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Apple and Microsoft join forces to impede progress

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  • 07-11-2013 2:51pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    http://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/apple-microsoft-impede-google-progress-fea
    Apple and Microsoft have joined forces and invested billions of dollars to create a shell company, the sole purpose of this venture is to sue Google and derail its Android operating system.

    Sneaky? Yes. Not to mention selfish, and anti-competitive. But worst of all, it's anti-progress.
    .......

    The real victim here is not Google or HTC or Samsung -- it’s all of us.

    I realise I'm running into the lions den to throw rocks right now - but I still want to highlight this and hear your thoughts.

    Yes I know they are entitled to protect their brand but patent trolling is not cool when we the users suffer. The only winners here are the lawyers. Apple are an incredible company but they infuriate me in so many ways...


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,434 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    Very simple..if Google wanted the patents it should have bought them...and if the shoe was on the other foot Google wouldn't hesitate to do the same..


    First, the backstory. In 2011, Apple and Microsoft (and a few others) created a shell company called Rockstar Bidco, which spent $4.5 billion to buy 6,000 patents from Nortel, which was going out of business.

    Now, Rockstar is using those patents to sue Google and other companies that make smartphones that run Google’s Android operating system. This is a massive assault on the entire Android platform.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,206 ✭✭✭Zcott


    This is stupid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    Though I can see both sides, I have to agree with Blazer. Other people paid a lot of money for those patents, and if Google wanted to use the IP covered by those then they should have chipped in.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Didn't Google also buy Billions of dollars worth of patents to do the same? Was it from Kodak?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭Arrow.


    Bit of a headache for Google alright, but Android is here to stay regardless. It's too big now surely?

    Google aren't the little start up Apple and Microsoft so often bully into submission.

    whiterebel wrote: »
    Didn't Google also buy Billions of dollars worth of patents to do the same? Was it from Kodak?

    Also from Motorola....I'm sure.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,885 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    whiterebel wrote: »
    Didn't Google also buy Billions of dollars worth of patents to do the same? Was it from Kodak?
    indeed

    and google is managing quite successfully to avoid paying billions of euro of tax in europe and elsewhere thanks to their very sleek financial planning so have the cash in the bank to pay for these damages should it come to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    Google bid for these patents several times for several million which is why the final figure went so high. They were outbid by Apple, Microsoft, RIM and others who joined together as stated above. I think it was an educated guess by Google that if they are sued the damages they have to pay will be less than the cost of the patents. For example if after 3 years of court cases Google has to pay one billion in damaged then it's saved itself 3.5 billion not to mention the bad publicity Apple, Microsoft and the others will get as patient trolls. Remember Microsoft and Apple didn't invent or come up with these patent ideas. They just bought them to licence and sue people. Google could have kept bidding higher than the 4.5 if they wanted. They spent 12 billion only a few months later on Motorola for far more patents so it's not like they didn't have the money. Google won against Oracle on the use of Java in Android remember so they aren't afraid to take people on in court. The problem is it's going to be another 2-3 years before we know if it was a good move.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,913 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Dudda wrote: »
    Google bid for these patents several times for several million which is why the final figure went so high. They were outbid by Apple, Microsoft, RIM and others who joined together as stated above. I think it was an educated guess by Google that if they are sued the damages they have to pay will be less than the cost of the patents. For example if after 3 years of court cases Google has to pay one billion in damaged then it's saved itself 3.5 billion not to mention the bad publicity Apple, Microsoft and the others will get as patient trolls. Remember Microsoft and Apple didn't invent or come up with these patent ideas. They just bought them to licence and sue people. Google could have kept bidding higher than the 4.5 if they wanted. They spent 12 billion only a few months later on Motorola for far more patents so it's not like they didn't have the money. Google won against Oracle on the use of Java in Android remember so they aren't afraid to take people on in court. The problem is it's going to be another 2-3 years before we know if it was a good move.

    A bit simplistic, isn't it? They would be using the patents themselves, and wouldn't wanted to get sued by someone else?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Dudda


    whiterebel wrote: »
    A bit simplistic, isn't it? They would be using the patents themselves, and wouldn't wanted to get sued by someone else?

    Yes and no. They would be using the patents themselves but no where near the 4.5 billion cost. They have to make some of that investment back by licence and court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 704 ✭✭✭LukeS_


    Blazer wrote: »
    Very simple..if Google wanted the patents it should have bought them...and if the shoe was on the other foot Google wouldn't hesitate to do the same..


    First, the backstory. In 2011, Apple and Microsoft (and a few others) created a shell company called Rockstar Bidco, which spent $4.5 billion to buy 6,000 patents from Nortel, which was going out of business.

