Your view on Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill

RandomName2

The adverts of the Youth Defence group the recent case concerning Savita Halappanavar, the protestation of TDs etc. have all been obvious in the last while - but what do people feel about the controversial bill? 35,000 marched against it the other day - but are they representative?

There's been a couple of straw polls taken about whether people supported the bill or not - but none that have asked people what they believe should be enacted.

What are your views, OP?

wretcheddomain

RandomName2 wrote: »

35,000 marched against it the other day - but are they representative?

Of course not - a good deal of them were children under duress from their dinosaur parents to prop up the numbers.

The remaining adults are Ireland's resident loonies and in no way representative of the vast majority of people i.e. the normal Irish person who wants a morally progressive society and not an archaic degenerative one which the Catholic fascists would like us to descend into.

If I had the keys, I'd open the floodgates to abortion. The only good thing about the current legislation is that you get a weekend away in England.

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

What are your views, OP?

Quite neutral actually. :pac:

Sounds strange for someone posting a poll on it but I'm interested in how much coverage the aspects concerning "suicide ideation" etc. have received. Is it relevant?

krudler

But those marching Saturday warned that women would conspire with sympathetic doctors to fake suicide threats, putting Ireland on a slippery slope to wider abortion access. Ireland is just one of two European Union members, alongside Malta, that outlaws the practice.

Ah YD, keeping those sneaky women in place. and no the 35,000 (or 60,000 if you're to believe YD) aren't a majority representative, a huge chunk of that is kids and oap's. so people either too young or old to have kids.

Cody Pomeray

Full abortion with time limit. No question.

Until the stage of potential viability, I'm on the pro choice side. After the stage of potential viability, I'm on the pro life side.

Nodin

krudler wrote: »

Ah YD, keeping those sneaky women in place.

Like Ninjas, but with more Satan.

Teyla Emmagan

I don't know what you meant by 'Full abortion', but in case you meant up to 9 months I went for the first trimester option. I think it should be available up to whatever the limit is in England.

laoch na mona

i say go for full legislation. my personal view is that abortion should only be carried out in certain circumstances but my opinion only effects me no one else should be bound by it

I never understood why they call it the Protection of Life.

It didn't protect Savita Halappanavar life, did it? If she had been allowed to get an abortion (and have proper medical care), then she would still be alive. One of the stories I always remember in this debate is about a young girl a few years ago who was pregnant; it was found that the baby had a defect and would essentially be born brain-dead. The girl wanted to go to England to get it aborted, but was refused when it was discovered. Where was her protection? Nowhere. She was forced to deliver this baby.

I don't agree that people should be allowed to get abortions willynilly - I'm not going to look down on someone if they decide to do so, because I'm not an obnoxious prick, but in cases where it poses a risk to the mother's life, or where the baby has absolutely no chance at life, or if there is a legitimate suicidal risk to the mother, then of course, abortion should be allowed. If people really want to do so, then it's going to be incredible hard to stop them, especially with plane tickets to England being as cheap as they are.

Instead Ireland should move into the present and realize that the 1950's attitude it has doesn't apply anymore.

Tiddlypeeps

I think the only reason a lot of those people are out marching is because they see this as a slippery slope. They don't want abortion on demand and they feel this is one step towards it.

The big thing I don't understand is why people get so up in arms about the suicide claus. They put forward the argument that lots of highly respected psychologist state that an abortion is unlikely to ever help a woman that is suicidal. If that is true then why is legislating for it an issue. If no psychologist will ever agree that a woman can be saved in that way by having an abortion then the legislation will never need to be used. The legislation pretty much states that IF an abortion can save a woman from suicide then she is entitled to one. If that condition is never met (and if they are right then it won't) then there is no issue. If they are wrong then a woman could die unnecessarily because the legislation won't exist to save her.

I would have liked to see another referendum on this before they passed the bill, mostly because it's been so long since the last ones. It's worrying that the government can just outright ignore than many people.

