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Sex and Religion

  • 13-05-2015 8:09pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭


    Okay so I am a 20 year old Roman Catholic. I admit that I don't have the strongest faith nor do people in my family. We go to Mass every week, but that's kind of the extent of it if you know what I mean.

    Recently I stumbled upon what is known as a mortal sin when looking up sex before marraige. I'm a virgin and can barely hold a conversation with a girl at the moment but my point is that knowingly having sex before marraige will send you to hell unless you repent.

    I didn't know any of this until now and I just don't know what to think. I feel like I am on the fence between two worlds. The first is one where we live so we don't go to hell, which I fear greatly. The second is the secular, modern world where (due to low self esteem) look for validation from people.

    Sorry for making this long but I hope you see my dilemma. It's not like I plan on having sex anytime soon, but let's face it; generally young people nowadays are more liberal and there is a stigma around sex after marraige. Secondly, I don't feel myself, I suddenly fear this huge fear that I am going to hell.


Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Don't be afraid, the religion you subscribe to is all a load of nonsense. You're not going to hell, because hell doesn't exist. It was created specifically so young people like yourself would be too scared to satisfy perfectly natural urges, like sex.

    Do yourself a favour, close the bible, and put it someone far far away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    You're not going to go to hell. Do whatever feels right for you, don't look to the bible as a step by step guide on how to live your life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    OP, rest assured that 99.9% of couples walking down the aisle after getting married are not virgins on their wedding night. If you're going to hell, you'll see a lot of familiar faces there!
    The vast majority pay lip service to the whole religion thing, & live their life as they please. Once you're kind to others generally,& try not to hurt people, I can't see that God will have any issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭iusedtoknow


    manyoung wrote: »
    Okay so I am a 20 year old Roman Catholic. I admit that I don't have the strongest faith nor do people in my family. We go to Mass every week, but that's kind of the extent of it if you know what I mean.

    Recently I stumbled upon what is known as a mortal sin when looking up sex before marraige. I'm a virgin and can barely hold a conversation with a girl at the moment but my point is that knowingly having sex before marraige will send you to hell unless you repent.

    I didn't know any of this until now and I just don't know what to think. I feel like I am on the fence between two worlds. The first is one where we live so we don't go to hell, which I fear greatly. The second is the secular, modern world where (due to low self esteem) look for validation from people.

    Sorry for making this long but I hope you see my dilemma. It's not like I plan on having sex anytime soon, but let's face it; generally young people nowadays are more liberal and there is a stigma around sex after marraige. Secondly, I don't feel myself, I suddenly fear this huge fear that I am going to hell.

    you have to decide on what is more important to you. Adhering, not only to the bible (and all it's contradictions) coupled with the added rules and regulations that the catholic church has and living your life in fear of hell....or living your life how you want to live it.

    I know which one I would (already have..) choose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Ah jaysus I'm seriously doomed then. Did they mention anything about one night stands ? Is there a place after hell cause I'm up **** creek then.
    Seriously op that kind of rubbish belongs to an older generation who really believed that crap.
    Are there any single mothers or unmarried couples with kids living in your area? Do you think they are going to hell because they 1) had sex outside marriage and 2) had a child outside marriage?
    Put away the bible and go out and educate yourself in the REAL world


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭silverfeather


    I am pagan. Find a religion (if you feel you are spiritual) that is nurturing not repressive. Would you live in a repressive relationship?

    Would you live in a repressive country?
    Sex is sacred.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    I'm a lapsed catholic so maybe I'm not the best person to advice. Anyway, here are my thoughts.
    Organised religions (not just catholicism) aren't just about following a god. They also have rules and regulations which were created by humans for a specific purpose. Social control. A lot of the 10 commandments make perfect sense and are the sort of rules that any decent society should have. There's nothing much wrong with being told not to kill, not to steal, not to cheat on your spouse or be eyeing up your neighbour's missus.

    When it comes to sexual matters, it was all about the catholic church producing as many children as possible and keeping families together. Why else would they say contraception is bad? They want to have women having 10 kids so that the place will be flooded with catholic children and they can outbreed the other religions. They don't want couples to divorce because in the church's eyes a family headed by a married couple is the one to have. The no sex before marriage rule was again a way of controlling people and ensuring that no babies would come along before they were married.

