Importance of maintaining club & left arm 90 degree angle at top?

NFH

So from my understanding of a golf "fundamental", the angle between the left arm and the club at the top of the backswing should be 90 degrees. This angle should begin to set on the backswing when the club is parallel to ground and be set when the left arm is parallel to the ground (i.e. club perpendicular to ground), and this angle should be maintained at top.

I have watched many slow motion videos of pros and this is a constant, solid wrists at top of swing and no collapse of 90 degree angle. I have recently watched a slow motion video of my swing and this is not the case. When my left arm reaches its end point in backswing, the club keeps going because my wrists kind of collapse, and that 90 degree angle breaks with the club going past parallel. I think this is a result of a late wrist cock and also trying to be too relaxed.

My question is, do many people here focus on trying to keep that angle at the top and not break the wrists. Is it a big problem? For me right now it is, because not playing well, but since I've identified the problem I hope to fix it soon.

GreeBo

NFH wrote: »

So from my understanding of a golf "fundamental", the angle between the left arm and the club at the top of the backswing should be 90 degrees. This angle should begin to set on the backswing when the club is parallel to ground and be set when the left arm is parallel to the ground (i.e. club perpendicular to ground), and this angle should be maintained at top.

I have watched many slow motion videos of pros and this is a constant, solid wrists at top of swing and no collapse of 90 degree angle. I have recently watched a slow motion video of my swing and this is not the case. When my left arm reaches its end point in backswing, the club keeps going because my wrists kind of collapse, and that 90 degree angle breaks with the club going past parallel. I think this is a result of a late wrist cock and also trying to be too relaxed.

My question is, do many people here focus on trying to keep that angle at the top and not break the wrists. Is it a big problem? For me right now it is, because not playing well, but since I've identified the problem I hope to fix it soon.

Its probably not your wrists, most likely your left arm/elbow is breaking down.
Do you have a video up on the swing thread?

This breaking down isnt really that much of a problem, unless its leading to over swinging and hence swaying, reverse pivot.

ShivasIrons

NFH wrote: »

So from my understanding of a golf "fundamental", the angle between the left arm and the club at the top of the backswing should be 90 degrees. This angle should begin to set on the backswing when the club is parallel to ground and be set when the left arm is parallel to the ground (i.e. club perpendicular to ground), and this angle should be maintained at top.

I have watched many slow motion videos of pros and this is a constant, solid wrists at top of swing and no collapse of 90 degree angle. I have recently watched a slow motion video of my swing and this is not the case. When my left arm reaches its end point in backswing, the club keeps going because my wrists kind of collapse, and that 90 degree angle breaks with the club going past parallel. I think this is a result of a late wrist cock and also trying to be too relaxed.

My question is, do many people here focus on trying to keep that angle at the top and not break the wrists. Is it a big problem? For me right now it is, because not playing well, but since I've identified the problem I hope to fix it soon.

If it is a fundamental how come John Daly and Phil Mickelson have won majors?

NFH

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If it is a fundamental how come John Daly and Phil Mickelson have won majors?

In most sports, there is always a most common way of doing things, the accepted technique or form for executing an act, such as the baseball swing or javelin throw or in this case the golf swing. These most commonly accepted methods over time become accepted as fundamentals or guidelines for the correct way to preform a sporting act. However, as you have pointed out in your examples, there are always exceptions to the rules. Hope this helps!

SnowDrifts

I think if I was thinking about what degrees to have my arm and club at then I wouldn't hit the ball out of my way. Too much thinking is bad. Grip it and rip it.

ShivasIrons

NFH wrote: »

In most sports, there is always a most common way of doing things, the accepted technique or form for executing an act, such as the baseball swing or javelin throw or in this case the golf swing. These most commonly accepted methods over time become accepted as fundamentals or guidelines for the correct way to preform a sporting act. However, as you have pointed out in your examples, there are always exceptions to the rules. Hope this helps!

If an exception can perform at the highest level then what they are the exception to can't be a fundamental. The fundamentals for golf are good impact conditions, what get's you there (the swing) is a style. What you're talking about is a style, if the style doesn't get the right impact conditions change it, if the impact conditions are right the style is right.

NFH

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If an exception can perform at the highest level then what they are the exception to can't be a fundamental. The fundamentals for golf are good impact conditions, what get's you there (the swing) is a style. What you're talking about is a style, if the style doesn't get the right impact conditions change it, if the impact conditions are right the style is right.