    Now, Rockstar is using those patents to sue Google and other companies that make smartphones that run Google’s Android operating system. This is a massive assault on the entire Android platform.

    http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/28/4156614/google-opa-open-source-patent-pledge-wont-sue-unless-attacked

    Not quite sure about that... But of course you can only take it at face value.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,678 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Yeah poor innocent Google. They screwed up, missing out on a massive patent war chest and had to make do with Motorola, who were suing Apple at the time and continued to do so, starting fresh lawsuits under Google ownership only last year. People are free to believe what they want, but this idea that Google are acting purely in self-defense is total rubbish.

    Nobody wants to be fighting a patent war with the rest of the industry. But they have no choice but to acquire as many as they can if they want to avoid being sued. I suppose the hope is that eventually the major players will reach a MAD-esque equilibrium.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,455 ✭✭✭FGR


    Google are using their own tactics to try and hinder the competition - Windows Phone being denied a proper YouTube app or access to it's services being a primary example; especially being that Microsoft are willing to pay for the development of the apps.

    So no one's innocent here. It's all playground antics imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    Zascar wrote: »
    I realise I'm running into the lions den to throw rocks right now - but I still want to highlight this and hear your thoughts.

    It's hyperbole and BS. The creation of the company was for the group purchase of Nortel patents. It had nothing to do with patent trolling, nor actively attacking Google.

    Fun Fact, Google went into the Nortel patent auction and made stupid bids to look all cool for school. Then when they got stomped all over they made a statement about how patents are evil, etc.

    MS also wanted to team up with Google on the Nortel patents first, but Google turned them down. They also had the chance to join the group that is now suing them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,151 ✭✭✭rovoagho


    indeed

    and google is managing quite successfully to avoid paying billions of euro of tax in europe and elsewhere thanks to their very sleek financial planning so have the cash in the bank to pay for these damages should it come to it.

    You realise both Apple and Microsoft do this too, right? Bless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Patents make the world go around. Without patents we would not have a pharmaceutical industry and there would be no (health related)drugs. Period.

    This has to be the most ridicules and inaccurate post made.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    FGR wrote: »
    Google are using their own tactics to try and hinder the competition - Windows Phone being denied a proper YouTube app or access to it's services being a primary example; especially being that Microsoft are willing to pay for the development of the apps.

    So no one's innocent here. It's all playground antics imo.

    That is just wrong, Google want people using their services on all platforms. The app was originally removed because it allowed the download of videos and now Microsoft are refusing to use HTML5 which Google are insisting on. Don't let that get in the way of your bashing though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭jacksie66


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    The whole thing needs a rethink, patents now hinder the very thing they set out to protect, Innovation


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    smee again wrote: »
    The whole thing needs a rethink, patents now hinder the very thing they set out to protect, Innovation

    There would be no innovation without patents. Why spend money on R and D, if there is no benefit?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    I highly recommend everyone watches this excellent short documentary series http://everythingisaremix.info/watch-the-series/ which covers some of these points quite well


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    ted1 wrote: »
    There would be no innovation without patents. Why spend money on R and D, if there is no benefit?

    Exactly my point, the system at present is not protecting innovation, but instead being used to hinder it. The system is broken.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    emmm, now it is driving innovation.

    people are being forced to innovate new ways of doing things, as oppose to imitate.


    how do you see it not working?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    ted1 wrote: »
    emmm, now it is driving innovation.

    people are being forced to innovate new ways of doing things, as oppose to imitate.


    how do you see it not working?

    Because patents are being granted for stupid non-innovative things and companies are abusing it to bash each other with, a rectangular phone with rounded corners, slide to unlock etc. The system that allows patents is flawed and until it gets fixed innovation gets stifled. It will only get worse. Companies are arming themselves with patents.

    How do you see it as working?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 153 ✭✭Arrow.


    ted1 wrote: »
    emmm, now it is driving innovation.

    people are being forced to innovate new ways of doing things, as oppose to imitate.


    how do you see it not working?

    Flawed logic.

    There are patents being granted for things that there is just no or little alternative for:

    Take the page turn animation Apple has patented. How is that helping innovation exactly? What more can you do with that without going to unnecessary stupid extremes..

    How far behind would we be if someone had patented the motion of wheels spinning forward (obviously using an extreme example to make a point!). :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    bit monkey wrote: »
    Flawed logic.

    There are patents being granted for things that there is just no or little alternative for:

    Take the page turn animation Apple has patented. How is that helping innovation exactly? What more can you do with that without going to unnecessary stupid extremes..

    How far behind would we be if someone had patented the motion of wheels spinning forward (obviously using an extreme example to make a point!). :)

    Exactly, lucky Henry Ford didn't sue the shít out of everyone who put an engine in a 4 wheel carriage


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    ted1 wrote: »
    emmm, now it is driving innovation.

    people are being forced to innovate new ways of doing things, as oppose to imitate.


    how do you see it not working?