    The catholic church has been adding and changing rules all through its history. They're all man-made rules created by the clergy at various times to suit their agenda. At one stage priests could marry, for example. That rule was changed because it was getting messy. So do you think that people who are Church of Ireland are going to go to hell then? Not to mention Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists.. The people of those religions believe, just like you, that the church they're a member of is the right one. The rules are different in each one but the end goal is the same. They all pray to God/Jesus.

    Some of the biggest hypocrites I've ever come across in my time were the ones who'd be the first into the church on the Sunday and be handing out communion or sending the offertory plate around. Yet they'd be not very nice people the rest of the week. Why should they automatically be let straight into heaven ahead of people who didn't keep to the rules of the catholic church but lived good lives and did nobody any harm. At the extreme end of the scale, do you believe that those kiddy fiddling priests and nuns who ran orphanages and laundries are sitting on clouds playing harps now, just because they never worse a condom or had sex?

    The catholic church in this country did so much wrong and so much harm to people, that anyone who blindly follows their teaching needs to stop and have a good hard think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,630 ✭✭✭gline


    Good BBC documentary to watch: sex and the church. It shows you exactly where all the christian sex laws came from, during the setting up of this religion... man-made, mix of other rules from previous cultures. Live your life the way you want, dont let a book enslave you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭bp


    It is a personal choice but eating meat on a Friday = hell, getting a tattoo = hell, checking out a hot person who us married = hell....does alcohol still equal hell???

    Moral of the above is that a lot of things will lead you to hell. I think being a good person, respecting others, being kind etc are more surfire ways to heaven (if you believe) than others.

    Although I am technically RC I dont subscribe to the religion as I find it sexist and outdated...written by men to suit their needs. what I would like to believe is that there is a higher power and when we die we go somewhere.

    But how dare a book tell me to keep having children I cannot afford, to be a second class citizen to men!

    Sorry rant over - do what you feel most comfortable with and good luck.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Hey OP - You go to mass and are RC because that's what you where born into.
    I think anyone with a modicum of sense and intelligence if they look at organised religion will come to the conclusion the whole thing is highly suspect.

    By the sounds of it you did not believe in any of this nonsense before why start now!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    I was the same when I was young. Brought up RC and then read about how sex before marriage was a sin and I thought...fuuuck.

    Then I spent seven years studying Christian and Jewish history and Religion. A lot of the posts on here might say to you that your religion is nonsense and to abandon it. That's a fairly extreme response to someone who clearly has some kind of faith. However, they are correct to point out that many of these sins and rules within the faith are man-made. There is a very strong fear of sexuality in the semetic tradition, so much so that the early Christians, in a bid to separate their Messiah from the stain of sexuality, made Jesus effectively an asexual being (unmarried, unsexed, even conceived without sexual intercourse apparently).

    Now, none of that is to say that Christianity is entirely bogus. You can figure that out for yourself. But it is to point out that it is a religion created, ruled, and administered by humans so if it tells you not to have sex before marriage, make sure you realise that it's a bunch of men telling you that and not God. It's a bunch of men saying what they believe God wants and you can only trust it so far as you trust those men.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 201 ✭✭catonthewire


    Religion is a choice, if you choose to follow a faith then no-one has the right to make you feel uncomfortable for doing so, or write it off as outdated ect...
    Many people practice a faith, but also recognise that as humans we are sexual beings, fully entitled to explore our sexuality and needs without being made to feel dirty or sinful....

    If you look at any bible , where exactly does it say that GOD said sex was sinful before marriage?....
    It doesn't, this notion was developed by CHURCHES, using this to control their flock, reinforcing their belief that CHRIST was a chaste man and MARY was a virgin..

    Sex before marriage isn't a SIN, yes there are people who for faith reasons CHOOSE to wait until they are married, but, you are free to do as you please...
    Live your life as it pleases you, explore your sexuality, it's s important to be sexualy happy as it is to be spiritualy happy...


  • Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    What's your priest like, OP? very few of them these days are the bible-thumpers of old, and quite a lot of them are very down to earth and great at sounding out moral dilemmas and theological questions on.