Well I believe that what you call "style" has a major impact on the success of one obtaining the best "impact conditions" as you call it, and I want to develop a good style based on golfs fundamentals. . When I use the word "fundamentals", everyone knows what I mean. The right angle with the left arm and club at the top of the swing is what I would call a golf fundamental and I have noticed that "most" of the top golfers today - Woods, McIlroy, Rose, Scott, Kaymar etc employ this. The idea of this post was to get feedback on whether or not many golfers on this forum focus on keeping a right angle with the club and left arm at the top of the swing.

alxmorgan

NFH wrote: »

So from my understanding of a golf "fundamental", the angle between the left arm and the club at the top of the backswing should be 90 degrees. This angle should begin to set on the backswing when the club is parallel to ground and be set when the left arm is parallel to the ground (i.e. club perpendicular to ground), and this angle should be maintained at top.

I have watched many slow motion videos of pros and this is a constant, solid wrists at top of swing and no collapse of 90 degree angle. I have recently watched a slow motion video of my swing and this is not the case. When my left arm reaches its end point in backswing, the club keeps going because my wrists kind of collapse, and that 90 degree angle breaks with the club going past parallel. I think this is a result of a late wrist cock and also trying to be too relaxed.

My question is, do many people here focus on trying to keep that angle at the top and not break the wrists. Is it a big problem? For me right now it is, because not playing well, but since I've identified the problem I hope to fix it soon.

Have to agree with Shivas here....how do you know this is the problem ? You are not playing well...what does that mean ? The ball does not care where your your left arm is and what it is doing. All it cares about are impact conditions. You may be right in that there is commonality between some/most top pros but if your physical make-up i.e. flexibility, strength, speed etc are not the same then why try to copy them.

spacecoyote

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but it just sounds as simple as you are over swinging?

Just take a little off your back swing and it should be easier to control your position at the top

I somehow doubt the angle of their wrist crosses the mind of any pro

Russman

Op, that angle at the top of the swing is as a result of the cocking of the wrists, its not a goal in itself, more a by product of the way most players swing. Some guys have very flexible wrists, other not so much, so you'll see one guy with a 90 degree angle, another with less, and another with more. If you think about hitting anything (a ball, a stone, a sliotar etc) with some form of "stick" or bat, it'd be impossible to do it without creating some sort of leverage, that's all the wrist hinge is, don't get hung up on it.

Look at the difference between Kaymar and Stricker at the top of the swing, or look at the way Sergio has very little angle at the top, but increases it on the way down. Its certainly not a fundamental or a necessity in order to play good golf, although I do think I know what you mean.

IMO, get your grip, stance and setup correct, forget about degrees and angles and swing the club on plane, the angles will take care of themselves.

PARlance

If you're over swinging OP, try to "feel" like you're taking a 3/4 swing.
It'd be well worth taking a video of your 3/4 swing after you've hit 30 or 40 balls.... (To tie it in) it'll probably be a 90% swing and you'll have lost that 10% of over swing.
You may not get a perfect 90* angle but I doubt any pro looks to achieve that.

If you're "feeling" like you swinging 3/4 then it'll be hard to over extend. I've made this change and ball striking, as well as distance, has improved.

John Divney

This is a fundamental, it is way smaller than 90 deegrees in better players such as Hogan due to wrist flexibility. Some have little then a lot in the transition

The point is its fundamental in the downswing to maximise speed when it is released into the ball.

This is literally the holy grail of golf instruction and hardly anybody explains how it's done the same, because they all perceive it differently.

To stop overswing which is not going to help any amateur, the shoulders must control the backswing and the wrist react to that, have them fully cocked by the end of the shoulder turn.

On the downswing, this is where players make millions, getting that lagged club to release into the ball without artificially holding the angle.

Firstly you need to get the hips to start, then the right elbow has to be sucked into the torso, this is how most top players keep the angle and even make it smaller. Hogan said he gave his arms a free ride until they were back to parralel.

By that stage the angle is maintained and the torso needs to rotate into the ball from there, if the hands get active here the club will release early.

Basically you have to do a sequence of movements that all complement each other, finding out what ones work is the real work, because most instruction cannot teach you the what your body just doesn't react to.