I'm very much pro choice and I think if it did go to a referendum then the legislation would have passed anyway, but it's pretty worrying that in a supposed democracy that many voices can just be ignored.

Amirani

Full abortion until the point in a pregnancy when the foetus is likely to be able to survive unaided outside the womb. Hence I've gone for the first trimester option.

eviltwin

I went for full abortion. Most abortions happen in the first trimester anyway but where does that leave someone with a pregnancy where they only find out at the 20 week scan the child has a disability or other serious condition?

I would also like to see proper pre and post abortion counselling and more open adoptions where birth parents are still allowed have an ongoing relationship with their children which might make adoption a more attractive option for some people.

I'd also like to see full sex education rolled out to every single school in the country regardless of ethos and free sexual health care so access to contraception is more accessable to people on low incomes.

uch

Where's the 'Atari Jaguar' or 'stick yer Poll up yer jaxie' option? not a valid AH poll without one or the other of these

jank

krudler wrote: »

Ah YD, keeping those sneaky women in place. and no the 35,000 (or 60,000 if you're to believe YD) aren't a majority representative, a huge chunk of that is kids and oap's. so people either too young or old to have kids.

If you put forward that weak argument than only woman of child rearing age should have an opinion on the matter.

krudler

jank wrote: »

If you put forward that weak argument than only woman of child rearing age should have an opinion on the matter.

Didn't say they shouldn't have an opinion on it, but they're not a majority representitive, just because YD ships busloads of them in doesn't mean they speak for the rest of the country.

jank

That is true but neither do those who want abortion on demand represent the wider public either as many here try to claim.

Holsten

Anything that moves towards fully legal abortion is good in my eyes.

Every woman should at least have the choice.

looking_around

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I think the only reason a lot of those people are out marching is because they see this as a slippery slope. They don't want abortion on demand and they feel this is one step towards it.

The big thing I don't understand is why people get so up in arms about the suicide claus. They put forward the argument that lots of highly respected psychologist state that an abortion is unlikely to ever help a woman that is suicidal. If that is true then why is legislating for it an issue. If no psychologist will ever agree that a woman can be saved in that way by having an abortion then the legislation will never need to be used. The legislation pretty much states that IF an abortion can save a woman from suicide then she is entitled to one. If that condition is never met (and if they are right then it won't) then there is no issue. If they are wrong then a woman could die unnecessarily because the legislation won't exist to save her.

I would have liked to see another referendum on this before they passed the bill, mostly because it's been so long since the last ones. It's worrying that the government can just outright ignore than many people.

I'm very much pro choice and I think if it did go to a referendum then the legislation would have passed anyway, but it's pretty worrying that in a supposed democracy that many voices can just be ignored.

Couldn't agree more with you.

I know in my case, I would top myself if I got pregnant. No way would I go through with it. It just wouldn't happen and fcuk anyone else who thinks I'm wrong/foolish/whatever.
They're not the ones who feel it's a parasite that's physically changing them and fcuking them over.

jank

looking_around wrote: »

Couldn't agree more with you.

I know in my case, I would top myself if I got pregnant. No way would I go through with it. It just wouldn't happen and fcuk anyone else who thinks I'm wrong/foolish/whatever.
They're not the ones who feel it's a parasite that's physically changing them and fcuking them over.

Oh FFS, here we go again... When I hear this bull**** I just have to wonder what type of human they are. Sure you can tell me go fcuk myself but I can tell you what a piece of work you are.

Tiddlypeeps

jank wrote: »

Oh FFS, here we go again... When I hear this bull**** I just have to wonder what type of human they are. Sure you can tell me go fcuk myself but I can tell you what a piece of work you are.

Do you believe that blood donation should be mandatory?

Do you believe that donation of non vital organs (like a kidney) should be mandatory?

eviltwin

jank wrote: »

Oh FFS, here we go again... When I hear this bull**** I just have to wonder what type of human they are. Sure you can tell me go fcuk myself but I can tell you what a piece of work you are.