    I'm atheist (formerly RCC) and had a great chat with the local PP a few years ago on an issue, and he came across as first and foremost, a man who was passionate for an inclusive and accepting community of all faiths and creeds in his parish, he knew his stuff about theology, but knew when it mattered and when it didn't. And he isn't the only one. I've met quite a few over the years like that. And I say that as someone who cannot stand the RCC.

    ETA: there is a Christianity forum here on Boards that you could discuss this issue with likeminded people who have faced the same dilemma.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Mousewar wrote: »
    I was the same when I was young. Brought up RC and then read about how sex before marriage was a sin and I thought...fuuuck.

    Then I spent seven years studying Christian and Jewish history and Religion. A lot of the posts on here might say to you that your religion is nonsense and to abandon it. That's a fairly extreme response to someone who clearly has some kind of faith. However, they are correct to point out that many of these sins and rules within the faith are man-made. There is a very strong fear of sexuality in the semetic tradition, so much so that the early Christians, in a bid to separate their Messiah from the stain of sexuality, made Jesus effectively an asexual being (unmarried, unsexed, even conceived without sexual intercourse apparently).

    Now, none of that is to say that Christianity is entirely bogus. You can figure that out for yourself. But it is to point out that it is a religion created, ruled, and administered by humans so if it tells you not to have sex before marriage, make sure you realise that it's a bunch of men telling you that and not God. It's a bunch of men saying what they believe God wants and you can only trust it so far as you trust those men.

    The entire book of the bible is man made, how do you distinguish what is god and what is some interpretation of man?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭MrWalsh


    The entire book of the bible is man made, how do you distinguish what is god and what is some interpretation of man?

    Religion itself in its entirety is man made.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    The entire book of the bible is man made, how do you distinguish what is god and what is some interpretation of man?

    I don't personally. The whole book is, as you say, man-made.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Christianity doesn't teach that if you slip up and sin (this is regardless of whether it is sex before marriage, stealing a bicycle, or murder) that you go to hell. It teaches that everyone sins, everyone is guilty and deserves to go to hell, but Jesus died on the cross so that you don't have to. That if you try your best not to sin, and you believe in Jesus and thanks him for the whole crucifixion/taking the sins of Man on himself thing, you are forgiven for the sins you do inevitably end up committing despite your best intentions and go straight to heaven. Even if you had sex before marriage, or smashed someone's head in with a pick axe, or coveted your neighbours ox.

    So whether Christianity is all a load of bollox, or its the ultimate Truth, no, you won't go to hell if you happen to ride some young one before you are married.

    So you're grand. Stop fretting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,138 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    I'm an atheist, so it's easy for me to scoff and say that your problem doesn't actually exist. Which to be honest, I did.

    But if you actually believe that sex before marriage is a mortal sin that will condemn you to hell unless you repent, then you have 3 choices:

    1. Have premarital sex and believe that you're going to hell.
    2. Have premarital sex, repent and believe that you're not going to hell.
    2. Don't have premarital sex and believe that you're not going to hell.

    A lot of Christians (and other religious people) choose number 3.

    You could also question your beliefs, and the beliefs of the Church, and see if they are something that you are actually have resaon to hold.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I am catholic but I don't believe everything the church teaches. I studied theology years ago and have read a lot and thought a lot about religion and spirituality. Firstly, current church teaching on hell is that it is a state of being apart from God and his love rather than a horrible place where there is fire etc. It is a deliberate turning of one's back to God's offer of eternal joy.

    Thinking about what you do with sincerity and conscience is not a turning of your back to God's love. So if you feel a deep and loving connection with someone and are not yet married and have a sexual relationship, this is not a mortal sin. It will not lead you into a state of rejection of God so therefore you do not have to fear the experience of hell if that is your choice. If you choose to live your life loving God and your fellow human beings that is what being a christian is all about. Traditional church teaching would not agree with me on this, but it is what I truly believe having considered it in great depth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    I'm a lapsed catholic so maybe I'm not the best person to advice. Anyway, here are my thoughts.
    Organised religions (not just catholicism) aren't just about following a god. They also have rules and regulations which were created by humans for a specific purpose. Social control. A lot of the 10 commandments make perfect sense and are the sort of rules that any decent society should have. There's nothing much wrong with being told not to kill, not to steal, not to cheat on your spouse or be eyeing up your neighbour's missus.