Monte scheinblum has great videos dedicated to this, have a look.

bustercherry

John Divney wrote: »

This is a fundamental, it is way smaller than 90 deegrees in better players such as Hogan due to wrist flexibility. Some have little then a lot in the transition

The point is its fundamental in the downswing to maximise speed when it is released into the ball.

This is literally the holy grail of golf instruction and hardly anybody explains how it's done the same, because they all perceive it differently.

To stop overswing which is not going to help any amateur, the shoulders must control the backswing and the wrist react to that, have them fully cocked by the end of the shoulder turn.

On the downswing, this is where players make millions, getting that lagged club to release into the ball without artificially holding the angle.

Firstly you need to get the hips to start, then the right elbow has to be sucked into the torso, this is how most top players keep the angle and even make it smaller. Hogan said he gave his arms a free ride until they were back to parralel.

By that stage the angle is maintained and the torso needs to rotate into the ball from there, if the hands get active here the club will release early.

Basically you have to do a sequence of movements that all complement each other, finding out what ones work is the real work, because most instruction cannot teach you the what your body just doesn't react to.

Monte scheinblum has great videos dedicated to this, have a look.

Or you could just take you stance, grip and swing through the ball.

NFH

Sorry, I should have said, my current problems are inconsistency and hitting pushes or slices. I've taken videos of my swing and using slow motion I can see the problem clear as day, my swing pauses ta top but my wrists keep turning and the club wraps around going past parallel. Most of the advice used for over-swinging will more than likely fix this but also I think making sure my wrists stay more solid at the top will also help. Thanks for advice John Divney, very informative. And to be fair lads, that "grip it and rip it" s***e will only get ya so far, nothing wrong with analysing your swing in detail.

alxmorgan

NFH wrote: »

Sorry, I should have said, my current problems are inconsistency and hitting pushes or slices. I've taken videos of my swing and using slow motion I can see the problem clear as day, my swing pauses ta top but my wrists keep turning and the club wraps around going past parallel. Most of the advice used for over-swinging will more than likely fix this but also I think making sure my wrists stay more solid at the top will also help. Thanks for advice John Divney, very informative. And to be fair lads, that "grip it and rip it" s***e will only get ya so far, nothing wrong with analysing your swing in detail.

Absolutely nothing wrong with analysing your swing. But you can see the problem clear as day ? Practically every pro and teaching pro ( who can afford it) uses launch monitors these days as video is a 2d representation of a 3d motion. Basically all these people have accepted that impact is what counts and you need a launch monitor to be sure of impact conditions.

Do you know what causes a push and a slice ? It certainly is not the position of the left arm. It is club head and club path. Can the left arm influence these ? Of course. Players with 90 angles also hit pushes. Where does ball start when you hit a slice ? (left, straight or right)

John Divney

bustercherry wrote: »

Or you could just take you stance, grip and swing through the ball.

Yeah, it's as easy as that.

The guy wants to know more, because less is getting him nowhere, like most of us who seek knowledge about the swing.

NFH

alxmorgan wrote: »

Absolutely nothing wrong with analysing your swing. But you can see the problem clear as day ? Practically every pro and teaching pro ( who can afford it) uses launch monitors these days as video is a 2d representation of a 3d motion. Basically all these people have accepted that impact is what counts and you need a launch monitor to be sure of impact conditions.

Do you know what causes a push and a slice ? It certainly is not the position of the left arm. It is club head and club path. Can the left arm influence these ? Of course. Players with 90 angles also hit pushes. Where does ball start when you hit a slice ? (left, straight or right)

Fair point, I suppose what I am trying to do is ensure I am getting the basics right first and if I still have problems that I feel are effecting my game, then I will go get analysed with a golf pro using Trackman. But from front and side views of my swing most parts look good apart from this "wrist break overswing", which when compared to most pro swing videos is definitely something they do not do.

SnowDrifts

NFH wrote: »

And to be fair lads, that "grip it and rip it" s***e will only get ya so far, nothing wrong with analysing your swing in detail.

Funny that... I would consider this quest for a perfect 90 degree angle to be a load of "s***e". To each their own.... hope it works out for you and we see you on our TV screens in the not so distant future.

John Divney

Ah, is the club sort of springing over parralel then back a bit on its own rather than because the arms move is too long?

This can be the right hand grip issue, try grip the right hand so there is no gap between thumb and index finger, most likely it's slipping at the top, had this when I started back a few years ago, takes work but went soon enough.

