Not once did I mention RSP.

kit3

RayCun wrote: »

I see we're moving again from the subject of the article - a four year old girl - and kids in general, to those evil ****ers in RSP. :rolleyes:

Getting a bit confused here - the discussion had evolved to take in what happens in relation to academia ?

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

Not once did I mention RSP.

No. You just talked about doing things as an adult for your career without getting a medal.
With the obvious implication that there are some adults who expect medals for things, and aren't they just awful?

Chivito550

RayCun wrote: »

No. You just talked about doing things as an adult for your career without getting a medal.
With the obvious implication that there are some adults who expect medals for things, and aren't they just awful?

Seems like the only one who is arguing with something inside one's own head is yourself!

What I'm saying goes far beyond specific examples of RSP, medals, kids or whatever. It's the general attitude among the general population that if you are sh1t academically or at your job that's bad, but if you are sh1t when it comes to sport, it's a case of well done for being out there.

RayCun

kit3 wrote: »

Getting a bit confused here - the discussion had evolved to take in what happens in relation to academia ?

Evolved, in the sense that one thing was said, and then another thing was said, and now they are somehow connected?

Kids don't get medals for doing badly in academic subjects in school.
Neither do they get medals for doing badly in PE.

Kids often get praised, and get medals (or medal-like-things) when they do sports activities outside school.
Kids of that age also get the same kind of praise and rewards for non-sports activities outside school.

Whether or not everyone gets medals, kids are well aware of which kids are doing better in sports - the ones doing better and the ones doing worse. But as everyone knows, the only way to improve at something is to keep trying. Praising a kid for their effort, even when their performance is terrible, can bring them back to try again and get better. A medal (or a badge, or a certificate, or a pencil) is a physical form of praise. It will wear thin after a while if they don't feel themselves that they're improving, but for kids just starting out it can be effective.

And for this reason, the period when all kids get medals is fairly short. Club competitions, community games, school athletics - by 8, 9, 10, kids are familiar with not making teams, not making it through heats, other people getting medals and not them.

kit3

kit3 wrote: »

Giving kids a medal up to a certain age (7/8 maybe ? ) is a positive thing in my view. It certainly serves as a form of encouragement in a young child. However, you are right in that they still know who won and who didn't. The value of a medal changes as they get older. In my experience they value medals that are truly won and hard earned and can take or leave the participation ones.

RayCun wrote: »

Evolved, in the sense that one thing was said, and then another thing was said, and now they are somehow connected?

Kids don't get medals for doing badly in academic subjects in school.
Neither do they get medals for doing badly in PE.

Kids often get praised, and get medals (or medal-like-things) when they do sports activities outside school.
Kids of that age also get the same kind of praise and rewards for non-sports activities outside school.

Whether or not everyone gets medals, kids are well aware of which kids are doing better in sports - the ones doing better and the ones doing worse. But as everyone knows, the only way to improve at something is to keep trying. Praising a kid for their effort, even when their performance is terrible, can bring them back to try again and get better. A medal (or a badge, or a certificate, or a pencil) is a physical form of praise. It will wear thin after a while if they don't feel themselves that they're improving, but for kids just starting out it can be effective.

And for this reason, the period when all kids get medals is fairly short. Club competitions, community games, school athletics - by 8, 9, 10, kids are familiar with not making teams, not making it through heats, other people getting medals and not them.

I think if you look at my post above you will find that we agree

RayCun

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's the general attitude among the general population that if you are sh1t academically or at your job that's bad, but if you are sh1t when it comes to sport, it's a case of well done for being out there.

Because school is a requirement, and having money is a requirement, and sport is a hobby.
If you're **** at school or get fired from your job, that will have a massive impact on the rest of your life.
You could be **** at sports but have a happy, fulfilled life with a hobby of gardening, or hillwalking, or community theatre. You can be **** at sports and do it anyway because you enjoy it.

Most of the time, when people get praise it's not because they continue to do something at the same standard they've been doing it for ages. It's because they've improved at something, or started doing something new. None of my friends are impressed when I go for a run, but if I performed in a choir I'd get plenty of praise, including from people who are much better singers than me.