    When it comes to sexual matters, it was all about the catholic church producing as many children as possible and keeping families together. Why else would they say contraception is bad? They want to have women having 10 kids so that the place will be flooded with catholic children and they can outbreed the other religions. They don't want couples to divorce because in the church's eyes a family headed by a married couple is the one to have. The no sex before marriage rule was again a way of controlling people and ensuring that no babies would come along before they were married.

    The catholic church has been adding and changing rules all through its history. They're all man-made rules created by the clergy at various times to suit their agenda. At one stage priests could marry, for example. That rule was changed because it was getting messy. So do you think that people who are Church of Ireland are going to go to hell then? Not to mention Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists.. The people of those religions believe, just like you, that the church they're a member of is the right one. The rules are different in each one but the end goal is the same. They all pray to God/Jesus.

    Some of the biggest hypocrites I've ever come across in my time were the ones who'd be the first into the church on the Sunday and be handing out communion or sending the offertory plate around. Yet they'd be not very nice people the rest of the week. Why should they automatically be let straight into heaven ahead of people who didn't keep to the rules of the catholic church but lived good lives and did nobody any harm. At the extreme end of the scale, do you believe that those kiddy fiddling priests and nuns who ran orphanages and laundries are sitting on clouds playing harps now, just because they never worse a condom or had sex?

    The catholic church in this country did so much wrong and so much harm to people, that anyone who blindly follows their teaching needs to stop and have a good hard think.

    I get what you are saying about man-made rules etc. But is the Church not making these from their interpretation of the Bible? As in are they not making these rules based on the words of Jesus or is it about producing many Catholics as you say?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    manyoung wrote: »
    I get what you are saying about man-made rules etc. But is the Church not making these from their interpretation of the Bible? As in are they not making these rules based on the words of Jesus or is it about producing many Catholics as you say?

    Well Jesus is really only quoted in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John makes up a very small portion of the bible.

    Also they reckon the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John where attributed to these testimonies much later on perhaps 50 to 100 years after Christ so we are not quite sure who wrote them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    strobe wrote: »
    Christianity doesn't teach that if you slip up and sin (this is regardless of whether it is sex before marriage, stealing a bicycle, or murder) that you go to hell. It teaches that everyone sins, everyone is guilty and deserves to go to hell, but Jesus died on the cross so that you don't have to. That if you try your best not to sin, and you believe in Jesus and thanks him for the whole crucifixion/taking the sins of Man on himself thing, you are forgiven for the sins you do inevitably end up committing despite your best intentions and go straight to heaven. Even if you had sex before marriage, or smashed someone's head in with a pick axe, or coveted your neighbours ox.

    So whether Christianity is all a load of bollox, or its the ultimate Truth, no, you won't go to hell if you happen to ride some young one before you are married.

    So you're grand. Stop fretting.

    I'll admit I suffer from mild anxiety. My mind is either in the past or in the future and I can't stop worrying. Couple of days ago I saw some book advertised with the question " Where will you spend eternity?" Which scared me a bit. The false interpretation of hell that some people give doesn't help either.

    I know what you are saying about sins etc. I have read about people who have regretted saving themselves until marraige only to have it end a disaster. I don't want to bring up the test drive analogy but it seems logical. But knowing that Im sinning until I meet someone I'm willing to marry scares me a little. What if I died tomorrow and never confessed my sins? Obviously I haven't full made up my mind (will I ever?) but I feel a bit broken inside.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭EoghanIRL


    manyoung wrote: »
    I get what you are saying about man-made rules etc. But is the Church not making these from their interpretation of the Bible? As in are they not making these rules based on the words of Jesus or is it about producing many Catholics as you say?

    The bible is a load of nonsense anyway so any conclusion drawn from it would also be nonsense.

    Cults make up new rules all the time in order to keep their following .
    With education these days there are less naïve and susceptible people around so they have to do something.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    EoghanIRL wrote: »
    The bible is a load of nonsense anyway so any conclusion drawn from it would also be nonsense.

    Cults make up new rules all the time in order to keep their following .
    With education these days there are less naïve and susceptible people around so they have to do something.

    Follow the leader!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    manyoung wrote: »
    What if I died tomorrow and never confessed my sins?