Try and shorten the thumbs on both hands, makes it a tighter grip without adding tension

NFH

John Divney wrote: »

Ah, is the club sort of springing over parralel then back a bit on its own rather than because the arms move is too long?

This can be the right hand grip issue, try grip the right hand so there is no gap between thumb and index finger, most likely it's slipping at the top, had this when I started back a few years ago, takes work but went soon enough.

Try and shorten the thumbs on both hands, makes it a tighter grip without adding tension

That's exactly it. I do usually have a slight gap between thumb and index finger on right hand grip. Cheers, will give that and shortening thumbs on grip a go.

John Divney

NFH wrote: »

That's exactly it. I do usually have a slight gap between thumb and index finger on right hand grip. Cheers, will give that and shortening thumbs on grip a go.

Yep, watch out for it loosening up mid backswing too.

One good way of getting it ingrained is grip with the left, then the right hand fingers making a tight but not tense grip, then finally put the right thumb down and pull it back shortening it.

Then make a backswing and check in the mirror. Keep doing it over and over and you should be good.

bustercherry

SnowDrifts wrote: »

Funny that... I would consider this quest for a perfect 90 degree angle to be a load of "s***e". To each their own.... hope it works out for you and we see you on our TV screens in the not so distant future.

Yep I'd agree with that. I'd suggest grip it and rip it has gotten me farther than you will get with pursuing this analysis.

What most amateurs fail to forget is that they are not as flexible or balanced as the pros they see on TV. Trying to recreate the pro's athletic positions at the top their back swing is pointless because first of all you are not an athlete and second you don't have the talent. If you had both of these we would be all trying to create your swing.

bustercherry

John Divney wrote: »

Yeah, it's as easy as that.

The guy wants to know more, because less is getting him nowhere, like most of us who seek knowledge about the swing.

It is actually as easy as that. If I give you a tennis racket and ask you to hit a shot; do you think about your wrist position on your backswing? It's paralysis by analysis.

John Divney

I think most of club players realised that fairly quickly, and aren't looking to Sergio the golf club, but simply get the most bang for the ability.

The problem with the golf swing is it's counter intuitive, and gripping and ripping might work for one, but utterly be a disaster for 9 out of ten.

It takes thought, structure and learning about your physique to get a swing that suits AND is getting the most out of your natural limitations

John Divney

bustercherry wrote: »

It is actually as easy as that. If I give you a tennis racket and ask you to hit a shot; do you think about your wrist position on your backswing? It's paralysis by analysis.

Yes you do, if the ball is hitting the net all the time, the FIRST thing the coach does is say adjust the wrist

He doesn't say keep doing the same thing until you get better by some miracle, because that would be insane

bustercherry

John Divney wrote: »

Yes you do, if the ball is hitting the net all the time, the FIRST thing the coach does is say adjust the wrist

Adjust the wrists..... how?

What a load of guff. If your hitting the net the first thing they will do is say hit it over the net and let the person get a feel for it themselves. The outcome of the shot is what is important not the position of the wrist. You would never coach a child like that; I can never understand why you would an adult either.

bustercherry

John Divney wrote: »

Yes you do, if the ball is hitting the net all the time, the FIRST thing the coach does is say adjust the wrist

He doesn't say keep doing the same thing until you get better by some miracle, because that would be insane

If you cant figure out how to hit it over the net yourself; coaching is pointless.

John Divney

Jesus, I'm saying your method only works when it works, so a beginner tennis player hits it over the net from a bouncing ball. Great, then a rally and every **** hits the net.

Then the coach comes over and notices the player is flicking the wrists causing the face to manipulate down.

He adjusts her by experience and knowledge, not by saying 'just hit it over the net ya dummy, it's easy'

Tennis is a natural game of reacting, golf is far more complex swing, you think all top tennis players are good at golf?

TrapperChamonix

NFH wrote: »

That's exactly it. I do usually have a slight gap between thumb and index finger on right hand grip. Cheers, will give that and shortening thumbs on grip a go.

To check this do the following
Pause at the top of the backswing with club parallel to the ground.
Remove your left hand.
Release the pressure of your middle 2 fingers on your right hand,
You should be able to hold the club with your right little finger and resting on the thumb / index finger. If it drops then you have insufficient between the 2 and hence the cause of the collapse.