No wonder people feel that the legislation is totally unworkable when someone who admits a pregnancy would make them feel suicidal gets this kind of reply.

looking_around

jank wrote: »

Oh FFS, here we go again... When I hear this bull**** I just have to wonder what type of human they are. Sure you can tell me go fcuk myself but I can tell you what a piece of work you are.

feel free :rolleyes:
But you're not in my body with my life...

Women should not have to travel to the UK to abort babies that will die upon birth. I think that's a disgrace and something that needs looked at.

FG are gutless conservatives.

uch

Surely to God this is all the fault of the Public servants and their great pensions again.

jank

looking_around wrote: »

feel free :rolleyes:
But you're not in my body with my life...

I am objecting to the term that an unborn child is termed a parasite, thus we can reach a moral equivalence that we can legitimately terminate them without any moral dilemmas whatsoever. I do not understand this aggression against pregnancy. Saying that I have only really seen it on this board during the latest abortion debate and its probably more keyboard warrior speak than anything else.

krudler

jank wrote: »

I am objecting to the term that an unborn child is termed a parasite, thus we can reach a moral equivalence that we can legitimately terminate them without any moral dilemmas whatsoever. I do not understand this aggression against pregnancy. Saying that I have only really seen it on this board during the latest abortion debate and its probably more keyboard warrior speak than anything else.

from wiki:

Parasitism is a non-mutual relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the other, the host

It's an apt description whether you like it or not. Some women simply don't want to be pregnant, shouldn't that be enough of a reason? it's not all sunshine and rainbows its a life changing condition for a lot of women. Months of sickness, weight gain, hormonal effects, the birth itself and subsequent complications to her health and body etc etc.

wretcheddomain

Great news to see 71% polled so far are in favour of abortion, either full or up to the first trimester.

To all you fanatics out there, I've got a message for you, clear and loud - You've Lost - your waffle means precious little any more and the percentage of folks in favour of abortion will rise and rise as the older moral dinosaurs die out.

+ 1 to everyone who voted as part of the 71%.

This is a massive kick up the arse to the anti-women brigade and hopefully their ilk will die off quickly alongside their archaic moral positions.

matthew8

I guess I'd legalise it but I really don't care about abortion, and I'd imagine most of the population aren't too bothered either way as well.

eviltwin

jank wrote: »

I am objecting to the term that an unborn child is termed a parasite, thus we can reach a moral equivalence that we can legitimately terminate them without any moral dilemmas whatsoever. I do not understand this aggression against pregnancy. Saying that I have only really seen it on this board during the latest abortion debate and its probably more keyboard warrior speak than anything else.

I don't see any aggression towards pregnancy. Pregnancy can be great if its something you really want and I don't see anyone not supporting women who go ahead with a crisis pregnancy. But it can also be a time of great worry and stress for some women, its a huge decision to have a child, one of the biggest anyone will ever make and you're earlier post sounds like you are telling women who feel its the end of the world to cop themselves on and just deal with it.

looking_around

jank wrote: »

I am objecting to the term that an unborn child is termed a parasite, thus we can reach a moral equivalence that we can legitimately terminate them without any moral dilemmas whatsoever. I do not understand this aggression against pregnancy. Saying that I have only really seen it on this board during the latest abortion debate and its probably more keyboard warrior speak than anything else.

I have always felt this way!
And people who know me, know my aversion to pregnancy. It is what I feel. And you're allowed disagree with me.
The same way I'm allowed to despise the idea of getting pregnant.

A pregnancy would be equal to parasite to me, hence the term. Yeah it often shocks people that I feel this way, but again. They're not in my body, with my life.!

Pumpkinseeds

I'll be completely honest, if I got pregnant I would not hesitate to get on the first available flight to the UK for an abortion. I've never wanted kids, never played with dolls as a child either for that matter. My husband and I just do not want children. I really really resent the fact that I would have to leave the country to have an abortion.