    The deal in relation to dying before you reach confession but after having committed a mortal sin is that as long as you intended to go, you're grand, as it's contrition that really counts. God is omnipotent and he can forgive sins directly, if you don't make it there in time. Or as the RCC put it themselves.
    Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is "sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again." When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. (CCC 1451-1452)

    So as long as you intended to pop down for a quick confession in between the time you sinned and the time you were run over or whatever and just didn't make it on time, you're all set, straight to heaven.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    Have you sought professional help for your anxiety? It's not healthy to be thinking the way you are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    Have you sought professional help for your anxiety? It's not healthy to be thinking the way you are.

    Yeah I'm doin CBT at college at the moment. Saying that I hope to go see someone during the summer for my OCD. It's much better than what it used to be though...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    If you can, I think you should park all thoughts of religion and sex to one side and concentrate on getting better. As you said in your first post, it's not as if you're planning on having sex any time soon. When you are in a better place you can give it more thought and perhaps take up the suggestion of asking in the Christianity forum http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=333


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    The rules are usually there for a purpose... In order to prevent harming ourselves or others.

    Ones like "no stealing" are pretty easy to understand. Stealing harms the victims of theft. Killing others, jealousy (covetting things/people), all harmful to ourselves and others.

    But sex outside marriage needs a bit more thought. What's the harm these days? I guess the main harm involves the risks. So, sexually transmitted disease, unwanted pregnancy, etc. Both of those can be (mostly) protected against, so you have some mitigation there. Other harm could be emotional. So, sleeping with someone else's girlfriend/wife. Or getting dumped and hurt.

    I suppose what I'm saying is, be aware of the consequences. And if you are taking enough precautions to protect yourself and others from harm, then you have done your best by this one.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭orthsquel


    manyoung wrote: »
    generally young people nowadays are more liberal and there is a stigma around sex after marraige. Secondly, I don't feel myself, I suddenly fear this huge fear that I am going to hell.
    manyoung wrote: »
    Yeah I'm doin CBT at college at the moment. Saying that I hope to go see someone during the summer for my OCD. It's much better than what it used to be though...

    I have to ask OP did you generally have an issue about intimacy and sex before the understanding re hell and sex before marriage? I'm just wondering if perhaps that while you have progressed with your anxiety and OCD with another issue, you are looking for something to reinforce your OCD and anxiety with something else?

    I don't mean that in a mean or nasty way, but perhaps than rather than feeling anxious about 1 thing, you are moving the anxiety onto another thing? But that the notion of fearing something remains the same? Perhaps you should be having a chat with your CBT counsellor about this intense fear re hell?

    as for hell in general though, I'm not Catholic, not anything really (background is Church of Ireland though) and the only concept of hell I know are self made in negative situations, and the only consequence I know from doing something that is morally wrong, or socially unacceptable is guilt, shame and blame. However, I have never felt that where I have done something wrong, disappointed or hurt someone that I ought to be going to hell, even if some times I have felt that I am deserving of a negative outcome (i.e. disappoint expressed to me of my behaviour, losing a friend, feelings of guilt and regret) but it has allowed for me to resolve to change my own actions and behaviour to be a better person than the person I was before. However, my own personal view of RCC teachings and sins and hell, personally I feel are not necessarily on par with societal norms and within social acceptance nor are necessarily immoral as the RCC would have a person believe. For me personally, sex before marriage is a social norm and not morally wrong but of which varies between different religious perspectives as to whether it is morally right or wrong and acceptable; however, I feel it is up to each individual to assess if they are ready for sex, if it is right for them, or indeed, in line with their current religious belief (of which may alter through maturity) and what they are comfortable with against the feeling of peer pressure or the anxiety over being a virgin when friends are not (and social pressure to be accepted) or the worry of consequences.

    I think in the end, it is more likely that if the fear of hell relates back to your OCD and anxiety perhaps to sex in general, it is possible you might put yourself in a position where when with someone who wants to be with you, who wants to have sex with you, there is a risk the anxiety over hell etc will prevent you from having sex anyway, or put a barrier between you and that person by focusing on another issue (e.g. worry over getting them pregnant) and intensely worrying about that instead that you indirectly and involuntarily comply with the RCC teaching in the end.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    I was brought up Catholic, started questioning it at 12 and was finally allowed make my own religious choices at 18. If I have any faith system now it's humanist.