Pretty sure its a picture in Hogans 5 Lessons The Modern FUNDEMENTALS of Golf

NFH

Cheers, tried most of those tips at range and was definitely striking it well. I was focusing on not overswinging so trying to keep the hips very quite, something I've noticed I haven't been doing lately and I think this has been a major reason for overswinging and in turn the wrist breakdown. When you keep the hips rock solid and try to do backswing you really see the difference between pros and amateurs. Rory's hips barely move and shoulder can go well past 90, insane!

GreeBo

You can hit great shots with a bent arm and terrible ones with a straight arm.

Get a lesson to determine what's wrong with your swing.
Anything else is pointless, who's to say your arm is the cause of anything other than this thread ?

agusta

NFH wrote: »

Cheers, tried most of those tips at range and was definitely striking it well. I was focusing on not overswinging so trying to keep the hips very quite, something I've noticed I haven't been doing lately and I think this has been a major reason for overswinging and in turn the wrist breakdown. When you keep the hips rock solid and try to do backswing you really see the difference between pros and amateurs. Rory's hips barely move and shoulder can go well past 90, insane!

If your wrists are breaking down i think the golf training aid "swingyde" might be very usefull to you.Zach johnson uses it regularly in practice.There is a good few videos on youtube about it.

rrpc

GreeBo wrote: »

You can hit great shots with a bent arm and terrible ones with a straight arm.

Get a lesson to determine what's wrong with your swing.
Anything else is pointless, who's to say your arm is the cause of anything other than this thread ?

Funny you should say that GreeBo. Was on the range yesterday evening and doing a bit of experimentation with the driver and I discovered that if I allowed my left arm to bend slightly at the top of the backswing I was getting far more consistent drives; height, distance and accuracy were all better than when I kept my arm straight.

GreeBo

rrpc wrote: »

Funny you should say that GreeBo. Was on the range yesterday evening and doing a bit of experimentation with the driver and I discovered that if I allowed my left arm to bend slightly at the top of the backswing I was getting far more consistent drives; height, distance and accuracy were all better than when I kept my arm straight.

Its probably because your body is not flexible enough to keep it straight AND make a full swing so you were doing all sorts to achieve it. This then requires you to undo the "all sorts" in the correct order to get back to impact correctly.

Just letting your body naturally do what it wants "back there" will result in a more consistency imo.

spacecoyote

GreeBo wrote: »

Its probably because your body is not flexible enough to keep it straight AND make a full swing so you were doing all sorts to achieve it. This then requires you to undo the "all sorts" in the correct order to get back to impact correctly.

Just letting your body naturally do what it wants "back there" will result in a more consistency imo.

Yup I dont have close to enough flexibility to make it to the top & maintain a straight left arm. I keep it straight for as long as I can on the takeaway but then I just let my arms do what they have to do to complete my back swing.

Have a mate with an awesome shoulder turn that I'm very jealous of, but I work with what I've got

agusta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXKs_UR-wGo
This guy gets a nice flex in his left arm and he hits it out there 320

PARlance

agusta wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXKs_UR-wGo
This guy gets a nice flex in his left arm and he hits it out there 320

Jordan Speith is another who gets plenty of flex in his left arm.

agusta

PARlance wrote: »

Jordan Speith is another who gets plenty of flex in his left arm.

Thanks,Just looked at his swing.he does curve his left arm quite a bit at the top

PARlance

agusta wrote: »

Thanks,Just looked at his swing.he does curve his left arm quite a bit at the top

He also has quite the "chicken wing" action in his follow through. Couldn't find any vids to really highlight that but it's definitely there.

Here's a vid with the left arm collapsing for others: http://youtu.be/2HUgt5sVptI

I was fairly surprised to see "golfs next big thing" with such an unconventional swing, refreshing really. He doesn't strike me as having an flexibility issues but it's still part of his swing.

Russman

Speith will be fine until some coach gets a hold of him......;)

John Divney

The older hickory players had bends in the arm Bobby Jones being one . It's the angle the club makes with the inside of the wrist when it uncocks that gives clubhead the most speed at impact.

All thing being equal the tighter it is the more rotational speed gets transferred when it naturally unwinds into the ball.

It's not about an actual angle, it's just not throwing speed and decelerating before impact, commonly know as flipping.

Also I even though I have a straight arm at the top of the backswing, I think a bent arm going straight in the downswing be a benefit in keeping the leverage in the mid downswing.