RayCun

if you are sh1t academically

for example, if we took a poll on the academic achievements of everyone posting on this forum, I'd bet "passed the leaving cert" or "passed the junior cert" would not come in for loads of praise.

But if someone who dropped out of school as a kid went back and sat those exams, they'd get loads of praise. Not because they are academically excellent, but because they are doing something that they find difficult and making an effort to improve themselves.

sconhome

Chivito550 wrote: »

..but if you are sh1t when it comes to sport, it's a case of well done for being out there.

Just focusing on this one word and its interpretation for a second.

In my opinion this is the crux of the matter and understanding that where you come from (I think) is a competitive involvement in sport and comparing that with participation involvement in sport as per the general population.

Pedantic but there is a big difference in how people look at it.

I grew up to be competitive at sport (was never very good and not a winner) and the only reward for participation and giving it your all was being picked for the team again the following week. I know people with my mindset for example struggle to understand the idea of participation rewards but at the risk of insulting an entire population, a lot of people who thrive on participation medals would otherwise not get involved in sport at any level.

Unfortunately it is very much a reward for getting off the couch but that is the nature of the beast and we do have to learn to life with it.

RayCun

I think you have to make a distinction between beginners and more experienced people.
If you started your team sport at 8 or 9, sconhome, there was probably an extended period where everyone got game time, games were low-stakes, there was more emphasis on fun. As things went on you were expected to train more, train harder, and only make the team if you were good enough. That's the period you think of now, but if it was like that when you started you probably wouldn't have stayed long enough in the sport to be any good at it.

New runners like to have that tangible sign of achievement. The more you get, the less exciting they are.

sconhome

RayCun wrote: »

I think you have to make a distinction between beginners and more experienced people.
If you started your team sport at 8 or 9, sconhome, there was probably an extended period where everyone got game time, games were low-stakes, there was more emphasis on fun. As things went on you were expected to train more, train harder, and only make the team if you were good enough. That's the period you think of now, but if it was like that when you started you probably wouldn't have stayed long enough in the sport to be any good at it.

New runners like to have that tangible sign of achievement. The more you get, the less exciting they are.

Unfortunately, I'm of an age where sport was not about fun, it was all competition. You had fun if you were good at it. Kids, siblings and family were very often played off one an other - yes it fires competitiveness in one way but as you say can push kids out of sport.

Christian Brother schooling where sport was compulsory and you could be on the sideline for a game. No sympathy game time. Even local hurling, football and soccer was 'serious'.

Nowadays (and rightly so) all kids sports are done about fun and less skills based teaching. Just let them run or chase a ball. Yes, kids are naturally competitive and as every parent knows kids recognise very quickly that Johnny or Mary is "better than them". I think this should be nurtured and managed but not in the way of OAP's (Overly Ambitious Parents) driving unhealthy competition.

There is a vast distinction between the two topics of raising and coaching kids to enjoy & develop in sport including, as you say, participation rewards (kids BTW don't go hanging these medals up, they recognise that they mean nothing really) and those adults who cherish or demand a reward for taking part.

It would be a very interesting discussion on psychology.

BTW Chivito550 I passed up on the option of a medal at the Brooks 10k on Sunday last but made darn sure I got my T-shirt

NiallBoo

I think the medals are good up to a certain age.

Kids are learning all the time. You have to give them a chance to learn that lots of the things they'll get most out of just aren't that fun at first.

It's up to adults to help make those things fun and help the kids get some gratification from them.

In terms of development in sport it's crucial. Even if some kids seem much better at a young age, there's really not much difference and even the most clumsy kids have plenty of time to catch up and surpass them.

that's where the problem is - because of this meaningless initial difference in skill, the better kids get praise and gratification and the other ones don't. This leads to the initially better kids putting in more work and many of the other ones giving up. So what was a small difference becomes a big one and everyone suffers because the sport is left weaker than it could be.