    Having said that I will never forget the guilt and doubts when I first had sex. It was like a subconscious voice pointing out that what I'd done was wrong. I listened to it for a few days and felt so bad about it. Then I woke up one day and said "F*ck it". I'm an adult, we were consenting adults, it was fun, I hope it will be fun again. And I've never looked back :)

    There's a time to stop fearing, stop believing doctrine and go out and experience life for yourself. If that involves sex, rock and roll and anything else, well it's all about the journey. No regrets, just learn from every experience. You won't look back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,737 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    manyoung wrote: »
    I get what you are saying about man-made rules etc. But is the Church not making these from their interpretation of the Bible? As in are they not making these rules based on the words of Jesus or is it about producing many Catholics as you say?

    The various books of the New Testament were written somewhere between 30 and 100 years after the events the purport to record. The NT itself was put together in the 3rd century, so 200 years after they were written. They have been translated and re-translated so many times in the interim that unless you can get hold of the originals, and can read ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, no-one really knows what the bible says, or even if Jesus said any of it or it's just what was reported, or even if any of it ever actually happened.

    The rules are there for control, and you'll notice that some of them are impossible to keep - Impure thoughts, for example. You can't possibly stop yourself from thinking 'Oh, she's hot!', so you've sinned, so you have to go ask for forgiveness, which means telling the priest your sins, which means that the priest knows every bad thing everyone in the area has done, which gives him power. They decide what sin is, then they can sell you the cure for it. Like Listerine did; before Listerine people just had 'bad breath' and someone would tell them to have a peppermint and it'd be grand, then Listerine basically invented the condition halitosis, a condition that gave you bad breath, so people no longer just had bad breath, there was something wrong with them. And the cure for this just happened to be - Listerine. See what I mean? If they can convince you that you've sinned and that only they can cure your sin then they have you. It all hangs on you accepting that you have committed a 'sin'.

    In any case, one thing to remember is, that one good piece of advice is attributed to this Jesus bloke - Love one another. That was his one commandment and I think if you stand by that - be good to people, treat them as you'd like to be treated, then whatever happens after you die you can hold your head up and say that you have lived the best life you could and that any god that would punish you for that isn't one you'd want to worship.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    I watched a bit of that BBC documentary mentioned earlier in the thread -it's on YouTube - and in reality Jesus didn't have a lot to say about sex. It's within the first five minutes or so. The rest is all man made and brought in from other religions and from writers such as Aristotle.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    kylith wrote: »
    They have been translated and re-translated so many times in the interim that unless you can get hold of the originals, and can read ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, no-one really knows what the bible says, or even if Jesus said any of it or it's just what was reported, or even if any of it ever actually happened.

    Just to say, it's Greek for the New Testament and quite a lot of people can read it, myself included.

    But to get back to the OP's basic issue, you sound seriously stressed by all this. Best advice I can give you is to make sure you make your own decisions in life. If you decide not to have sex before marriage then there's nothing wrong with that as long as it's your decision and you understand why you're making it. And if you decide that you will have sex, again make sure it's your decision. Things like this are so much easier to live with it when you make and own the decision yourself rather than simply falling into a way of life. And, indeed, you can apply this to your future relationship with your religion, whatever that may be. Ultimately, you may benefit from talking to someone about your anxieties.

    And yes, Stravo is correct - Jesus had nothing to say about sex. The issue of sexual morality is very much an OT thing and then a later Christian fascination, particularly from the likes of Augustine. And the sexual mores of the OT were very much in keeping with the time. Most people married very young so not having sex until then wasn't that big a deal. And more importantly, as virginity in women was effectively a prerequisite for marriage, pre-marital sex was hugely dangerous as it had the potential to render the woman unmarriable and if she was unmarriable she may have had no means of supporting herself as the patriarchal structure made her dependent on a husband for survival. Thankfully, we've left such ideas behind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    Mousewar wrote: »
    Just to say, it's Greek for the New Testament and quite a lot of people can read it, myself included.

    But to get back to the OP's basic issue, you sound seriously stressed by all this. Best advice I can give you is to make sure you make your own decisions in life. If you decide not to have sex before marriage then there's nothing wrong with that as long as it's your decision and you understand why you're making it. And if you decide that you will have sex, again make sure it's your decision. Things like this are so much easier to live with it when you make and own the decision yourself rather than simply falling into a way of life. And, indeed, you can apply this to your future relationship with your religion, whatever that may be. Ultimately, you may benefit from talking to someone about your anxieties.