Lets be honest, this bill really isn't going to change anthing for women with unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. All it will mean is that a woman whose life is at risk as a result of a pregnancy may not have to die as a result of laws based on religious beliefs. It is insane that women are still being treated with an 'leave it in Gods hands' kind of attitude.

As it stands the proposed legislation regarding women who are suicidal during pregnancy and who wish to have a termination is unworkable, as the psychiatrists have pointed out. There simply isn't the necessary psychiatric infrastructure needed to work. I don't see the government rushing out to hire the expert psychiatrists necessary. I may be wrong but I think that there are only 2 of them in the country.

StinkyMunkey

+1 for the poll. Ill be intrested to see the type of response the poll gets (even if it is AH).

Aseth

So now that 'abortion is legal'(acc. to pro-lifers) all pregnant women in Ireland will go and have an abortion :rolleyes:

Nodin

Aseth wrote: »

So now that 'abortion is legal'(acc. to pro-lifers) all pregnant women in Ireland will go and have an abortion :rolleyes:

.....it'll be like that World War Z thing, with hordes of them trying to get into the clinic...ages 8 to 80...

shruikan2553

Aseth wrote: »

So now that 'abortion is legal'(acc. to pro-lifers) all pregnant women in Ireland will go and have an abortion :rolleyes:

Well we will have the most liberal abortion laws in the world according to some of them!

Everyone get in line and bring your loyalty card!

Big AK1

A couple of questions...?
At what point does a zygote become reclassed as a foetus?
At what point does a foetus become reclassed as a person; with feelings, sensations and rights (does the foetus have to come out of the womb to be deemed a human being)?
Is there an international / European classification for anything like this in place?

Corkfeen

jank wrote: »

That is true but neither do those who want abortion on demand represent the wider public either as many here try to claim.

The people protesting were protesting legislation that we have had two referendums on. The bill is unrelated to 'abortion on demand' as that would require another referendum and has nothing to do with it, no matter how many times people recite 'opening the floodgates' phrase.... There is not truth to it.

SureYWouldntYa

my view is simple, if ya dont want an abortion, then don't have one

ssshhh91

(first trimester) every woman should have the right too make that decision for themselves. if people dont like abortion..dont use it...but dont take the right from woman who would like an abortion even if it is only as an option!

wretcheddomain

As I was saying, the first thing I'm going to do when I wake up tomorrow morning is have an abortion.

Pass the legislation!

matthew8

matthew8 wrote: »

I guess I'd legalise it but I really don't care about abortion, and I'd imagine most of the population aren't too bothered either way as well.

Err, I'd say you're wrong there. The majority of people are very bothered about abortion legislation. Not only on a matter of principle and wanting to do what's right, but also on a level that it has the potential to affect any living Irish citizen personally.

How you could think that the majority of the population don't care is beyond me. I'm not trying to criticise you, I'm just genuinely confused as to how you wouldn't have any reason to be bothered about it. What if one day you/a partner/a family member/a friend needs an abortion? Would that not affect you?

Edit: Forgot to actually add an opinion! I can sympathise with pro-lifers, if they think that abortion is murder, but I'm pro-choice. What I can't understand is people who are willing to accept abortion only in cases of rape or illness of the child - surely if it's murder, it's murder in every instance?

kraggy

I think the bill goes too far in one respect and not far enough in others.

I disagree with the suicide clause but can't for the life of me understand why they didn't include clauses for rape and incest.

I know it's not in the bill, but foetal abnormalities is probably the most difficult one to call. It's very subjective and unpredictable in terms of whether or not the child could live a decent life.

bleepp

This Bill is very very badly put together, wouldn't you think the people who run this country could have done a better job. Like most I think terminations should be permitted where there is a risk to the life of a woman but the suicide clause is complete nonsense. It says that a woman who is suicidal should be entitled to an abortion, with the assumption that then her life may be saved. But a woman who is suicidal will still be feeling that way after a termination in fact research shows her mental health will probably be worse off afterwards and therefore may be pushed further into a darker place.