    Patents are of course important, however we're seeing something very sad for the Tech Industry which is that some major companies are abusing their patents and claims to simply take shots at competitors.

    Take the infamous Apple v Samsung case last year. The vast majority of the claims were about small things, from icon shapes, rounded edges on rectangular phones and software issues. Apple even complained about the Phone icon on the Galaxy S2 as breaking their patents.

    Of course, the glorious irony was that Apple had an issue with Android itself, but at the time the major competition on the rise was Samsung were had started to see a real dominance arise in the smartphone market. Now, Sony, HTC, Huawei, Alcatel and many many more companies used icons, phone shapes and so on that were very similar or the same as Samsung, but Apple only ever really focused on Samsung.

    Now focusing on this Rockstar business, Google also bid on the on patents but were consistently outbid by Rockstar, a joining of multiple companies that had by all accounts, no prior interest in going for these patents until Google showed it's interest.

    Rockstar paid well over the expected amount for the patent rights, and even at the time this was declared by various markets as a move against Google and would eventually result in lawsuits.

    Patent trolls and these kinds of stupid law need to end for the sake of real customers and innovation. Not petty grudges and cheap shots.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Patents are of course important, however we're seeing something very sad for the Tech Industry which is that some major companies are abusing their patents and claims to simply take shots at competitors.
    I agree. Patent trolling companies need to be legislated.
    Take the infamous Apple v Samsung case last year. The vast majority of the claims were about small things, from icon shapes, rounded edges on rectangular phones and software issues. Apple even complained about the Phone icon on the Galaxy S2 as breaking their patents.
    Apple was totally legitimate in it's actions. There was no abuse or bad practice.
    Of course, the glorious irony was that Apple had an issue with Android itself, but at the time the major competition on the rise was Samsung were had started to see a real dominance arise in the smartphone market. Now, Sony, HTC, Huawei, Alcatel and many many more companies used icons, phone shapes and so on that were very similar or the same as Samsung, but Apple only ever really focused on Samsung.
    Which made complete sense.
    Now focusing on this Rockstar business, Google also bid on the on patents but were consistently outbid by Rockstar, a joining of multiple companies that had by all accounts, no prior interest in going for these patents until Google showed it's interest.
    Which is perfectly legitimate. Both MS and Apple are legitimate tech companies, they are not patent trolling companies.
    Rockstar paid well over the expected amount for the patent rights, and even at the time this was declared by various markets as a move against Google and would eventually result in lawsuits.
    Still perfectly legitimate. The values were seriously underestimated by the 'experts' which is hardly surprising.
    Patent trolls and these kinds of stupid law need to end for the sake of real customers and innovation. Not petty grudges and cheap shots.
    agree. Except in this case neither Apple nor MS are patent trolls.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Piliger wrote: »
    I agree. Patent trolling companies need to be legislated.

    Apple was totally legitimate in it's actions. There was no abuse or bad practice.

    Which made complete sense.

    Which is perfectly legitimate. Both MS and Apple are legitimate tech companies, they are not patent trolling companies.

    Still perfectly legitimate. The values were seriously underestimated by the 'experts' which is hardly surprising.

    agree. Except in this case neither Apple nor MS are patent trolls.

    Oh please, if Apple was legitimate in its action sueing over phone shape, they should have targeted Huawei, HTC, Nokia and more. Also, the shape of the iPhone nothing special, I have old Nokias that follow the same basic idea. Even the BlackBerry Z10 is insanely similar to the shape of the iPhone 5.

    Hell, Star Trek TNG had tablets that were the same shape as the iPad, so it's hardly anything original.

    Patenting a phone icon for use on a touchscreen phone is just plain wrong, especially considering it's an icon we've known and recognised since at least the 80s with Motorolas first mobile phone.

    These patent lawsuits on both sides are ridiculous and are only serving as a way to One Up rival companies.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭smee again


    Piliger wrote: »

    agree. Except in this case neither Apple nor MS are patent trolls.

    Eh, yes they are, they are much worse than that. They transferred lots of Nokia patents to arm a well known patent trolling company.
    http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/economic-intelligence/2013/03/29/time-for-transparency-on-microsofts-patent-troll-privateering

    MS down through the years have been a very nasty company, they have fought tooth and nail against open standards
    http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2012/04/how-microsoft-lobbied-against-true-open-standards-i/index.htm

    If you're old enough you may remember how their anti-competitive practices crushed Netscape
    http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/09/browser-wars-netscape-internet-explorer.asp

    They are also back to these nasty practices blocking Chrome and Firefox on Windows RT, you are forced us IE


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    smee again wrote: »
    Eh, yes they are, they are much worse than that. They transferred lots of Nokia patents to arm a well known patent trolling company.
    No. They transferred patents they own to a designated company they use to enforce them. Perfectly legitimate.


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