    And yes, Stravo is correct - Jesus had nothing to say about sex. The issue of sexual morality is very much an OT thing and then a later Christian fascination, particularly from the likes of Augustine. And the sexual mores of the OT were very much in keeping with the time. Most people married very young so not having sex until then wasn't that big a deal. And more importantly, as virginity in women was effectively a prerequisite for marriage, pre-marital sex was hugely dangerous as it had the potential to render the woman unmarriable and if she was unmarriable she may have had no means of supporting herself as the patriarchal structure made her dependent on a husband for survival. Thankfully, we've left such ideas behind.

    Fair enough but since reading about the concept of mortal thoughts I just feel like there is a black cloud on my head, like things will never be the same again. I hate saying this but I feel like I have no choice now. I hope to speak to my therapist next week. What makes me sad is that I was making progress with the anxiety, full of hope, and now after reading what I read is shattered.....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    I watched a bit of that BBC documentary mentioned earlier in the thread -it's on YouTube - and in reality Jesus didn't have a lot to say about sex. It's within the first five minutes or so. The rest is all man made and brought in from other religions and from writers such as Aristotle.

    Will give it a watch. Thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    kylith wrote: »
    The various books of the New Testament were written somewhere between 30 and 100 years after the events the purport to record. The NT itself was put together in the 3rd century, so 200 years after they were written. They have been translated and re-translated so many times in the interim that unless you can get hold of the originals, and can read ancient Aramaic and Hebrew, no-one really knows what the bible says, or even if Jesus said any of it or it's just what was reported, or even if any of it ever actually happened.

    The rules are there for control, and you'll notice that some of them are impossible to keep - Impure thoughts, for example. You can't possibly stop yourself from thinking 'Oh, she's hot!', so you've sinned, so you have to go ask for forgiveness, which means telling the priest your sins, which means that the priest knows every bad thing everyone in the area has done, which gives him power. They decide what sin is, then they can sell you the cure for it. Like Listerine did; before Listerine people just had 'bad breath' and someone would tell them to have a peppermint and it'd be grand, then Listerine basically invented the condition halitosis, a condition that gave you bad breath, so people no longer just had bad breath, there was something wrong with them. And the cure for this just happened to be - Listerine. See what I mean? If they can convince you that you've sinned and that only they can cure your sin then they have you. It all hangs on you accepting that you have committed a 'sin'.

    In any case, one thing to remember is, that one good piece of advice is attributed to this Jesus bloke - Love one another. That was his one commandment and I think if you stand by that - be good to people, treat them as you'd like to be treated, then whatever happens after you die you can hold your head up and say that you have lived the best life you could and that any god that would punish you for that isn't one you'd want to worship.

    I don't know why I continue to look up stuff on this when I know it's going to make me more anxious, but apparently the only unforgivable sin is not being willing to confess your sins. Like I may confess my sins but when my judgement day comes are the good things I do going to matter?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    manyoung wrote: »
    Okay so I am a 20 year old Roman Catholic. I admit that I don't have the strongest faith nor do people in my family. We go to Mass every week, but that's kind of the extent of it if you know what I mean.

    Recently I stumbled upon what is known as a mortal sin when looking up sex before marraige. I'm a virgin and can barely hold a conversation with a girl at the moment but my point is that knowingly having sex before marraige will send you to hell unless you repent.

    I didn't know any of this until now and I just don't know what to think. I feel like I am on the fence between two worlds. The first is one where we live so we don't go to hell, which I fear greatly. The second is the secular, modern world where (due to low self esteem) look for validation from people.

    Sorry for making this long but I hope you see my dilemma. It's not like I plan on having sex anytime soon, but let's face it; generally young people nowadays are more liberal and there is a stigma around sex after marraige. Secondly, I don't feel myself, I suddenly fear this huge fear that I am going to hell.

    Ignore.

    Throughout history, various power structures have tried to control the family and reproduction.

    It's your body, you can do what the bleep you like with it.

    Plus there's no such thing as hell.