Abortion to treat a suicidal woman? Nonsense. And that is what the Bill is suggesting. Best practice would suggest a "treatment plan" should be put in place, as is the case in normal circumstances where suicide is being treated but the Minister rejected this. So instead of offering a plan to treat the pregnant woman we offer an abortion?

So we have a case in this Country where the Dáil is sitting all night to pass a
Bill that contains a ludicrous sub section which ultimately states that suicidal pregnant women can be medically treated with an abortion and the same TD's couldn't be bothered to deal effectively with the Banking enquirey, fiscal disaster or their restoration of our economy. But they have all night to deal with an flawed Bill. If they put as much effort and time into these issue we might not be as bad off.

I do support the Bill in theory, but section 9 is simply unnecessary and dangerous.

1ZRed

There's no brain activity until 12 weeks, so up until then it's just a ball of cells to me and I don't see the ethical issues of granting an abortion prior to that 12 week mark.

That'd be my cut off point, just because it's a more straight forward and simplistic way of looking at it, but I'd still opt for full abortion legislation because who am I to appose it?

Also a poster pointed out fatal abnormalities that can show up beyond that 12 week marker. I think it's nothing but sick to ask a woman to deliver a child for 9 months knowing for a portion of that time that she will give birth to an essiantially dead child in some cases. Pro-life but no humanity in so many of these cases.

feargale

Is abortion a question of public or private morality, and if it's a bit of both at what point does it cease to be one and become the other?

feargale

Is abortion a question of public or private morality, and if it's a bit of both, at what point does it cease to be the one and become the other?

bleepp

feargale wrote: »

Is abortion a question of public or private morality, and if it's a bit of both at what point does it cease to be one and become the other?

Morality in its essence is public. Someone debating a moral issue has to take others into account. Abortion, euthanasia, contraception, death penalty, IVF. It deal with everyone.

Private morality? No such thing IMO.

pappyodaniel

via Rubberbandits

Right now in Ireland, foolish men In suits are staying up all night to pass laws about women's bodies while opponents use magic outside a gate to try and stop them.

simply simple

RATHER THAN PUBLIC OPINION i WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE OPINION OF THE MOTHERS WHO HAVE PASSED A COMPLICATED PREGNACY OR HAVE LOST THEIR BABY DUE TO COMPLICATIONS OR HAVE A DISABLED CHILD AND THE OPINIONS OF DOCTORS AND NURSES (THEIR RELIGIOUS VIEWS KEPT ASIDE) WHICH ARE REALLY IMPORTANT TO SHAPE A CONCREATE VIEW OF THE RISKS AND CONSEQUENCES OF EITHER OPTIONS. I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVENT BEEN PARENTS AT ALL OR HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH A CHILD WITHOUT BEARING MAJOR RISKS HAVE NO SAY HERE. THEY ARE NOT AT ALL AWARE OF THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN REALLY. RUDE BUT TRUE.
REGARDING MY OPINION I FACED DEATH BUT LUCKY TO MAKE THROUGH AT THE TIME OF MY DELIVERY WHICH WAS THE CASE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MY PREGNANCY AND NOT ONE DOCTOR MENTIONED OF THE LIFE THREATENING RISK TO US, I WOULD SAY THE ABORTION BILL- I MEAN PROTECTION OF LIFE BILL SHOULD PASS (FULL ABORTION). THERE IS NO ONE COMING TO SUPPORT THOSE KIDS WHO MAKE IT TO THIS WORLD BUT LOSE THEIR MOTHER ON THE WAY. LET LEGISLATION BE ESTABLISHED TO BE FAIR, IT IS NOT TAKING AWAY THE RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO DONT WANT ABORTION BUT IT IS DEFINITELY VIOLATING THE RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO DESERVE THIS BILL TO BE PASSED.

pappyodaniel

landslide. Now can we move on with the real issues please?