    This is all fiction....take it as seirously as the Dublin Bus time tables.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Don't be afraid, the religion you subscribe to is all a load of nonsense. You're not going to hell, because hell doesn't exist. It was created specifically so young people like yourself would be too scared to satisfy perfectly natural urges, like sex.

    Do yourself a favour, close the bible, and put it someone far far away.


    This is not helpful.

    OP. Jesus is all about following what your conscience believes to be right, what you believe to be right, and I strongly believe or advocate, that no God or messiah, would ever send a person to 'hell' due to their natural human urges to have consensual sex. Be the person you want to be, do what you feel what is right, think, (which you have done) and come to a decision that is comfortable with your lifestyle. Either way, no one is going to strike you off the good book for expressing your humanity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,673 ✭✭✭Stavro Mueller


    manyoung wrote: »
    I don't know why I continue to look up stuff on this when I know it's going to make me more anxious

    I guess you've got a compulsion to do things like that. It's like if someone's a hypochondriac and can't help but google their symptoms. Next thing their ingrown thumbnail has turned from something simple into an ailment that will lead to them having their foot cut off, chemotherapy and a life expectancy of 6 months. Seriously - you need to learn to stop reading stuff that you know will upset you. If you burned your finger would you keep sticking it back into the fire? You looked up about sex before marriage because you knew beforehand what the answer would be.

    You've got to understand that Catholicism, just like every other religion out there, is based on an interpretation of Christianity and what's in the bible. You really need to be careful what you read because there are quite a lot of loo-las out there who are pushing their own agendas. You're going to find extremists in every religion. Ones who can point to passages in religious texts and use them as a means to justify their actions. I'm sure like most people you've been appalled by the atrocities committed by ISIS out in the Middle East. Those guys think it's OK to rape, behead, burn, amputate and execute anyone who crosses their path because they feel it's in the Koran and the Prophet Mohammed gave them permission.

    Another poster touched on the history of the bible, when the various books were written and when it was put together. Not to mention all the translations that are out there. The end result is that what has come down to us is quite a hodgepodge. Don't forget for one minute that the people who wrote the various books in the bible did so with specific slants on it. Think of it like an ancient Fox News if you like - a news service that sort of reports what's happening but with a very biased slant.

    As I've said already, Jesus never came out and said you'll burn in hell if you have sex before marriage. The rule came about because of socio-economic conditions and norms. If you watched that BBC Sex and the Church documentary you'll have seen how they scrambled to turn Jesus's mother Mary into an eternal virgin. You'll also have seen how they selectively chose certain parts of the bible and promoted those, while quietly shelving other ones.

    I definitely think you need to talk to your therapist soon about all of this. And please, stop googling sex before marriage. It'll drive you crazy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,737 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    manyoung wrote: »
    I don't know why I continue to look up stuff on this when I know it's going to make me more anxious, but apparently the only unforgivable sin is not being willing to confess your sins. Like I may confess my sins but when my judgement day comes are the good things I do going to matter?
    Have you considered speaking to your parish priest about this? Thy be able to put your mind at ease.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    Sorry I haven't gotten back to you guys, I been busy the last few days. I feel a little better about the whole thing but still cant stop thinking about the possibility of the afterlife. The word "eternal" scares me a little.

    I cant say, though, that I feel much pleasure as I did a couple of weeks ago. I keep reflecting and worrying about things which I cant control and I'm just letting the present slip away.

    I think I have identified the my biggest issue with the whole sex before marriage thing though: As much as I hate to say it I don't particularly like myself to some extent. I work hard, people say I'm smart, but I feel lonely. Granted, I don't go out much and could work on myself better but haven't been in a proper, stable relationship with a woman (to be even more shallow, a pretty woman). You are probably reading this and thinking that I'm placing my self-worth on a romance, and you would be right. I mean, the ego loves nothing more than when your friends complement you on the pretty girl you are dating, right? However, my lack of social skills coupled with my mental processes only reduces my self esteem.

    Based on this, I guess I put romance (and sex) on a pedestal, simply because I am naïve. I day dream about possible romances (I know, just keep reading) and essentially live in my mind. This is why I place so much value on sex and romance. The whole sin thing just shatters my perception and I don't know where to look....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭manyoung


    kylith wrote: »
    Have you considered speaking to your parish priest about this? Thy be able to put your mind at ease.

    Maybe not my parish priest, maybe someone at college though.


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